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The Unreliable Rumours Thread

Flobs

FADA
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When Klopp signed, I along with probably most people expected him to use the same system that he had...pretty much every game in his Dortmund career. And to favor similar players. But he hasn't, not completely anyway. A lot of that has to do with two unique players -- Lewandowski, and Firmino. I think part of Klopp's struggle in his last season at Dortmund is that he tried to replace Lewandowski, rather than using the best striker he had as a striker (Aubameyang). He made the switch after the winter break, Auba scored 11 goals in 16 games, and the team flew up the table.

You'd like to think Klopp learned from this, and became more flexible -- which has become vitally important for Liverpool as he now has a team with a much different CF, and a much different top CB, a much different GK, and a RB that simply can do things no BVB RB he had can (and maybe not any RB not named Kimmich since the prime of Dani Alves).
We have to be realistic. Klopp sticks to his guns so is generally inflexible. We have seen this again this season Fabinho, Henderson and Keita being good examples even if their cases are very different. Then there are his substitutions which often come late and aren't very inspired most of the time. When he gets forced into a situation things seem to go well like Henderson coming on against Southampton (appeared to be the spark to our end of season) and the 2nd leg against Barça with angry Gini coming on for injured Andy. (this is tantamount to his training if you ask me). So he really isn't a great tactician and I don't ask him to become one. He is stubborn and in the long run that tends to work well. Why should he change or learn?
 


Flobs

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Well this is a relief ...
Real Madrid manager Zinedine Zidane wants to keep Spain defender Sergio Ramos at the La Liga club next season, despite interest in the 33-year-old from Liverpool, Manchester United and teams in China. (Marca - in Spanish)

...think we swerved one there! A pity though, as it would've been fun to put him in the stocks in West Derby village and let the populace have a go at him.
Yes having to boo one of your own players all season just wouldn't be very LFC would it? lol
 

SadiosMio

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We have to be realistic. Klopp sticks to his guns so is generally inflexible. We have seen this again this season Fabinho, Henderson and Keita being good examples even if their cases are very different. Then there are his substitutions which often come late and aren't very inspired most of the time. When he gets forced into a situation things seem to go well like Henderson coming on against Southampton (appeared to be the spark to our end of season) and the 2nd leg against Barça with angry Gini coming on for injured Andy. (this is tantamount to his training if you ask me). So he really isn't a great tactician and I don't ask him to become one. He is stubborn and in the long run that tends to work well. Why should he change or learn?
Ima just say I disagree with most of this. Seasons are long, players -- especially new players -- evolve in their understanding of the system, adjustment to training, etc.

All I know is if Gini being "angry" explains his performance against Barca, someone needs to really wind him up before every match.
 

JMac8

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Raiola demanding a 20% cut is ridiculous. I don’t understand why clubs don’t cooperate to blacklist problem agents. The trouble there is always one set of fucking planks, like Utd, will to screw the game to get a jump on the other clubs.
Did we not spend the most on agents fees last year?
 



JMac8

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We have to be realistic. Klopp sticks to his guns so is generally inflexible. We have seen this again this season Fabinho, Henderson and Keita being good examples even if their cases are very different. Then there are his substitutions which often come late and aren't very inspired most of the time. When he gets forced into a situation things seem to go well like Henderson coming on against Southampton (appeared to be the spark to our end of season) and the 2nd leg against Barça with angry Gini coming on for injured Andy. (this is tantamount to his training if you ask me). So he really isn't a great tactician and I don't ask him to become one. He is stubborn and in the long run that tends to work well. Why should he change or learn?
I’d like to respectfully disagree with every singe sentence above
 

Flobs

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I disagree with most of this. Seasons are long, players -- especially new players -- evolve in their understanding of the system, adjustment to training, etc.
That has nothing to do with what I said.

All I know is if Gini being "angry" explains his performance against Barca, someone needs to really wind him up before every match.
Again not what I said.

I’d like to respectfully disagree with every singe sentence above
Why?
 

SadiosMio

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That has nothing to do with what I said.


Again not what I said.
I don't know how to quote in line here but whatever.

1. Yes it does. You're saying "oh he was stubborn, wouldn't change ... Fabinho, Henderson, Keita... (blah blah blah)". I'm saying situations evolve over a long season. Fabinho proved himself able to handle being the lone #6 which he hadn't been asked to do much at Monaco, in an inferior league. This both enabled Henderson to play further forward, and engendered the confidence to use a player like Keita who is dynamic but also adventurous, wants to drive play forward, aggressively pursue, etc. Fabinho: not adventurous.

But until Fabinho inspires confidence in everyone else that he can hold down the fort, you can't do any of that, because defense is the reason this team had 97 points rather than 85 or something and certainly the reason they're in the Champions League final. 1-0 vs. Napoli, 1 goal in 2 games vs. Bayern, 4-0 vs. Barca when 1 goal when one goal would have undone everything.

Robertson didn't play for half the season or whatever when he arrived. Seems that for some, it takes a while to get up to speed. Doesn't mean Klopp did anything wrong. But he put Van Dijk and Alisson in right away and Salah last season, which shows that he'll do that if the player can do what's required from the start and the opportunity in the team is there.

And yes, I know you didn't say anything about needing to wind up Gini before match...that was me, and it was a joke (sort of, maybe? whatever works...). I didn't imply in any way that you said that.
 
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JMac8

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- You have cherry picked examples to prove a point.
- it’s not possible to be as successful as he’s been without being a great tactician
- He has ‘changed and learned’ as outlined by others above
- “When he gets forced into a situation things seem to go well’ .... this suggests his success and impact has been partly fluke. Criminal lack of credit where it is due
 
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Flobs

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I don't know how to quote in line here but whatever.

1. Yes it does. You're saying "oh he was stubborn, wouldn't change ... Fabinho, Henderson, Keita... (blah blah blah)". I'm saying situations evolve over a long season. Fabinho proved himself able to handle being the lone #6 which he hadn't been asked to do much at Monaco, in an inferior league. This both enabled Henderson to play further forward, and engendered the confidence to use a player like Keita who is dynamic but also adventurous, wants to drive play forward, aggressively pursue, etc. Fabinho: not adventurous.

But until Fabinho inspires confidence in everyone else that he can hold down the fort, you can't do any of that, because defense is the reason this team had 97 points rather than 85 or something and certainly the reason they're in the Champions League final. 1-0 vs. Napoli, 1 goal in 2 games vs. Bayern, 4-0 vs. Barca when 1 goal when one goal would have undone everything.

Robertson didn't play for half the season or whatever when he arrived. Seems that for some, it takes a while to get up to speed. Doesn't mean Klopp did anything wrong. But he put Van Dijk and Alisson in right away and Salah last season, which shows that he'll do that if the player can do what's required from the start and the opportunity in the team is there.

And yes, I know you didn't say anything about needing to wind up Gini before match...that was me, and it was a joke (sort of, maybe? whatever works...). I didn't imply in any way that you said that.
I'll get back to you later however with VVD, Robertson, Alisson and Salah you are just proving my point.
Klopp decides and he's stubborn about it (sticks to his guns). Personally I think that's better than being flippant.
 



Flobs

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- You have cherry picked examples to prove a point.
I picked some examples. Posts above have given even more. I am not trying to prove a point I am saying what I think are some of Klopp's underlying characteristics. I can accept others might think differently.

- it’s not possible to be as successful as he’s been without being a great tactician
Klopp imo puts a system in place in the most part, he's not an in game tactician like for example Rafa was. I accept he has changed his tactics but when he does he sticks by them he doesn't flip and flop. Like for example BR did.

- He has ‘changed and learned’ as outlined by others above
I am sure he has learned but he doesn't change.

- “When he gets forced into a situation things seem to go well’ .... this suggests his success and impact has been partly fluke. Criminal lack of credit where it is due
Take the comment as you will I pointed out why it's not a fluke at most there's some luck all managers need some of that.

Credit where have I taken credit away from Klopp. All I'm saying is Klopp is'nt imo what was proposed. We can all see his metods are sucessful. That's not the debate here the debate is how he achieves sucess. What are his underlying characteristics that provide the base to that sucess. This is where we part in our thinking.

There is nothing offensive or decrediting in my propositions. What I'm saying is Klopp is a strong character who takes responsibility for his decissions that he stubbornly sticks by.
 

SadiosMio

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I'll get back to you later however with VVD, Robertson, Alisson and Salah you are just proving my point.
Klopp decides and he's stubborn about it (sticks to his guns). Personally I think that's better than being flippant.
Huh? How does a mix of "took time to adjust" and "moved straight into the starting XI" immediately prove your point in any way?

Van Dijk, Alisson and Salah certainly gave very little reason for him to make a change. Of course with Alisson there was very little choice, fortunately there didn't need to be. But Van Dijk and Salah were pretty instantly hits. Salah scored on his debut and scored in 7 of his first 11 games before the end of September. And Van Dijk...well if you don't know you better ask somebody.

Some guys take time, some don't. If they need time, Klopp has shown he's willing to give it and will give the player more responsibility when they're ready for it. That's not the same as being stubborn. But he's not going to hold back the team.

Honestly, I think we're probably about done seeing guys go straight into the starting XI (whatever that is, in the midfield it's hard to tell and CB has quite a bit of depth as well). The club has so much quality in the first 16 or so guys. It's extremely difficult to see who that the club could realistically buy could instantly replace one of the core players. So we'll see a lot more of guys starting on the bench and then working their way into the rotation and starting XIs through their work in training. That's how top clubs are, and that's what Liverpool is now...again.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Maybe stubborn means something different some other place than where I was born and raised?

Because to me Klopp is the least Stubborn, most open-minded, of all the top level managers out there.

Last summer he recruited for 4231, we started the season in it. We didn't need to change. We were still reasonably solid, still scoring goals, still getting results and keeping competitive. He realised the team was simply more fluid and comfortable, more natural, in 433 so he reverted back and we kicked on a level.

For most of his time here he kept Henderson deep as a number 6. Even after Gini impressed a few times in the position, Can was demanding to be used there or he'd leave on a free or when Fabinho had settled after Christmas. If Henderson was used it was in rotation as a number 6. Klopp even admitted his plan was to use Henderson not Fabinho at CB in the cup but Jordan picked up a knock. Henderson came on as a sub further forward and changed the game against Southampton. Klopp seized the opportunity and kept him further forward. A goal and 4 assists in 8 games in that position has really helped see us through the late season pressure.

Klopp didn't like the loan market when he arrived but has clearly listened to reason on the lack of quality football experienced at under 23 level now loads are going on loans.

He didn't believe in big outlays on individual players. Talking about what happened if Pogba picked up an injury in regards to that transfer. He has since realised that sometimes to take a good squad to elite levels you have to pay that little extra to add elite level players like VvD and Alisson (providing they perfectly match what you need they're worth every penny).
 

Mascot88

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Huh? How does a mix of "took time to adjust" and "moved straight into the starting XI" immediately prove your point in any way?

Van Dijk, Alisson and Salah certainly gave very little reason for him to make a change. Of course with Alisson there was very little choice, fortunately there didn't need to be. But Van Dijk and Salah were pretty instantly hits. Salah scored on his debut and scored in 7 of his first 11 games before the end of September. And Van Dijk...well if you don't know you better ask somebody.

Some guys take time, some don't. If they need time, Klopp has shown he's willing to give it and will give the player more responsibility when they're ready for it. That's not the same as being stubborn. But he's not going to hold back the team.

Honestly, I think we're probably about done seeing guys go straight into the starting XI (whatever that is, in the midfield it's hard to tell and CB has quite a bit of depth as well). The club has so much quality in the first 16 or so guys. It's extremely difficult to see who that the club could realistically buy could instantly replace one of the core players. So we'll see a lot more of guys starting on the bench and then working their way into the rotation and starting XIs through their work in training. That's how top clubs are, and that's what Liverpool is now...again.
Isn’t the issue more likely to be that there are some positions where Klopp’s system requires a lot of bedding in, and some where it’s fine to drop them in?

I think it’s a midfield issue, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Keita*, Fabinho and Oxlade all had their adjustment times. I’d say that, given how high up the pitch our fullbacks play, you can put Robertson in that group as well.

Klopp asks a lot of his midfield, and it’s often been said that it’s really hard to play his midfield system.

*I think the club thought Keita would drop straight in, given his role at Leipzig. He started the first three, before they realised they had some work to do and took him out.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Isn’t the issue more likely to be that there are some positions where Klopp’s system requires a lot of bedding in, and some where it’s fine to drop them in?

I think it’s a midfield issue, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Keita*, Fabinho and Oxlade all had their adjustment times. I’d say that, given how high up the pitch our fullbacks play, you can put Robertson in that group as well.

Klopp asks a lot of his midfield, and it’s often been said that it’s really hard to play his midfield system.

*I think the club thought Keita would drop straight in, given his role at Leipzig. He started the first three, before they realised they had some work to do and took him out.
I think it's also a factor that for those players we already had people in the squad who could play their positions tolerably well (even, sigh, Moreno) while they adjusted. For the guys in midfield we already had Hendo, Gini and Milner in the squad two of whom Klopp inherited and had worked with for years to get them doing what he wants, and Gini had already had a year in CM to adjust and the difference between his seasons was pronounced.

But our defence of Lovren and Matip was a mess when VVD arrived, and aside from Mane who was also playing, we didn't really have anyone doing what Salah does, bar perhaps Lallana which wasn't ideal for several reasons. The fact they were both absolute quality also helped, of course.

Interestingly all of Robertson, Keita and Fabinho got games fairly early on before disappearing again - even quite promising ones at that - so it does suggest that rather than it being a standard approach to give players that kind of settling-in time, they're given an opportunity first and then if they need extra time they're given it.

It's likely very case-by-case depending on how the player looks first-off and what options we already have in the squad to allow them that extra adjustment time.
 



LFCFFC

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I think the notion that Klopp isn't a great tactician went out the door when the supposed brains of the operation left and we finished 2nd with one of the highest ever points tallies and are on our way to a second consecutive European final.

A few poor subs don't change the fact that the system he has implemented has turned us into one of the best teams in world football.
 

Jaytinho

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Cornet flattered by Liverpool links as talk of Lyon exit builds (Goal/Bein Sports)
If hes willing to be a versatile squad player, or even challenge for starting places then Id take this boy easily. He basically plays anywhere across the front 3 and in wide midfield positions. Bags of pace and skill.

“We met the president in January, and I said I wanted to extend [my contract], but talks were not successful.”

“Liverpool are a big club, any links are flattering. I’m under contract until 2021, but you never know in football so we’ll see.”
 

Kopstar

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I think the notion that Klopp isn't a great tactician went out the door when the supposed brains of the operation left and we finished 2nd with one of the highest ever points tallies and are on our way to a second consecutive European final.

A few poor subs don't change the fact that the system he has implemented has turned us into one of the best teams in world football.
You have to wonder whether Buvac's brain was out performed by Graham's and whether that might have led to any tension between him and Klopp?
 

Zinedine Biscan

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You have to wonder whether Buvac's brain was out performed by Graham's and whether that might have led to any tension between him and Klopp?
Buvac was the gegenpress expert of the trio, wasn't he? Given that we've been adapting our early frenetic style into something a tad more patient and controlled (which has yielded greater results), I wonder whether that was the source of conflict, ie Klopp wanting to adapt and Buvac remaining a purist to the system?
 

Kopstar

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Buvac was the gegenpress expert of the trio, wasn't he? Given that we've been adapting our early frenetic style into something a tad more patient and controlled (which has yielded greater results), I wonder whether that was the source of conflict, ie Klopp wanting to adapt and Buvac remaining a purist to the system?
Yeah, I was just wondering to what extent the analysts may have played a part in that evolution and in tactical input game-by-game. Certainly there's scope for their remit to step on Buvac's toes.