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The Unreliable Rumours Thread

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Sweeting

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Would De Ligt definitely start ahead of Gomez? Undeniably he was superb in the CL campaign but he did look vulnerable to aerial balls and a bit slow on his feet.

He will probably sort those issues out given time but I think we are talking about potential rather than proven quality right now.
 

peter roberts

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Can't believe we'd even be interested in him tbh. Central defence is one area whre we are absolutely fine as we are. Why go spunking megabucks on a prospect and risk ruining it ? If we are about to spend £100m on a player then surely it must be on a forward.
 

legalalien

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Yes okay, but I bet De Ligt has other offers as a guaranteed starter? Unsure about whether Gomez will last injury wise, he does spend a lot of time out. I suppose the overarching rationale is when a player of this quality comes available.....................move in. It would be unjust though to swap out the best CB in the world, Lovren I mean. What irony that Lovren said that and he plays with VVD, the actual real deal lol
It seems like De Ligt is a smart lad though, and he probably knows very well that playing 20-30 games a season for the likes of us or, dare I say it, Man City, is better for his long term development than playing week in week out for some mediocre club like that other one from Manchester.
I think we'll know pretty soon though. Just as soon as that Nations League thing is over.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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Just because De Ligt is RUMOURED to have turned down 200k a week from United doesn't mean that's what we'd have to pay him.

It's United, even if true maybe he just didn't fancy going there? Ox and VvD both fought for moves to us that paid less than they were offered to play elsewhere as an example.

On Matip he's playing well right now but Klopp really challenges his CBs physically and I'm not getting carried away by Matip's form when he still hasn't gone 6 months of game time without injury. It's also not guaranteed he'll extend his deal. He's apparently on low basic because his sign on fee from signing for free has been getting paid weekly. Is he going to want a wage which equals the two combined together? A pay rise? Essentially a pay cut once his bonus runs out next season?

At his age, availability, wages, last 2 years on contract and his profile are Lovren and the club happy for him to be 4th choice? From a business point of view this is perfect time to sell. From a players point of view it may be last chance to go be a star CB starter at a decent level club.

Gomez will likely play at RB a bit next season providing he stays fit. So won't be available in the middle all the time.

VvD isn't getting rested which is a quick way to nobble a player. He still only made something like 50 games which is the minimum we will play next year. He needs resting sometimes next season and could get injured too. We need to cope without him.

With somewhere between 50 and 70 games next season we are looking at 100-140 starting spots. A new signing under Klopp probably isn't making more than 30 starts, VvD isn't likely to make more than 50. Leaves somewhere between 20 and 60 starts at CB for the others. With injuries to Lovren, Matip and Gomez and Gomez also covering RB I'm not convinced we are strong enough currently to cope. On paper yeah.

If the club sign De Ligt or another young CB I can definitely see why.
 

CymruRed

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The strategic framework of this club is built on the principle that this isn't good enough. If you don't like it, maybe this isn't the club for you. Plenty of other clubs out there still making dumb decisions based on the eye test. If there's not support for a player's contribution and value to an elite club -- the best team in the world? -- with data, he's not going to be a Liverpool first-team buy. It's just that simple.

The drivel I snipped might make sense if Messi or Ronaldo hadn't scored against everyone else in top leagues, top competitions, on the biggest stage, for a decade plus.

Bruno Fernandes, before his age 23 year, went from Sampdoria down in class to the Portuguese league, not up. Why?
Well, maybe he wasn't good enough to get to a bigger club in a bigger league. A #10 -- a position we don't even play regularly, by the way -- with not a single assist against anyone that isn't Championship or worse caliber on their schedule. You've got to explain that if you mean to convince anyone that he's worth buying. If you just want to bang on, then well...carry on.

Can't dribble past people, can't create goals for others as a midfielder against real competition, takes a lot of hopeful long shots (80% of his shots in Europa were from outside the box), I don't know what you think he's meant to do on a European championship level.

Why would Liverpool go for this over even James Maddison (who also might not fit)?
Believe me,this is the club for me and has been for the last 40 years,i don't need you to tell me how the club run things,even if you do think you're a statistical nerd and part of our backroom statistics department and got one over me, off the back of your statistical BS and yeah it is BS because if your going to spout stats,then tell them all,tell the whole story not just the parts you want people to see to justify your stance on a player,regardless of what league,team or competition the player is playing in.

I'm well aware of where he's playing and what he's doing,the guy has a footballing brain thats inline with our playing style,you only need to see players of the past and present to realise players aren't bought soley on what league they play in or how good the stats are when they play on the pitch.There are loads of factors stats can't tell you about the character of a player and if he's a good fit in our squad.I happen to think Fernandes would be a good fit,you don't,just leave it at that.
 

Hope in your heart

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lol looking at games vs. the teams of the quality that he would face in the PL and CL = "cherry picking".

Whatever dude. I trust whoscored over some clod on the internet that can't be bothered to think or even cite a single source for your numbers when I've done so twice. All you've done is say "I don't care what probably the best source for stats on the internet says", in essence. I mean are you counting preseason games or something? Winter scrimmages? If you're so confident your numbers are right -- however irrelevant they are, right or not -- you should be able to say why whoscored is wrong.

Again, 0 assists in 12 games against the best on the schedule. Doesn't make for great reading for people that are illogically Bruno Fernandes fanbois. No one gives a shit about hat tricks against Beleneses or braces against Feirense. It's totally irrelevant and you can bet Ian Graham and his team of analysts are going to be all over that shit.

How many players in the whole of the Liga NOS could play in the Premier League? 20? 30? Maybe a couple of clubs worth, at best. Completely silly to look at the whole league and pretend like it's representative of what a player might do in the Premier League.
You should try this site here: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bruno-fernandes/profil/spieler/240306

It's usually the best regarding stats. And it confirms @CymruRed 's figures.
 

Hope in your heart

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(...)

With injuries to Lovren, Matip and Gomez and Gomez also covering RB I'm not convinced we are strong enough currently to cope. On paper yeah.

If the club sign De Ligt or another young CB I can definitely see why.
It would definitely make sense. IF he's available AND wants to come here, it's a no-brainer to go for that boy. Not to be an immediate starter, but to go through the same learning path than Robbo and others.To take place on the bench, work very hard in training and come into the team when he'd be ready. Let's not forget that this boy is a teenager and would find the transition from Dutch Eredivisie to the PL a challenging one.

Even though an expensive move, it wouldn't be for the here and now, much more so for the future. The question is: whom would he replace? My answer to this is Lovren, and for a good fee too. He's in my opinion the weakest of our current four centre backs, which says everything about the current quality of players we have in that position (excellent). But Lovren is too injury-prone, and still prone to a lapse of concentration here and then. If we move for De Ligt, he'll ask for a move anyway. He's too ambitious and not in the right age to sit on the bench for us.

Anyway, if Klopp decides that Lovren, Gomez and Matip have to stay with us, and they are happy to stay too, then I'll have no qualms whatsoever.
 

costared

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Yes okay, but I bet De Ligt has other offers as a guaranteed starter? Unsure about whether Gomez will last injury wise, he does spend a lot of time out. I suppose the overarching rationale is when a player of this quality comes available.....................move in. It would be unjust though to swap out the best CB in the world, Lovren I mean. What irony that Lovren said that and he plays with VVD, the actual real deal lol
Hardly his fault or even a weakness that some clumsy oaf broke his leg for him.
 

jackh1092

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Just because De Ligt is RUMOURED to have turned down 200k a week from United doesn't mean that's what we'd have to pay him.

It's United, even if true maybe he just didn't fancy going there? Ox and VvD both fought for moves to us that paid less than they were offered to play elsewhere as an example.

On Matip he's playing well right now but Klopp really challenges his CBs physically and I'm not getting carried away by Matip's form when he still hasn't gone 6 months of game time without injury. It's also not guaranteed he'll extend his deal. He's apparently on low basic because his sign on fee from signing for free has been getting paid weekly. Is he going to want a wage which equals the two combined together? A pay rise? Essentially a pay cut once his bonus runs out next season?

At his age, availability, wages, last 2 years on contract and his profile are Lovren and the club happy for him to be 4th choice? From a business point of view this is perfect time to sell. From a players point of view it may be last chance to go be a star CB starter at a decent level club.

Gomez will likely play at RB a bit next season providing he stays fit. So won't be available in the middle all the time.

VvD isn't getting rested which is a quick way to nobble a player. He still only made something like 50 games which is the minimum we will play next year. He needs resting sometimes next season and could get injured too. We need to cope without him.

With somewhere between 50 and 70 games next season we are looking at 100-140 starting spots. A new signing under Klopp probably isn't making more than 30 starts, VvD isn't likely to make more than 50. Leaves somewhere between 20 and 60 starts at CB for the others. With injuries to Lovren, Matip and Gomez and Gomez also covering RB I'm not convinced we are strong enough currently to cope. On paper yeah.

If the club sign De Ligt or another young CB I can definitely see why.
Of course not, but that doesn't matter. If we have to pay him 150k which is reasonable to assume based on the above, we are still pushing every players wages up a notch and for all we are building as a side, we need to be careful. It's not my money, i don't care, but it's the reason i think its unlikely to happen. Matip playing well was used as an example to compare them both as players- i have long thought we need a new CB in the sqaud, we are weakened too often with injuries. The point was, pay De Ligt 150k plus++ which is will be regardless for someone who isn't as good right now as Matip IMO and then we open a can of worms when offering Matip who deserves a good wage increase. Yes we can potentially sell Lovren who is probably on a good wage, but that will still upset the structure.
 

The Elusive 19th

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Did anyone really expect a signing yesterday after the club being up all night on the piss and then going through streets of Liverpool for about 5 hours?
:shocked:... I was waiting for about 3 days without sleep for that world class signing which @Kopstar promised. Do you mean to say its in vain. :shocked::shocked:
Damn you @Kopstar.
 

ubermick

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We're getting to the point with wages though where the next step has to happen. All the top teams have squads of top players, and pay top dollar to do so. Us grumbling about paying £150k a week to a player who won't be first name on the team sheet would have been valid a decade ago, but not any more.
 

Kopstar

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Of course not, but that doesn't matter. If we have to pay him 150k which is reasonable to assume based on the above, we are still pushing every players wages up a notch and for all we are building as a side, we need to be careful. It's not my money, i don't care, but it's the reason i think its unlikely to happen. Matip playing well was used as an example to compare them both as players- i have long thought we need a new CB in the sqaud, we are weakened too often with injuries. The point was, pay De Ligt 150k plus++ which is will be regardless for someone who isn't as good right now as Matip IMO and then we open a can of worms when offering Matip who deserves a good wage increase. Yes we can potentially sell Lovren who is probably on a good wage, but that will still upset the structure.
Pay De Ligt £100,000 per week (rising incrementally depending on the terms) but offer him a signing bonus of, say, £15m spread over the term of his contract (say five years). That would be equivalent to nearly £160,000 per week but keep his actual wages in line with the likes of Gomez and TAA.
 

Nikola

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Would Klopp really sign De Ligt after offering Matip a new contract? I expected (or more like "wanted") a new centre back to replace Lovren but I thought that someone like De Ligt would be out of question - very young, probably requires significant amount of time to settle, very expensive, close ties to an agent notorious for squeezing out every penny for his clients and prone to hawking them around to other big/rich clubs.

All of this under presumption that Klopp wants to replace Lovren, for which he hasn't given any indication so far. I'd be surprised if there was anything in this, even though it would be nice to profit from Dutch revival (with Van Dijk, Wijnaldum and Hoever already here).
 

Mascot88

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I think the idea we won’t pay big wages isn’t true. But we do need people to show their are contributing at a high level before we go big on them.

I can see us going to 300k, but only on a renewal of a contract where the player has proved to be world class. I doubt Klopp would ever sanction that on a new signing, and actually he’d see anyone expecting that before kicking a ball for the club to be lacking in the character and fortitude he requires.
 

brush85

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"in time". So Klopp isn't going to fork out 200k a week plus for that. You come and you produce the goods to deserve that contract. Why does he deserve a better contract than Matip for next season? He doesn't. Teams want the next stars and yes when UTD etc. try and buy themselves out of trouble + player wages get out of hand, that's why we'll sit back and watch this out play out happier to not sign him. See Sanchez, why did City not bite the bullet and outpay UTD, i mean they could easily? Value.

You could argue De Ligt is value over 12 years as a transfer fee but not 200k as a base wage. He's not value on that.
Klopp isnt forking out anything...the club would be. And if they felt like it would make sense, then they should do it.
Joel Matips feelings shouldnt stop you from signing possibly the next great Central Defender.

We havent been in this position for decades. Now is the time to be aggressive.
 

JibJab

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If De Ligt wants to come here and we're able to make a deal with Ajax, I don't see why Matip or Lovren would inhibit us from making that decision. De Ligt is better than them. We'll be competing in four different competitions next year, so there's value in having depth at that position. I would also like to give Virgil a break now and then, and a De Ligt + Gomez/Matip/Lovren pairing gives me confidence that we'll remain excellent at the back.

That being said - I think Joe Gomez is being overlooked as potentially a world-class partner with Virgil. He just turned 22 and he looked simply brilliant prior to his injury. If he can stay healthy, I might even prefer him to De Ligt. I agree with those who prefer him at CB rather than FB - I think he's better in the middle.

But my pessimism about our links to MDL stem more from where I believe our priorities are. I think adding an AM - preferably one who can also slot in at Forward - a winger, and FB depth is a greater priority than another CB. But De Ligt has so much promise that I'd understand if they decided to buy him (too!).
 

Red over the water

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I personally don't really see the need for us to sign De Ligt, but if it's Lovren out and De Ligt in, bring it on!

The only things to work on at that point are wages and pecking order, but we will have plenty of games to spread around and as for the wages, we probably won't be the biggest wage De Ligt could earn immediately, but that will be our way of keeping good order. We retain the upper hand, which is one of the benefits of our current standing. Compare/contrast with Man Utd, who have lost the upper hand and will have to overpay to try to find quality. It doesn't mean they won't find their way back, but it gets harder each year.

If De Ligt wants to come and we want him, we can tell him that he is a good player but is also not the finished article. We will make you better, and if you come here you will train with, learn from and play with the best in the world. We will pay you well from the outset, and subsequent deals will be forthcoming if you prove your worth here...

A lot of it will be down to the mentality of the player, and if we are in for him and he doesn't come, he's a fool.
 

rab

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We aren't signing De Ligt. I know we're all desperate for transfer news given its nearly three days since we last won a trophy but we aren't breaking the bank on another CB.

You'd be hard pressed to find a team in Europe with a better quartet of centre backs. We have great depth in that spot right now. What we don't have is a second left back or creative depth at attacking midfield and wide forward positions. We'll probably need a reserve keeper too.

I'm all for improving from a position of strength but that's not going to be another world record fee on a centre back.
 
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gippo77

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As we all know, strengthening of the team is fluid, so any upgrades should be welcomed.
 

big noyd

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barca and united are both offering de ligt more than we're willing to pay him, and he's mino raiola's client. barca is a vile club in its own right but hopefully that's where he's going

that fernandes is 24 rather than 20 and struggled in italy can't be ignored. but take away the pens and it's still an impressive goal record for a midfield player. shaqiri certainly had his moments
 

jackh1092

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Klopp isnt forking out anything...the club would be. And if they felt like it would make sense, then they should do it.
Joel Matips feelings shouldnt stop you from signing possibly the next great Central Defender.

We havent been in this position for decades. Now is the time to be aggressive.
I've resisted answering really sarcastically. Clearly Klopp doesn't pay player's wages. He does however, hold a very strong say on who arrives at the club. Hence what i said.

Matip's feelings fall under squad harmony and there have been plenty of examples of other sides failing to manage this + then struggling.

Could well end up the next best defender, but right now, he's player one superb European tournament in a side with their tactics clearly perfected. He's playing week in week out in a poor league. I don't doubt the potential, i doubt the chances of it happening that's all.

I would prefer LFC forked out more on other positions firstly. We could do with a CB that stays fit, but it's not a necessity to blow 70mill and 150k plus.
 

Barnestormer

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We aren't signing De Ligt. I know we're all desperate for transfer news given its nearly three days since we last won a trophy but we aren't breaking the bank on another CB.

You'd be hard pressed to find a team in Europe with a better quartet of centre backs. We have great depth in that spot right now. What we don't have is a second left back or creative depth at attacking midfield and wide forward positions. We'll probably need a reserve keeper too.

I'm all for improving from a position of strength but that's not going to be another world record fee on a centre back.
Is probably all correct.
 

hugo the horrible

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Just because De Ligt is RUMOURED to have turned down 200k a week from United doesn't mean that's what we'd have to pay him.

It's United, even if true maybe he just didn't fancy going there? Ox and VvD both fought for moves to us that paid less than they were offered to play elsewhere as an example.

On Matip he's playing well right now but Klopp really challenges his CBs physically and I'm not getting carried away by Matip's form when he still hasn't gone 6 months of game time without injury. It's also not guaranteed he'll extend his deal. He's apparently on low basic because his sign on fee from signing for free has been getting paid weekly. Is he going to want a wage which equals the two combined together? A pay rise? Essentially a pay cut once his bonus runs out next season?

At his age, availability, wages, last 2 years on contract and his profile are Lovren and the club happy for him to be 4th choice? From a business point of view this is perfect time to sell. From a players point of view it may be last chance to go be a star CB starter at a decent level club.

Gomez will likely play at RB a bit next season providing he stays fit. So won't be available in the middle all the time.

VvD isn't getting rested which is a quick way to nobble a player. He still only made something like 50 games which is the minimum we will play next year. He needs resting sometimes next season and could get injured too. We need to cope without him.

With somewhere between 50 and 70 games next season we are looking at 100-140 starting spots. A new signing under Klopp probably isn't making more than 30 starts, VvD isn't likely to make more than 50. Leaves somewhere between 20 and 60 starts at CB for the others. With injuries to Lovren, Matip and Gomez and Gomez also covering RB I'm not convinced we are strong enough currently to cope. On paper yeah.

If the club sign De Ligt or another young CB I can definitely see why.
Totally agree with this, at this point you couldn't expect Gomez to stay virtually injury free,Matip has done well lately but he's spent plenty of time out.
Can't agree with Lovren's self assessment, he can be good ,no doubt,but he seems to be subject to brainfarts.
Easy to see De Ligt as a good option,but will he be happy to come here for what we will pay him, and initially he would not be a nailed on starter.
Our effort on Saturday,and Klopp might appeal,if it does,just do it it!
 

indianscouser

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For the first time, I'm really not arsed who joins us.
I'm going fucking stick in no.6 to every tom dick and harry who Trolled us.
We are in great hands, klopp can turn any decent talent into world class.
 

SadiosMio

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You should try this site here: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bruno-fernandes/profil/spieler/240306

It's usually the best regarding stats. And it confirms @CymruRed 's figures.
Completely disagree unless the only stats you want are goals and assists, or very rough and frequently bad and occasionally decent market valuations. The best use of it IMO is contract lengths and it's not always right about that (Milner).

But I apologize for characterizing the previous stats as wrong. But I continue to maintain they're useless as it relates to assessing fitness for a world class Premier League club.

In Liga NOS, Bruno averaged .3 open play goals per 90 minutes (including the games against nobodies; no penalties and no set pieces against terrible defenders and goalkeepers). In the top 5 leagues, among players that played AMC, MC, DMC or a defensive position, the following players did as well or better than that in 1000+ minutes (per whoscored, can't easily get this on transfermarkt): Kai Havertz (0.4), Loftus-Cheek (.4 in 985 min, but still would be above .3 with 1000+ min), Julian Brandt (0.3), Marco Benassi (0.3), Ondrej Duda (0.3), Leon Goretzka (0.3), Nathan Redmond (0.3). Just missing the cut were Saif-Eddine Khaoui, Nicolo Zaniolo, Alvaro Medran, and James Ward-Prowse.

Havertz is the top of the list, and the youngest on the list, and even in a superior league he dribbles past more often. His passing will develop, that skill usually is later in development. So if this is the skill set you want, center mid that can score goals, get Havertz.

The ones that truly fit the Bruno Fernandes profile of averaging fewer than 1 completed dribble per 90 from the above? Benassi, Goretzka and Ward-Prowse. Does anyone think Liverpool needs Ward-Prowse?
 
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SithBaare

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He'll probably still end up going to Barca. But if we can get him on a reasonable deal salary wise without having to shaft the likes of matip, gomez. It will be a great deal. Liverpool and the other English clubs play more games than the other European clubs. That requires greater bench strength.

All that said , don't think we need a 100m investment in cb , not when there are deals to be made elsewhere for much cheaper. And you've got Nat Phillips , ki-jana on as youth players. Do need someone there to cover for injuries though. Gomez , Matip and lovren have all been injured with some regularity.
 

SadiosMio

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We aren't signing De Ligt. I know we're all desperate for transfer news given its nearly three days since we last won a trophy but we aren't breaking the bank on another CB.

You'd be hard pressed to find a team in Europe with a better quartet of centre backs. We have great depth in that spot right now. What we don't have is a second left back or creative depth at attacking midfield and wide forward positions. We'll probably need a reserve keeper too.

I'm all for improving from a position of strength but that's not going to be another world record fee on a centre back.
Exactly. I am not convinced that De Ligt would even be an upgrade at CB for Liverpool (Lovren would walk into the starting XI for Arsenal or Man U given competent management, and stand a good chance for Chelsea). But I'm definitely convinced that we're not paying a 19 year old from the Eredivisie 200k+ per week. Premier League is a rugged league for any central defender, by far the most physically taxing.

No teenager started a single game at CB for any Premier League club this year. No current 20 year old did either (Foyth, Mavropanos, Mepham, Fosu-Mensah the 21 year olds, possible one of those might have been 20 when he started).

In 17/18 the only teenage starter at CB was Declan Rice. Year before that there was possibly Mason Holgate. 15/16 was the completely forgettable combo of Fosu-Mensah, Oxford, Toner, and Miazga. I'm pretty sure only Rice and Mepham of those started more than 10 games.

I think the point is made: very young CBs don't do well in the modern PL. Maybe De Ligt is better, but are you willing to gamble 10+ million a year in wages and more money than it took to buy Van Dijk to find out? I don't think Liverpool will be.
 

JibJab

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Someone made a point in another thread that gave me pause about my pessimism of our interest in De Ligt - the notion that sometimes you buy a really talented player when they're young and available for two reasons beyond squad need - as a longterm investment and as a means of preventing your rivals from doing so.

I don't think our biggest domestic competition will buy him. Man United wants him desperately but no UCL and a club in disarray isn't exactly enticing when you've got better clubs chasing you.

I still think it'll be Barca that lands him. I could see them swinging Umtiti to Man United or Arsenal.
 
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