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The Owners

Mascot88

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Under Kenny and Brendan we got into the bad habit of conceding 50 goals a season, in Jurgen’s first season, (in his first 1.5 seasons actually because we were well on the way to conceding 50 goals again) we did the same. Jurgen, as utterly brilliant as he is, got no more out of the likes of Skrtel, Sakho, Mingolet et al than Brendan did. That’s just a fact.
I don’t think it is actually. We noticeably tightened up at the back in Klopp’s first 18 months. Van Dijk and Alisson (along with Gomez and Matip, who everyone always overlook) were the real game changers, but Klopp did got a bit more out of the defenders he inherited.
 

Prolix

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One long term injury to any of our front 3 and our season is done. They have played a hell of a lot of football over the last 2 and a half years as well. Bobby looks like he has played 2 and a half years none stop,
Now I'm confused. Is it the squad players, the marquee defenders, or the forwards who win you things?

Or is football a team sport, which Jürgen Klopp has rapturously demonstrated for years now, and yet we continue to systematically undervalue the importance of improvement through coaching?

Anyway, you are not arguing in good faith. You have your position -- 'football clubs must spend' -- and you are working backwards from this conclusion to support it in whichever way is most convenient at the moment.
 

iftikhar

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A long term injury to one of our front three will definitely hamper our performance. We have gone through periods of
Mane injury and suspension
Salah injury
Firmino loses of form
TAA injury
Henderson injury
Not to mention, departure of Coutinho.

On every occasion some other player have stepped up. There will be, naturally, drop in performance; but it won't be the end of the world.
 

Billy Stevo's left boot

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I don’t think it is actually. We noticeably tightened up at the back in Klopp’s first 18 months. Van Dijk and Alisson (along with Gomez and Matip, who everyone always overlook) were the real game changers, but Klopp did got a bit more out of the defenders he inherited.
In Jurgen’s first season we conceded exactly 50 goals, in his second season we did improve but still conceded 42 goals, the following season we had conceded 24 goals by Christmas and looked well on the way to another 45-50 type haul but we signed VVD in the January and when he broke into the team as I said the brakes came on. We finished that season conceding just 38 goals, first half of the season without Virgil we conceded 24, second half of the season with VVD we conceded 14.
That was with Karius in goal as well, he played the second half of that season. Christmas 2017 was the point where Jurgen ran out of patience with Mingolet.
So in summary -

Jurgen’s first season - same as Rodgers
Jurgen’s second season - bit better than Rodgers
1st half of Jurgen’s third season - same as Rodgers

Moral of the story is you can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear, Brendan couldnt and Jurgen couldn’t either.
 

Iluvatar

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In Jurgen’s first season we conceded exactly 50 goals, in his second season we did improve but still conceded 42 goals, the following season we had conceded 24 goals by Christmas and looked well on the way to another 45-50 type haul but we signed VVD in the January and when he broke into the team as I said the brakes came on. We finished that season conceding just 38 goals, first half of the season without Virgil we conceded 24, second half of the season with VVD we conceded 14.
That was with Karius in goal as well, he played the second half of that season. Christmas 2017 was the point where Jurgen ran out of patience with Mingolet.
So in summary -

Jurgen’s first season - same as Rodgers
Jurgen’s second season - bit better than Rodgers
1st half of Jurgen’s third season - same as Rodgers

Moral of the story is you can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear, Brendan couldnt and Jurgen couldn’t either.
Wait are you at any level comparing Bodgers to GODKLOPP? fucking hell.
 

Mascot88

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In Jurgen’s first season we conceded exactly 50 goals, in his second season we did improve but still conceded 42 goals, the following season we had conceded 24 goals by Christmas and looked well on the way to another 45-50 type haul but we signed VVD in the January and when he broke into the team as I said the brakes came on. We finished that season conceding just 38 goals, first half of the season without Virgil we conceded 24, second half of the season with VVD we conceded 14.
That was with Karius in goal as well, he played the second half of that season. Christmas 2017 was the point where Jurgen ran out of patience with Mingolet.
So in summary -

Jurgen’s first season - same as Rodgers
Jurgen’s second season - bit better than Rodgers
1st half of Jurgen’s third season - same as Rodgers

Moral of the story is you can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear, Brendan couldnt and Jurgen couldn’t either.
I’m not saying Big Virg wasn’t transformational. I’m just saying the defence was starting to tighten up a bit. Which it was.

From memory I remember starting to feel a bit more relaxed on set pieces than I ever did under Brendan before the arrival of Van Dijk.
 

Billy Stevo's left boot

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Wait are you at any level comparing Bodgers to GODKLOPP? fucking hell.
Of course not, I think you are being very disrespectful to Brendan calling him Bodgers though. Like him or. not Brendan inherited a team that finished 8th and within a couple of years took it to within an ace of winning the title playing some of the best football I ever saw from any Liverpool side along the way (and I go back a long way).
That opening 20 minutes against Arsenal when they came here as league leaders was as good as anything I’ve ever seen, we absolutely blitzed them, we scored 4 (probably could have scored 10) in the opening half hour. It wasn’t a one off either, that forward line of Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho and Sterling that Brendan put together did a number on a lot of sides including Newcastle when we inflicted on them their heaviest home defeat since 1926.
He was still in his 30’s when he got the job here and went closer to winning the title than anyone in the previous 25 years, in fact if he was competing on a level playing field FFP wise he may have well won it.
if you call someone who took us to within a whisker of the title ‘bodgers‘ I’d hate to see what you call the likes of Don Welsh and Phil Taylor etc.
 

Billy Stevo's left boot

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I’m not saying Big Virg wasn’t transformational. I’m just saying the defence was starting to tighten up a bit. Which it was.

From memory I remember starting to feel a bit more relaxed on set pieces than I ever did under Brendan before the arrival of Van Dijk.
The defence was still nowhere near title winning standard, the arrival of VVD was a seminal moment in the modern history of this club.
 

Red over the water

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We won the title because all the ingredients came together at the same time. Manager. Hunger. Desire. Top quality throughout all departments of the team. A blend of youth and experience. Expensive signings. Mid signings. Cheap signings. Promoting players through the ranks from within. Good scouting and negotiation in the market. Excellent coaching. Etc.

It's a nonsense argument to say we won the title because of this, or that, because it all came together. Over the years since we last won it, we've had some of the ingredients to win a title, but not all of them... not all together, at the same time.
 
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Lowton_Red

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Also interesting. And for the record, my post was very much made in a vacuum, with no opinion of what FSG is doing with their money. I had no idea such an exorbitant ‘intermediary’ line item existed, as @Kopstar eloquently pointed out.

I’m genuinely interested in the economics and business side of football. So when I say “interesting” I mean it as plainly as that.
I'm also interested in the machinations of football finances, who'd have guessed!

Sorry if my post came across as a criticism of yours; it was not intended. I was just pointing out the error (one of several) in Chatra's thread regarding how/where agents' fees are included in the accounts.
 

Kopstar

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I'm also interested in the machinations of football finances, who'd have guessed!

Sorry if my post came across as a criticism of yours; it was not intended. I was just pointing out the error (one of several) in Chatra's thread regarding how/where agents' fees are included in the accounts.
Mo's not bad though, "most of his analysis is accurate" ;)
 

big noyd

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van dijk came in (as our alleged best player, coutinho, went out no less), and from that point on we were a serious team. it'd be hard to overstate his impact

somebody more levelheaded than me says FSG have rescued the brand & don't really care too much about winning, points to the way they're blowing up the red sox and says they're not signing thiago or sarr or anyone of note during the rona
 

redfanman

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van dijk came in (as our alleged best player, coutinho, went out no less), and from that point on we were a serious team. it'd be hard to overstate his impact

somebody more levelheaded than me says FSG have rescued the brand & don't really care too much about winning, points to the way they're blowing up the red sox and says they're not signing thiago or sarr or anyone of note during the rona
I'm not sure that stands up to scrutiny - I thought the red sox issue was down to their wage bill being over the cap or something so they had to make drastic cuts?

As for us, if FSG were not serious about winning, then i don't see why they would reinvest so much money back into the squad on wages or into infrastructure, such as the training ground.
 

Hope in your heart

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But yes lets stack our club with debt to make marginal increase transfers.
This is a devastating blow for the PL clubs. We'll have to see if it will influence other broadcasting contracts. But one thing is sure: from today on, transfer fees and player contracts contracts between English clubs and other clubs and players will never be reach again the same heights than until yesterday.

And as has been said, this vindicates fsg's prudence. But we'll suffer from this, make no mistake. The only clubs which will get on with big spending are the toy-clubs of rich owners. But we are run on the basis of self-sustainability, so it will have a significant impact.
 

Kopstar

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I'd like us to bring in Thiago (keep Gini), sell the players who are surplus (Wilson, Grujic, Origi, Shaqiri, Awoniyi, Ojo, Phillips, Karius), add quality to the forward line and someone either who's solid and experienced at CB or is young with bags of potential. If we sold all those players for reasonable fees (plus the £15m we got for Ejaria and Lovren) then maybe, simplistically, we bring in £100m or more.

Tsimikas £12m, Thiago for £27m, £61m between the other two spots? Certainly conceivable that we could have a negative net spend. All without borrowing or over extending into subsequent budgets. I think that's prudent.

However, I also wouldn't mind if we did nothing further at all, given the current circumstances. We've filled the one glaring hole in the squad. If we have to get through this year by playing our second string and risk not going very far in the domestic cup competitions, so be it.

Next year our position relative to our rivals could be extremely strong. Our spending in the summer of 2018 will have dropped out of the 3 year FFP reporting period and we'll have plenty of scope to go big again, at a time when our rivals will likely be constrained. But when the financial outlook would be much more certain.

That might present a clearer run on players like Sancho and, dare I say it, Mbappé. Upemacano's release clause comes into effect.

It's not an exaggeration to say that this next 12 months could financially break clubs. Tottenham must be particularly vulnerable but I'm also thinking of United here, as unthinkable as that may be. West Ham, Villa, Leeds, Wolves...these clubs could also find themselves in considerable difficulty. Even if they stay up. If they get relegated then I think they're fucked.
 
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Iluvatar

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Of course not, I think you are being very disrespectful to Brendan calling him Bodgers though. Like him or. not Brendan inherited a team that finished 8th and within a couple of years took it to within an ace of winning the title playing some of the best football I ever saw from any Liverpool side along the way (and I go back a long way).
That opening 20 minutes against Arsenal when they came here as league leaders was as good as anything I’ve ever seen, we absolutely blitzed them, we scored 4 (probably could have scored 10) in the opening half hour. It wasn’t a one off either, that forward line of Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho and Sterling that Brendan put together did a number on a lot of sides including Newcastle when we inflicted on them their heaviest home defeat since 1926.
He was still in his 30’s when he got the job here and went closer to winning the title than anyone in the previous 25 years, in fact if he was competing on a level playing field FFP wise he may have well won it.
if you call someone who took us to within a whisker of the title ‘bodgers‘ I’d hate to see what you call the likes of Don Welsh and Phil Taylor etc.
Rodgers is shit.
 

big noyd

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are they going to find another broadcast partner in china, or does that mean a revenue stream is gone?
 

Mascot88

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It's not an exaggeration to say that this next 12 months could financially break clubs. Tottenham must be particularly vulnerable but I'm also thinking of United here, as unthinkable as that may be. West Ham, Villa, Leeds, Wolves...these clubs could also find themselves in considerable difficulty. Even if they stay up. If they get relegated then I think they're fucked.
Couldn’t agree more. Spurs are the one’s I really fear for. That shiny new stadium with no-one allowed in it. All that cheese going mouldy.
 

Iluvatar

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He's really not.
He isn't Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola, but I'll argue he's better than Mourinho at the moment, and probably one of the top 5-6 in the Premier League at the moment and often gets better results than the talent of his team probably warrants.
Urgh he is an arrogant dick, he is so far detached from what a Liverpool manager should be.

Decent coach, can't manage a team to save his life.
 

big noyd

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Couldn’t agree more. Spurs are the one’s I really fear for. That shiny new stadium with no-one allowed in it. All that cheese going mouldy.
first they had to delay the opening, then they couldn't win there. now they can't have spectators, and poch is already gone

as someone who thoroughly detests their core of players (kane & lamela especially) i think it's great
 

gr_sounder

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Urgh he is an arrogant dick, he is so far detached from what a Liverpool manager should be.

Decent coach, can't manage a team to save his life.
Wow - well, at least you've made your opinion clear and easy to spot. No need to try and have that discussion.
That said, your opinion differs from mine.

Rodgers was slapped with the descriptor "arrogant" by the media and it seems a portion of the fanbase of Liverpool took heartily to it because he wasn't the manager they wanted. Fans of teams he doesn't manage also seem to love using it.
From what I've seen, the biggest fault he had was being willing to stand up for himself and his team when reporters took crack shots at him or the team.

Regardless, he managed to get Swansea to the Premier League.
He set the foundation for Liverpool returning to top part of the table and almost won the league in a season where noone expected them to challenge.
He took 2 titles with Celtic.
He finished 5th with Leicester.
Along the way he won the LMA Manager of the year with Liverpool, and the Scotland manager of the year with Celtic.

That's not bad managing. You may not like him, and that's your choice (though I'm willing to bet you don't know him), but he's not a bad manager.