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THE REALITY

mappen1977

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Sep 4, 2010
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413
I have finally come to terms with where we are as a club, a mid table team.

Took me a long time this did, we can still hold our own against the best no doubt in one off games but if you try to shed the obvious bias that grips every fan, it is pretty obvious.

Brendan rodgers for me has a bit of a poisoned chalice at the minute. A huge expectant fan base expecting us perform. The reality is the guy has to play kids (talented though) in most games because we just dont have a team capable of competing at the top level anymore. Look at the table, it never lies. Tactics for all they are worth in my opinion always have less of an impact then player quality.

I only hope people take this into reflection when considering our fortunes, their is a host of reasons why we have ended up in this position and it is gonna be a hard slug out of it too. All I ever hear is excuses, hard luck stories and sheer bias, I do it myself.... One positive though, wins do seem all the more sweeter nowadays.
 

mappen1977

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Yeeks, Evertons a CL caliber club and West Brom's going to the EL then.
Yeeks, Everton were better then us last season and have been in the CL before. Also WBA have a shot at EL if they keep performing as they have.
 

DEVGRU

Banned for the umpteenth time
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Jan 18, 2007
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Mid table mentality.
Don't you think in difficult times, we must all pull together sahib and fight for one club, one country and one nation? Gandhi fought for mother india and he won...but with intelligent tactics.

Freedom was never won with 1 victory. And remember, we do not have a god given right over other clubs.
 

RedJacko

TIA Youth Team
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Mar 27, 2011
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620
I think your over reacting a bit, I personally think what we are lacking can be improved in two transfer windows max. The foundations are there, we have a great manager, great young players, and a bunch of commited, loyal, quality players.

the league table doesn't make good reading, no, but we haven't even reached Christmas yet. As the above have said, West Brom are NOT a European competing team and Everton will not finish in the top four. Its ups and downs we have to go through.
 

DEVGRU

Banned for the umpteenth time
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I think your over reacting a bit, I personally think what we are lacking can be improved in two transfer windows max. The foundations are there, we have a great manager, great young players, and a bunch of commited, loyal, quality players.

the league table doesn't make good reading, no, but we haven't even reached Christmas yet. As the above have said, West Brom are NOT a European competing team and Everton will not finish in the top four. Its ups and downs we have to go through.
He does over-react but we are used to it. He wants Rodgers replaced along with Borini. *sigh*

Everton will fade as we head into the second half of the season and West Brom look like they are going from strenght to strenght; true test for them is if they can beat the other lesser sides or not...consistently over the season.
 

FreakLFC

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Oct 30, 2012
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318
why will Everton fade? did u look in the future?
lets just worry about our team. We are below both of them.
aren't you worried about us fading?
 

TFC

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Don't you think in difficult times, we must all pull together sahib and fight for one club, one country and one nation? Gandhi fought for mother india and he won...but with intelligent tactics.

Freedom was never won with 1 victory. And remember, we do not have a god given right over other clubs.
Why are you trolling him? And why are you bringing India up again as the source of your trolling of this one poster?
 

DEVGRU

Banned for the umpteenth time
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why will Everton fade? did u look in the future?
lets just worry about our team. We are below both of them.
aren't you worried about us fading?
Look at the stats over the past 5 seasons.

Us fading? In what sense? As a football club? No. Because we are living within our means and spending only what we can afford which is how it should be. And we have owners who are going to re-furbish Anfield which is also smart because it doesn't put us in massive debt and allows us a lot of flexibility without affecting our yearly transfer budgets and wage structures.

As a top 5 club? Yes because we can't spend money the way we did in the past. But at least we are not USD$1 billion in debt like our neighbours 50 miles up the road.
 

FreakLFC

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Oct 30, 2012
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318
Problem is John Henry is making us think mediocre as well. Not because we don't stand a chance, but because John and Co will never think of buying players like Cavani, Falcao, Neymar. These sort of players are expensive but they will definitely improve the team. Its two steps forward in my opinion. Will John ever talk to their agents? Probably Not. Wage is too high.

So instead, we have good players, no doubt, in Assaidi, Allen, Borini who are not top class, but affordable, usable players who will (pls make note--"will") improve but god alone knows when.
Our transfer fund will be around 15 million hopefully and we have to buy least 3 players and ship 2 mediocre players. Its all mediocre players going out and same type coming in.

These days I am forced to think mediocre. I have to think which striker from a Moroccan league is available for 5 million. Because apparently LFC will give these players imported pitch to practice.
 

a0001matt

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Every manager post-Rafa has wanted to improve the club. It is maybe too early to say definitively, but only Kenny and Rodgers have looked capable in doing so. This is a really difficult statement, but so far Rodgers' vision and actions at the club are more convincing than Kenny's decisions entering a fresh season.

We could very well be stuck 5-9 in the table for a few more seasons, but I see what Rodgers is doing as a genuine attempt at reforming the club. Kenny tried and gave it his best, but too many of his calls (or missed opportunities) in the market and on the pitch did not pan out for him.

And of course, credit is given where credit is due. The successes of current managers are often indebted to those who preceded them.
 

DEVGRU

Banned for the umpteenth time
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Problem is John Henry is making us think mediocre as well. Not because we don't stand a chance, but because John and Co will never think of buying players like Cavani, Falcao, Neymar. These sort of players are expensive but they will definitely improve the team. Its two steps forward in my opinion. Will John ever talk to their agents? Probably Not. Wage is too high.

So instead, we have good players, no doubt, in Assaidi, Allen, Borini who are not top class, but affordable, usable players who will (pls make note--"will") improve but god alone knows when.
Our transfer fund will be around 15 million hopefully and we have to buy least 3 players and ship 2 mediocre players. Its all mediocre players going out and same type coming in.

These days I am forced to think mediocre. I have to think which striker from a Moroccan league is available for 5 million. Because apparently LFC will give these players imported pitch to practice.
1. John Henry is practicing intelligent spending and ensuring we do not go into debt again the way we did before. We almost went bankrupt.

2. Why would John Henry talk to agents? It is not his job to do so. That's Ian Ayre's role.

3." Assaidi, Allen, Borini who are not top class". I think many people will disagree with you about this.

4. "..but I see what Rodgers is doing as a genuine attempt at reforming the club." He is. But rome was never built over 1 football season.

5."... credit is given where credit is due. The successes of current managers are often indebted to those who preceded them." Yes and No. Of this current batch, only 2 remain from the Houllier era. 5 remain from Rafa'a time (players he signed) but then again, if you include the likes of Suso, Sterling and Pachecho whom he signed to the youth academy, then its 8. Of Kenny's signings, only 1 can be deemed an absolute success. 3 have been abject failures.

Are the team playing to rafa, kenny or hodgons's tactics? Nope. So, Brendan is making or breaking it on his own.
 

DEVGRU

Banned for the umpteenth time
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Every manager post-Rafa has wanted to improve the club. It is maybe too early to say definitively, but only Kenny and Rodgers have looked capable in doing so. This is a really difficult statement, but so far Rodgers' vision and actions at the club are more convincing than Kenny's decisions entering a fresh season.

We could very well be stuck 5-9 in the table for a few more seasons, but I see what Rodgers is doing as a genuine attempt at reforming the club. Kenny tried and gave it his best, but too many of his calls (or missed opportunities) in the market and on the pitch did not pan out for him.

And of course, credit is given where credit is due. The successes of current managers are often indebted to those who preceded them.
Might be a different story for Kenny and Steve Clarke if our players had put the ball away as easily as they kept hitting the woodwork all season.
 

FreakLFC

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318
I am talking about the transition in change to our 'mentality'. Good for John to implement all that.
In the end he wants us to buy mediocre, right?
So that changes my mentality. I am more interested in the look out for mediocre players these days to see who could play for LFC.

Why dont we have thought like -"let's break the bank for Cavani or whoever?" or "Alright il pay this chap a bit more but i want him coz he's top quality?"

We don't anymore. Unfortunately.

Btw i looked up a Morocan league player the other day. He is good. His name is Khallid W. And he will cost us only 600,00. How affordable?

We have all changed. Its true. We all think mediocre and dream of being big. Typical mid table.
Hopefully one of these mediocre players will be a lucky enough punt some day.
 

TFC

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Why dont we have thought like -"let's break the bank for Cavani or whoever?" or "Alright il pay this chap a bit more but i want him coz he's top quality?"

We don't anymore. Unfortunately.

Just curious, prior to Andy Carroll when was/did LFC a team that paid big money for big name stars? I don't mean up and coming stars but established stars?
 

FreakLFC

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Oct 30, 2012
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Just curious, prior to Andy Carroll when was/did LFC a team that paid big money for big name stars? I don't mean up and coming stars but established stars?
Never. Fortunately we were lucky enough we didnt need a big star that time. Thank God.
But now is the time. We should be doing it now. We dont belong where we are. Unfortunately, this time we don't even have the capacity and its a shame. Thats all.

The topic of this thread is REALITY.
 

DeathOrGlory

Fortune Favours the Gegenpress
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Apr 29, 2011
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We have a mid table team, but not a mid table club.

If we lose Suarez next summer, then I'd be looking to agree with you Equiliser. We're definitely on the road to mid table mediocrity, but it IS possible to pull us out of the tail spin.

We need backing from higher up, and to get rid of players who are chewing up wages for nothing to leave. They are holding us back. We then need to back the manager with players who will fit his system and have the right mentality, like Suarez and Osama, and then put faith in our young manager to pull the team back up the table.

For all those people talking about Everton not at a higher level than us, and that Europa League is not at West Brom's level are flawed. The LFC fans of the early 90's thought we would get back to where we once were, and the Leeds fan of a decade ago never thought they would be where they are in 2012. Let's not even think about Rangers.

It can happen to us.
 

DEVGRU

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Freak, prior to Andy Carroll when was/did LFC a team that paid big money for big name stars? I don't mean up and coming stars but established stars?

Never. Fortunately we were lucky enough we didnt need a big star that time. REALITY.
Mascherano-20million quid
Torres-20million quid
 

sami

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Equalizer, I understand your thought process. This goes through every fans head, post-match, the morning after a match, any morning at all, going to bed, on the way to work/college, it happens to every LFC fan. It doesn't warrant a thread. Don't create a thread about everything that goes through you head.
 

lancashirelad

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Oct 31, 2012
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“Liverpool have no chance of reaching the top 4 and need to just accept that they’re now a mid-table team” a comment I read recently on this and other sites.

Personally, I’m inclined to disagree. Looking at our team, it’s easy to see why people might think that we’re a team on the decline, most shots off-target, countless missed penalty kicks not to mention probably a premier league record for hitting the woodwork this calendar year.

While I understand we have been plagued by injuries and the controversial Suarez up front, who can’t buy a penalty even though, by my count, we should have had 6 in our 10 games, Suarez playing as a lone striker in a 4-5-1, or 4-4-2, too many times is not what Rodgers would chose to do, and not what we should be doing

Positive, attacking, pass-and-move football is what we’re used to seeing and our new manager might see a more consistent attacking line up in January. With managers like Roberto Martinez with his favored 3-4-3 passing style and Andre Villas-Boas’ infamous high-pressing, offensive football. Our future is very much an interesting prospect in this respect. Though many of our squad certainly have the room for improvement I believe that our club could definitely adjust to one of these styles of play and flourish from it under Rodgers who tends to try to mix both, a mistake in my mind.

Another couple of burning questions on many people’s lips this season thus far is “Would you trade the Europa and/or F.A. cup for a place higher in the league?”, “Does Liverpool’s league position below Everton suggest a shift of power on Merseyside?”. Don’t get me wrong, as bitter a pill it is to swallow, finishing below our bitter-rivals at the end of the season will be hard to take, Everton’s position in the league bears little significance at this stage of the season and they will achieve nothing by finishing above us in the Premier League, even less-so having lost to us on 3 of the last 4 occasions this year.

There is no better feeling like watching your team lift a trophy after a difficult campaign, but are our priorities in the right place?
Winning Silverware is important, perhaps more so to Liverpool Football Club than any other team in the world and the feeling I had when we went out of the Carling cup like disorganized, under-strength championship side was painful, it was tough to take, but would I trade this for 4th or 5th place?, Not sure?

Because this question is redundant, there is no trade-off for poor league form. In my opinion this season we have much more to gain by fielding our younger players in tournaments such as the Europa League and Domestic Cups however. Players like Raheem Stirling, “Suso”, Jon Flannagan and last seasons Young Player of the Year Martin Kelly have all shown that they’re capable of competing for places with our first team players, it’s time to give them a chance to prove that our outstanding youth system can produce world-class talent. This is more important that any hypothetical trade-offs moving forward.

So how much change do we need to make to make sure 2012-13′s season proves to be a more successful one than it is? In my opinion very little change needs to be made, we just need to make sure that it is made in the right places. Yes, there are players that probably need to be removed from the first team squad; the likes of Cole, Henderson and possibly Borini have done little to demonstrate to fans that they are of the quality that we require to achieve our aspirations. But there is much more to be considered than just buying and selling players.

We need a new, ambitious style, we need our swagger back (and it would seem we are s-l-o-w-l-y getting it) with a new philosophy of which to build a stable foundation for the club grow from. Most importantly of all we need to remember that we are a football power like none-other in the world, we are not a mid-table team, we are Liverpool Football Club. We are the best club in the world, we just need a 10% to 25% improvement in front of goal and we’ll be back!
YNWA
 

Dane

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I used to worry about Man Utd, Arsenal and Everton finishing above us.
Now I worry about us beating teams like Swansea, Fulham and WBA
 

indianscouser

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1. John Henry is practicing intelligent spending and ensuring we do not go into debt again the way we did before. We almost went bankrupt.
Intelligent? apart from suarez and allen, what signing do you call intelligent?
The irony is, the club in debt are the clubs that are winning.
The only way we will ever come to know if the likes of henderson,downing,carroll are good signing if they can contribute something to the team. And i think the manager makes a huge difference. BR doesnt rate any of them. This for me is the problem, you give the previous manager 60mill, you sack him[when he is doing a decent job], and the new maneger doesnt rate the previous managers signing.
Heck, if you want value for money look at rafas signing.,, every bloody good thing associated with this team has come because of him.
Pepe,agger,skrtel,johnson,lucas,jonjo,sterling,suso.
I firmly beleive its the manager who shapes up the team. And i am pretty sure, kenny had basically the same team and still did better. Heck, rafa with the peanuts he got, forged us into a european power house.
You dont have to reinvent yourself, we already had a successfull model, all it needed was some common sense, which unfortunately isnt common now a days.
The basic underlying fact is, great managers are winners. And all they ask is some support from their owners.
Mate, this is my take. please correct me if i am wrong.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
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I used to worry about Man Utd, Arsenal and Everton finishing above us.
Now I worry about us beating teams like Swansea, Fulham and WBA
Sounds more like a relegation team to me than a mid-table one right there....
 

DEVGRU

Banned for the umpteenth time
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Intelligent? apart from suarez and allen, what signing do you call intelligent?
The irony is, the club in debt are the clubs that are winning.
The only way we will ever come to know if the likes of henderson,downing,carroll are good signing if they can contribute something to the team. And i think the manager makes a huge difference. BR doesnt rate any of them. This for me is the problem, you give the previous manager 60mill, you sack him[when he is doing a decent job], and the new maneger doesnt rate the previous managers signing.
Heck, if you want value for money look at rafas signing.,, every bloody good thing associated with this team has come because of him.
Pepe,agger,skrtel,johnson,lucas,jonjo,sterling,suso.
I firmly beleive its the manager who shapes up the team. And i am pretty sure, kenny had basically the same team and still did better. Heck, rafa with the peanuts he got, forged us into a european power house.
You dont have to reinvent yourself, we already had a successfull model, all it needed was some common sense, which unfortunately isnt common now a days.
The basic underlying fact is, great managers are winners. And all they ask is some support from their owners.
Mate, this is my take. please correct me if i am wrong.

When rafa was manager, it was different. Things are different now. Why? Because of Man City. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, has moved down 1 position on the list...we may have been a 2nd or 3rd or 4th ranked side in the league..but we are now at best, a 5th or 6th for the simple fact Everton and Newcastle bought better players, Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea have spent a hell of a lot of cash to upgrade their squads and...we can't compete.
 

indianscouser

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When rafa was manager, it was different. Things are different now. Why? Because of Man City. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, has moved down 1 position on the list...we may have been a 2nd or 3rd or 4th ranked side in the league..but we are now at best, a 5th or 6th for the simple fact Everton and Newcastle bought better players, Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea have spent a hell of a lot of cash to upgrade their squads and...we can't compete.
True to some extent. Its not that we didnt spend either? You are forgetting arsenal. They have sold their best players, and yet they are capable of top 4 finish. Dont we right them off every season? Comparing to them, i think we should have done better, considering we were better than them during that period.