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The TIA Off the Ball Debate

Anfield rd Dreamer

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nope.

if thats what we are trying to emulate then i give up.

and im not taking you out of context either, the words 'swansea' and 'liverpools vision' is ridiculous, we can debate all decade long, but in this very working mans game of action not words;

just dont aim to be swansea.

just dont do it LFC.

we won the european cup 7 years ago with a squad not a million miles away from ours right now, sometimes you cant sell your dreams ona future that might never happen.

demand results from the club today.
You missed the point.

Against Swansea we had the better players.

They beat us because their system works seemlessly as a well oiled machine and ours is juddering away like chitty chitty bang bang.

Once our system becomes as smooth over time as theirs is we will be quite a force simply because as good as they are as a unit, our players are mostly of a higher standard so once our players click as a unit they will be phenomenal.
 

Hope in your heart

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You missed the point.

Against Swansea we had the better players.

They beat us because their system works seemlessly as a well oiled machine and ours is juddering away like chitty chitty bang bang.

Once our system becomes as smooth over time as theirs is we will be quite a force simply because as good as they are as a unit, our players are mostly of a higher standard so once our players click as a unit they will be phenomenal.
I don't agree with that statement. On that night, Swansea had the better players on the pitch, and played better as a unit. They had a new manager in charge as well, and several new players to integrate in their playing system.

Bottom line is: they performed better than us, both as a unit and individually, thoroughly deserved that win, and walked over us very easily. That's an abysmal shame, there is no way to put it in other words.

I admire your optimism for the future though, and very much believe that we can get to better days if BR can quietly work on, and gets enough time and support from the owners. But it will be a long and rough ride, and we seem far away from anything like that happening in the near future (talking about one or two seasons here).
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I don't agree with that statement. On that night, Swansea had the better players on the pitch, and played better as a unit. They had a new manager in charge as well, and several new players to integrate in their playing system.

Bottom line is: they performed better than us, both as a unit and individually, thoroughly deserved that win, and walked over us very easily. That's an abysmal shame, there is no way to put it in other words.

I admire your optimism for the future though, and very much believe that we can get to better days if BR can quietly work on, and gets enough time and support from the owners. But it will be a long and rough ride, and we seem far away from anything like that happening in the near future (talking about one or two seasons here).
See for me it was all about how they performed. Every single one of them had a top class individual performance yes but mostly it was the team work. On paper our players are better, but theirs PLAYED better AND as a team. They have a new manager and new players but they do what we are trying to set up, they recruit players and staff to match their ingrained style so those new players seemlessly fit into the system already in place and fully functional. Thats why people are saying they are a vision of our future, because although we will do it with better players and finances, their recruitment style and seemless system are things we will be working on.
 

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See for me it was all about how they performed. Every single one of them had a top class individual performance yes but mostly it was the team work. On paper our players are better, but theirs PLAYED better AND as a team. They have a new manager and new players but they do what we are trying to set up, they recruit players and staff to match their ingrained style so those new players seemlessly fit into the system already in place and fully functional. Thats why people are saying they are a vision of our future, because although we will do it with better players and finances, their recruitment style and seemless system are things we will be working on.
The problem is that the philosophy Swansea have put in place is not the gaffer's work, but the owners'. It's a bit like in Dortmund. It's not Klopp who has put in place their remarkable upturn since around five-six years. He's merely a cog in the system. Similarly, Rodgers took over from Martinez, and Laudrup took over from Rodgers. The owner is the man behind the scenes who has put all this in place, and appoints people who can sustain his way of thinking and doing things.

Compare this with our owners and the way they throwed everything in the bin at the end of last season, and you'll understand that we are way off here, despite our superior financial power. In order to senjoy success, you need competence right from the top to the bottom. But it starts from the top, it has to, and fsg haven't shown anything so far which would suggest that they are competent in football matters. Financially yes, no doubt, but regarding football, they are pretty much clueless.
 

lfc.eddie

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We should all be glad that one day we will be playing like Swansea City. Man, when was the last time we heard ourselves saying that.... We played with no system, and that was the mantra being used as if Kenny had no idea what football really is. Last season average possessions, hitting the damn cross bars and creating more chances than any other team means nothing. Because we did not play tiki taka, pass and move, 180 pages philosophy. Ridiculous!
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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The problem is that the philosophy Swansea have put in place is not the gaffer's work, but the owners'. It's a bit like in Dortmund. It's not Klopp who has put in place their remarkable upturn since around five-six years. He's merely a cog in the system. Similarly, Rodgers took over from Martinez, and Laudrup took over from Rodgers. The owner is the man behind the scenes who has put all this in place, and appoints people who can sustain his way of thinking and doing things.

Compare this with our owners and the way they throwed everything in the bin at the end of last season, and you'll understand that we are way off here, despite our superior financial power. In order to senjoy success, you need competence right from the top to the bottom. But it starts from the top, it has to, and fsg haven't shown anything so far which would suggest that they are competent in football matters. Financially yes, no doubt, but regarding football, they are pretty much clueless.
At Swansea they need the owner to have that level of knowledge to create the consistency they have there as they don't have the ability to hold onto managers. At Dortmund and here you just need the owners to know enough to put the right guy in place and get the consistency from keeping him. We are on the 4th Swansea manager whilst Klopp has been at Dortmund who knows what level of consistency theyd have if Barca had poached Klopp as Peps replacement. We can get to that level of consistency now by leaving Rodgers to get on with things for a few seasons. That wont happen though if the fans turn on Rodgers like they did on Roy though.
 

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We should all be glad that one day we will be playing like Swansea City. Man, when was the last time we heard ourselves saying that.... We played with no system, and that was the mantra being used as if Kenny had no idea what football really is. Last season average possessions, hitting the damn cross bars and creating more chances than any other team means nothing. Because we did not play tiki taka, pass and move, 180 pages philosophy. Ridiculous!
You speak out of my heart here, Ed mate, couldn't agree more with you!

But there is no denying that given their limited potential, Swansea are a very well-run club. If we had as much a clear idea as them of how to achieve success, and were optimising our potential as well as them, we'd win the league every year. But that's a matter of the owners, not the gaffer.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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We should all be glad that one day we will be playing like Swansea City. Man, when was the last time we heard ourselves saying that.... We played with no system, and that was the mantra being used as if Kenny had no idea what football really is. Last season average possessions, hitting the damn cross bars and creating more chances than any other team means nothing. Because we did not play tiki taka, pass and move, 180 pages philosophy. Ridiculous!
Swanseas system has seen them win promotion up the leagues to become a midtable Premiership side on a budget how is that not admirable?

They actually use the same systems and philosphies as Barca but they recruit from the bargain bucket whilst Barca have unlimited resources.
 

lfc.eddie

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Swanseas system has seen them win promotion up the leagues to become a midtable Premiership side on a budget how is that not admirable?

They actually use the same systems and philosphies as Barca but they recruit from the bargain bucket whilst Barca have unlimited resources.
We have a system, Liverpool Football Club had always have a system, a philosophy which a lot of people been screaming at Rafa when he made us rigid. What you see is nothing new to the club. We played the same way as we did this season.
 

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At Swansea they need the owner to have that level of knowledge to create the consistency they have there as they don't have the ability to hold onto managers. At Dortmund and here you just need the owners to know enough to put the right guy in place and get the consistency from keeping him. We are on the 4th Swansea manager whilst Klopp has been at Dortmund who knows what level of consistency theyd have if Barca had poached Klopp as Peps replacement. We can get to that level of consistency now by leaving Rodgers to get on with things for a few seasons. That wont happen though if the fans turn on Rodgers like they did on Roy though.
I know a bit from how Dortmund set up their structure, and it's not as you believe it is.

Firstly, the club is owned by the fans. They had big financial trouble, and the club decided to sell it's shares to the fans, who buyed it (at a loss, they never will recoup what they spent, but it saved the club's life...). They are run by a very competent president named Rauball, and an even more so competent MD named Watzke. Both have been the lynchpin of everything which has happened at Dortmund since then.

After Watzke, there is a sporting director who is at the club since more than 12 years, named Zorc. He's a former player and legend for the club, and has been through both good and bad times with the club, both as player and as sporting director.

They appointed Klopp, who has done miracles since he was appointed, but he couldn't have done it without a rock-solid structure supporting him and helping him on his way. That's what is lacking here. BR is pretty much on his own here, and what is worse, will get sacked if results don't improve rapidly on what they are now. That's what makes me feel very uncomfortable about our present situation. BR needs wins very soon, or he'll be finished. Not because of the fans, but because of the owners, and possibly, because of the players suspecting he'll lose the owners' support, and thus, don't buying anymore in his ideas.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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We have a system, Liverpool Football Club had always have a system, a philosophy which a lot of people been screaming at Rafa when he made us rigid. What you see is nothing new to the club. We played the same way as we did this season.
Have to agree to disagree, Liverpool havent had consistency on their on pitch system since Souness tore up the rule book that had been in place since Shanks. Since then every manager has done something different. Closest we had to consistency was 6 years under Rafa. And you can not deny our recruitment has been awful for years. Yet again Rafa got closest with 50/50 on whether the player turned out to be any good in the system.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I know a bit from how Dortmund set up their structure, and it's not as you believe it is.

Firstly, the club is owned by the fans. They had big financial trouble, and the club decided to sell it's shares to the fans, who buyed it (at a loss, they never will recoup what they spent, but it saved the club's life...). They are run by a very competent president named Rauball, and an even more so competent MD named Watzke. Both have been the lynchpin of everything which has happened at Dortmund since then.

After Watzke, there is a sporting director who is at the club since more than 12 years, named Zorc. He's a former player and legend for the club, and has been through both good and bad times with the club, both as player and as sporting director.

They appointed Klopp, who has done miracles since he was appointed, but he couldn't have done it without a rock-solid structure supporting him and helping him on his way. That's what is lacking here. BR is pretty much on his own here, and what is worse, will get sacked if results don't improve rapidly on what they are now. That's what makes me feel very uncomfortable about our present situation. BR needs wins very soon, or he'll be finished. Not because of the fans, but because of the owners, and possibly, because of the players suspecting he'll lose the owners' support, and thus, don't buying anymore in his ideas.
Get what you are saying Dortmund is a very well run club but what was that achieving before they hired Klopp and gave him the years to acheive consistency? If they lost Klopp whats the betting their next manager would be as good a choice?
 

DEVGRU

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Have to agree to disagree, Liverpool havent had consistency on their on pitch system since Souness tore up the rule book that had been in place since Shanks. Since then every manager has done something different. Closest we had to consistency was 6 years under Rafa. And you can not deny our recruitment has been awful for years. Yet again Rafa got closest with 50/50 on whether the player turned out to be any good in the system.
Rafa, Houllier, Evans, Souness and Dalglish had different players of varying degree's of greatness at the club and adopted different styles of play.

Dalglish: had outstanding pass masters in the middle of the park in Ronnie Whelan and Jan Molby and we employed first Craig Johnston sporadically on the right before Johnnnie Barnes went out left and we then brought in the "2nd striker" in the nible Beardsley and a work horse in Houghton out right and in the middle. McMahon was our modern day defensive midfielder and we played a totally different brand of football to what we have seen under Dalglish in recent times...nothing close to what we were like back then.

Under Rafa and Houllier, we got tactically smarter and learnt how to play the european way and how to play counter attacking football and to be able to beat big guns like Juventus, Inter Milan, Barcelona and Real Madrid through disciplined tactics and smart football.

Under Souness, we were just all over the place with mediocre players of the likes of Paul Stewart, Julian Dicks and Ruddock at the back but then had quality players of the likes of Walters, Clough who just did not reach the levels we expected of them. We were of course going through a period of transition but it was AS PAINFUL to watch as it was under Roy Hodgson.

Yes, it was THAT BAD though at least we did win a cup or two but it was painfully obvious we could never get the better of a dominating Man Utd side.

Evans: probably employed a side as close to what the Liverpool way truly was. With Collymore (when he wasn't a lazy bastard and actually trained), Redknapp, McManaman, Fowler, McAteer, Bjonrneby and eventually Owen and Carragher, we had a side that could play beautiful, attractive, attacking football and who could score for fun. But, a lack of control and discipline probably wrecked much of Evans' hard work and tactical astuteness and the 'nice guy' attitude did more harm than good for the side, which was why Houllier was brought in to work alongside Evans..which, as we all now know, failed badly.

If there is one manager who got us playing as close to the Liverpool way, it was Evans. Not Dalglish in his 2nd spell, nor Souness, Rafa nor Houllier.

But, we know now, who was the most successful manager thus far, since Dalglish resigned as manager who got the side to play to his tactics and his style, which may have seemed to be the liverpool way of pass and move, but wasn't: Houllier.

And he also set the stepping stones for Rafa to take the club up another notch and to another level.

Only for Hodgson, Hicks, Gillett and Purslow to destroy what 10 years of hard work got us........in the space of 1 year.
 

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Get what you are saying Dortmund is a very well run club but what was that achieving before they hired Klopp and gave him the years to acheive consistency? If they lost Klopp whats the betting their next manager would be as good a choice?
That's anyone's guess. Fact is that Klopp wouldn't have been able to win things like he has done without an already very well-oiled machine supporting his work. My point was that competence is needed right from the top. If you haven't got this, success becomes almost impossible to achieve.
 

Prolix

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We should all be glad that one day we will be playing like Swansea City. Man, when was the last time we heard ourselves saying that.... We played with no system, and that was the mantra being used as if Kenny had no idea what football really is. Last season average possessions, hitting the damn cross bars and creating more chances than any other team means nothing. Because we did not play tiki taka, pass and move, 180 pages philosophy. Ridiculous!
Considering that real team cohesion and understanding has been something we've lacked for a few years now, I don't think it is unreasonable to examine how a team that beat us may be exemplary in that regard. I don't find it to be un-Liverpool at all to have the humility to take note of a thing or two a "lesser" club is doing quite well just because we did it first.
 

lfc.eddie

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Considering that real team cohesion and understanding has been something we've lacked for a few years now, I don't think it is unreasonable to examine how a team that beat us may be exemplary in that regard. I don't find it to be un-Liverpool at all to have the humility to take note of a thing or two a "lesser" club is doing quite well just because we did it first.
Then with humility, we should adopt a whole lot of style of plays in one go, no? Since a whole host of teams beat us, and that includes Stoke City hoofing style.
 

MarkMcC

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Slightly facetious Ed....not like you. Fact is Swansea played in a way that can only be admired. As they did last year too. Stoke - the only thing they've given the EPL over the past few years is the reintroduction of the "How Far Can You Throw The Ball" competition.



Oh and paying us a transfer fee for Adam :blink: ....which was nice
 

Prolix

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Then with humility, we should adopt a whole lot of style of plays in one go, no? Since a whole host of teams beat us, and that includes Stoke City hoofing style.
Nope.
 

Broomy

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Tuesday's Scouts #3 - Christian Eriksen


Tuesday's Scouts - Off the Ball with Anfield rd Dreamer

Brendan Rodgers recently revealed he is hopeful of adding to his squad when the transfer window re-opens and has confirmed the club's scouting team are in the process of monitoring potential targets. New head of scouting and recruitment Dave Fallows, who joined the Reds from Manchester City last month, is drawing up a list of possible targets but Rodgers insists he will have the final say on who is signed.

Every Tuesday, I will be asking the TIA Scouting Team to pick one player who would be be an ideal scouting candidate for the Liverpool team this January Transfer window....

This week, TIA Forum Member Anfield rd Dreamer takes a look at a Danish football player, currently playing for Ajax...

Anfield rd Dreamer said:
Christian Eriksen, born 14 February 1992, 5 foot 9 inches of Danish magic. Many posters will be well aware of the player and even casual fans should be aware of the name, Eriksen is the baby faced mega star of the current Danish National side and Ajax Amsterdam and is generally recognized as one of the true world class talents in his age group.

But why should we be interested? At Liverpool we currently have a great selection of centre mids with Gerrard, Sahin, Allen and Lucas all being world class and great younger players such as Henderson, Shelvey and Suso all deserving chances to play in our midfield. Well the answer as to why we should take a look at Eriksen is down to a current craze in football termed the “false 9”!

The false 9 as it is called probably isn’t really all that new in football but it is a formation that is starting to become very popular due to its effectiveness right now. There are several ways to implement a false 9 formation but one version that recently worked very well against us was used by Swansea to great effect with Michu and De Guzman, this version the false 9 plays as a supporting striker floating and roaming whilst the attacking midfielder pushes up into the box and has a remit for being a goal threat.

The reason we should want Eriksen is because we currently have perhaps the best false 9 in the game after Messi, Luis Suarez! Suarez is playing central for us this season and has 9 goals and 5 assists in 14 appearances so he is doing rather well there! What we have an issue with is the attacking midfield role. Gerrard should be perfect for the role however in recent seasons Gerrard seems hell bent on dropping deeper and developing into the next Alonso instead of playing in the way that made him famous. Shelvey and Suso could play the role but are young players just breaking through and are maybe not quite ready for such a spotlight.

Eriksen is a young player too however he has already had the spotlight on him for quite some time for club and country. Earlier on in his youthful and so far quite short career Eriksen was seen more as a deeper playmaker in the Sahin or Modric style role however this season Eriksen has become more attacking. He now quite competently fulfills either the attacking midfield or the false 9 role for Ajax in most games.

Eriksen has so far this season scored 5 goals and made 7 assists in 15 games. The idea of combining him and Suarez could be a winner. He could even play in place of Suarez as the false 9 with maybe Shelvey in attacking midfield if need be which gives us depth and options, something we are currently short of.

Will we be after Eriksen though? It is a valid question and one I don’t pretend to know the answer too, all I do know is that Rodgers was in charge of the youth team when Eriksen had two successful trials at Chelsea but chose senior football at Ajax instead of youth football at Chelsea. We also have his old club team mate in Suarez and his national captain in Agger so he should be able to settle fairly quickly. Eriksen seems to be a reasonably safe bet as being a player up for sale and Ajax seem quite open to the idea of losing their star. The price may well be quite steep though as he may cost between £15-20 million. However if there was ever a signing that matches FSG’s recruitment policy it is definitely Eriksen.

Tuesday Scouts

Tuesday's Scouts #1 (22/10/2012) - Wilfried Bony
Tuesday's Scouts #2 (30/10/2012) - Dries Mertins
Tuesday's Scouts #3 (6/11/2012) - Christian Eriksen
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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By the way I wrote that report before the Newcastle game so should point out Suarez is 10 in 15 now of course.

Also its since been pointed out by Netherlands based forumites that there isnt much chance of landing Eriksen in the Winter window, but I still think we should make an attempt or return in the Summer. Him or somebody similar could be just what we need.
 

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I know I lean against the grain here but for me, Eriksen is the most over-rated, over-hyped young player in world football. I'm not saying he's crap - not by any means - but in my opinion he's not the next Bergkamp or Laudrup.

He's got an active agent though - fair play to him for that. Would he improve our team? Perhaps marginally but we could do better for the prices mentioned and with less 'hassle-factor' that he (and his agent) would inevitably bring with him.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I know I lean against the grain here but for me, Eriksen is the most over-rated, over-hyped young player in world football. I'm not saying he's crap - not by any means - but in my opinion he's not the next Bergkamp or Laudrup.

He's got an active agent though - fair play to him for that. Would he improve our team? Perhaps marginally but we could do better for the prices mentioned and with less 'hassle-factor' that he (and his agent) would inevitably bring with him.
Fair enough all about opinions nothing wrong with that, do you have alternatives in mind? Or not agree its an area we need to sort?
 

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Fair enough all about opinions nothing wrong with that, do you have alternatives in mind? Or not agree its an area we need to sort?
I don't think it is an area we particularly need to strengthen but if I was to go in for a player who could do a similar job it would be Younes Belhanda - for half the price of an Eriksen and able to cover an area where I think we do need reinforcements (attacking from wide areas).
 

Nikola

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Eriksen is talented and some of the stuff I (and Glen Johnson) have seen from him were truly outstanding pieces of skill but what would be the point of having a good Academy if we were to bring players like him instead of blooding youngsters in what is arguably the strongest position in our youth ranks? We already have Suso, Shelvey, Adorjan and Dunn in that no. 10 role and while they don't have similar exposure to Eriksen due to various reasons, there is nothing I've seen that suggests that Suso won't be as good in two seasons as Eriksen is right now. Eriksen may go on to become world class player but he is not what we need right now.

I'd rather that money be spent on forwards and that our midfield gets some kind of balance that would enable our advanced midfielders to fully support attack and express themselves properly.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Good suggestion, only ones I could think of off top of head that have both the passing pedigree and goal threat capability to play a "number 10" role behind a "false 9" who were grand enough for LFC were unlikely to come here like Kevin Prince Boetang or Mesut Oezil, a bit older and a gamble like Keisuke Honda, already here if Stevie G can develop trust in the guys behind them an stop dropping back or Christian Eriksen.

Not saying the "number 10 with false 9" option is only way we can go but most of the other tactical options seem to require moving Suarez wide or switching formation, not sure either will happen although my personal preference is Suarez wide and a traditional centre forward.
 

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Whilst I haven’t seen Hendo do anything really really good yet he’s got a great record in his career, just wish he’d start clicking.​

So how’s this for a stat? Jordan Henderson was responsible for creating 82 goal scoring opportunities for his team-mates in 2010-11 - 39 more than any of his team-mates and the fourth best total in the Premier League. (stat from. ESPN)​

Jordan Henderson is a player who seems to get a lot of stick. To be fair, it’s mainly aimed at the price tag in which he was brought into the club with and his lack of performance thus far. Many say that Kenny over-paid, and I’d have to agree with that. But what’s done is done, and a positive is that we’ve probably got a real player on our hands. Very recently, Brendan Rodgers said that Jordan Henderson “has a very bright future at this football club.”​

Unfortunately he may still be saying that in 5 years time.​

At twenty-two years old, I’m sure you’ll all agree, that Jordan now has to start turning all that so called potential into promise, and promise into performances. Already, this season, Hendo has played five games in the Europa League (including qualifiers) and has two assists. Not bad for a deep lying midfielder. If Liverpool are to get to the late stages and possibly the final, and Hendo starts every game, then on the basis of these stats he’d end the tournament on eight assists. Once again, a great return for a deep lying midfielder. What I’m trying to get at here, is that Jordan isn’t just a midfielder who’ll run for you all day, he’s a midfielder who when given the chance, will create opportunities for team mates to score. Oh, and not to mention chip in with the odd goal. Very rare though, I must say, as seven goals in his past three full seasons would suggest.​

As mentioned, Jordan is able to run for days, another positive because we miss the workhorse Kuyt, and one which we shouldn’t take for granted. Jordan’s stamina and fitness is amazing, up there with the best.​

Finally, there must be something Jordan Henderson carries around with him. An aura, an air of responsibility, captaining the England U21 side is a great achievement, and to do so for so long as well. England haven’t conceded in their last five games, and have done this whilst scoring an incredible nine goals, all under Hendo’s leadership. Jordan wears the number eight for the U21 side, and is more often than not the first name on that team sheet. Tells us a lot about the man and player he is.​

Possibly a good one, who with time and support, may well turn out to be a great one,,,,,,,,, al la Lucas.​
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Great write up Lancashirelad.

I consider myself a Henderson fan I think he is a great player.

As an aside those chances created and the fact he could play wide or central is EXACTLY how Comollis stats based recruitment made a huge mistake.

Henderson was bought for the wing because Comolli saw those stats and thought Samir Nasri when really he should of been thinking more like somebody like Patrik Viera.
 

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I'm with Nikola on this one. I think Eriksen would be great here, but I think Suso and Shelvey will both be t'riffic attacking midfielder in the near future (by the end of this season I can see either negating the need for Eriksen to come in) and I don't think we should be spending in excess of 20 million pounds for an attacking midfielder when we need a wide forward, center forward, left back and defensive midfielder.
 

Never Say Never

FSG are the iluminati
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
2,860
I know I lean against the grain here but for me, Eriksen is the most over-rated, over-hyped young player in world football. I'm not saying he's crap - not by any means - but in my opinion he's not the next Bergkamp or Laudrup.

He's got an active agent though - fair play to him for that. Would he improve our team? Perhaps marginally but we could do better for the prices mentioned and with less 'hassle-factor' that he (and his agent) would inevitably bring with him.
Obviously you don't watch enough YouTube