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The Unreliable Rumours Thread

Red over the water

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A while ago Dembele would have been a brilliant option. Nowadays, for me at least, there’s too many question marks. A basic prerequisite for any professional at Liverpool has to be a willingness to work hard and buy into the team-first ethic.

As a player Dembele has incredible speed and talent that, when it clicks, makes him look world class. But then on other occasions he almost looks like he lacks a footballers instinct, and even basic touch and talent, and he doesn’t quite seem like he knows where his legs are - a bit like a much upgraded, rich man’s version of Djimi Traore. He can also be very wasteful, such as the two occasions when he could have scored against us and got Barcelona a 4-0 lead in the first leg. It drove Messi mad, and if Dembele played for us it would drive us mad too.

But then again, if you look at some of the highlight reel - two feet, dribbling, and pace to go past people for fun, and weigh in with goals, it looks very tempting. If he knuckles down and works, he could be a sensational signing. It would have been best to sign him from France, or at least from Dortmund. The move to Barcelona might have convinced him he’s made it, when that’s the last thing a talented young footballer needs to be thinking.

Thankfully we have a manager who can unravel all that background noise and make the right decision. If the player has gone, Klopp will know. If he wants to fulfill his potential, again, Klopp will know.
 


SadiosMio

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Let he who was not a dumbass as a teenager/young adult cast the first stone. (I'll definitely be keeping my stone.)

Dembele is fantastically talented and skilled. 90m for him may be the bargain of the century. Klopp may be just what he needs. But he has to want to improve his professionalism, and don't mean leaving an apartment a mess.

Also wonder if Barca is so desperate to get rid if they would cover some of his exorbitant wages for a year or two. Might be worth paying an extra 10 million fee to lower the wage bill, then could implement a reverse incentive structure after (bc people protect against losing what they have more than they are motivated by bonus).
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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I also question the whole ‘ his additude could affect the whole squad’ angle, might have been a valid opinion in the days of Rodgers, but under Klopp, I thinks it’s more a case of ‘his whole additude could be affected by the squad’

So long as he’s coming here in some sort of realistic wage comparison, I can’t see a flying winger unsettling what we have built.

It might not work out, but I can’t see him destroying the teams ethos and morale
 

Mascot88

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Let he who was not a dumbass as a teenager/young adult cast the first stone. (I'll definitely be keeping my stone.)

Dembele is fantastically talented and skilled. 90m for him may be the bargain of the century. Klopp may be just what he needs. But he has to want to improve his professionalism, and don't mean leaving an apartment a mess.

Also wonder if Barca is so desperate to get rid if they would cover some of his exorbitant wages for a year or two. Might be worth paying an extra 10 million fee to lower the wage bill, then could implement a reverse incentive structure after (bc people protect against losing what they have more than they are motivated by bonus).
Go on then. I’m well up for pulling Barca’s pants down again. lol
 

Iluvatar

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Dembele like Mbappe is a player we heavily scouted and went all out for but just lost out.

Edwards loves to go back in for a player.

When all the reports seem to indicate we wont spend big unless a proper opportunity presents itself. It would be for a player like him thats for sure.
 



D Fred

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A while ago Dembele would have been a brilliant option. Nowadays, for me at least, there’s too many question marks. A basic prerequisite for any professional at Liverpool has to be a willingness to work hard and buy into the team-first ethic.

As a player Dembele has incredible speed and talent that, when it clicks, makes him look world class. But then on other occasions he almost looks like he lacks a footballers instinct, and even basic touch and talent, and he doesn’t quite seem like he knows where his legs are - a bit like a much upgraded, rich man’s version of Djimi Traore. He can also be very wasteful, such as the two occasions when he could have scored against us and got Barcelona a 4-0 lead in the first leg. It drove Messi mad, and if Dembele played for us it would drive us mad too.

But then again, if you look at some of the highlight reel - two feet, dribbling, and pace to go past people for fun, and weigh in with goals, it looks very tempting. If he knuckles down and works, he could be a sensational signing. It would have been best to sign him from France, or at least from Dortmund. The move to Barcelona might have convinced him he’s made it, when that’s the last thing a talented young footballer needs to be thinking.

Thankfully we have a manager who can unravel all that background noise and make the right decision. If the player has gone, Klopp will know. If he wants to fulfill his potential, again, Klopp will know.
I'd hate to play in that team though, every time anyone gets the ball, where ever they are they have to give it to Messi. All that shite players say about wanting to play with the GOAT, the reality must be so infuriating if you are half decent & want to express your talent fully. It is pretty obvious to me when watching them that Dembele & Coutinho are having to override their programming whenever they get the ball.
 

Red over the water

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It’s a fair comment about the deference shown to Messi inhibiting other players, or at least reducing what they might have otherwise been able to do. In a lesser way, they struggle with that at Spurs with Kane. When he was injured there was pace and movement, and they looked better. When he plays, too much seems to go through him and it’s all a bit more ponderous. We will never know, but I think they would have been a lot more dangerous to us in the CL final with Kane on the bench.
 

Kopstar

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Let he who was not a dumbass as a teenager/young adult cast the first stone. (I'll definitely be keeping my stone.)

Dembele is fantastically talented and skilled. 90m for him may be the bargain of the century. Klopp may be just what he needs. But he has to want to improve his professionalism, and don't mean leaving an apartment a mess.

Also wonder if Barca is so desperate to get rid if they would cover some of his exorbitant wages for a year or two. Might be worth paying an extra 10 million fee to lower the wage bill, then could implement a reverse incentive structure after (bc people protect against losing what they have more than they are motivated by bonus).
The reverse incentive structure you mention has been considered by PL clubs for at least the last five years but they've never been able to get all stakeholders (read, the PFA) to sign up to the idea. Clubs could try putting it in place regardless but it could be difficult to implement initially, present potential interpretation issues (re FFP) for how we record/report wages, and potentially open to challenge legally. I haven't heard of any clubs that have tried it yet although certainly from a psychological point of view it would be interesting to see if there was any tangible difference in performance.
 

Dave-D

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Dembélé is only 22 years old as well, it’s not as if he’s in his prime and has spent his whole career being an idiot. Put him in a squad like Liverpool’s and watch him go, he’d be able to express himself and I’d expect him to toe the line and show the world exactly what he can do.
 

D Fred

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It’s a fair comment about the deference shown to Messi inhibiting other players, or at least reducing what they might have otherwise been able to do. In a lesser way, they struggle with that at Spurs with Kane. When he was injured there was pace and movement, and they looked better. When he plays, too much seems to go through him and it’s all a bit more ponderous. We will never know, but I think they would have been a lot more dangerous to us in the CL final with Kane on the bench.
Agree, Have to admit, I found myself being a little gutted for Moura but was absolutely chuffed they went with Kane to start the game.
 



Red over the water

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Dembélé is only 22 years old as well, it’s not as if he’s in his prime and has spent his whole career being an idiot. Put him in a squad like Liverpool’s and watch him go, he’d be able to express himself and I’d expect him to toe the line and show the world exactly what he can do.
If we were to sign him that’s definitely the hope. He has a huge amount of talent and we could be the ones to consistently unlock it.
 

Chewbazza

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Dembélé is only 22 years old as well, it’s not as if he’s in his prime and has spent his whole career being an idiot. Put him in a squad like Liverpool’s and watch him go, he’d be able to express himself and I’d expect him to toe the line and show the world exactly what he can do.
And yet this season alone he has turned up late or entirely missed Barca training sessions at least 3 times which it is reportedly part of the reason they're looking to offload him.

For me £90m is stupid money anyway. He could be a £90m player, but I personally don't think he's done enough to warrant that price tag yet, and it's more reflective of Barca not wanting to make too big a loss on him.

£50m with coutinho type add-ons and a wage drop, fair enough.
 

Barnestormer

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And yet this season alone he has turned up late or entirely missed Barca training sessions at least 3 times which it is reportedly part of the reason they're looking to offload him.

For me £90m is stupid money anyway. He could be a £90m player, but I personally don't think he's done enough to warrant that price tag yet, and it's more reflective of Barca not wanting to make too big a loss on him.

£50m with coutinho type add-ons and a wage drop, fair enough.
And I still dont think he is a Klopp 'character player' even then, I would imagine nonchalance and laziness rank highly on Klopps pet hate list.
 

Dave-D

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And yet this season alone he has turned up late or entirely missed Barca training sessions at least 3 times which it is reportedly part of the reason they're looking to offload him.

For me £90m is stupid money anyway. He could be a £90m player, but I personally don't think he's done enough to warrant that price tag yet, and it's more reflective of Barca not wanting to make too big a loss on him.

£50m with coutinho type add-ons and a wage drop, fair enough.
Wasn’t he said to be ill on at least one of those occasions and the press just jumped on it as he was having a tough time trying to get into the team.
It think one of the main reasons the fee demanded by Barcelona is so high is they expect him to flourish in the correct setup where the team isn’t build around one player and under the correct tutorage. The last thing they need is the fans to go mental because they sold him on the cheap and he becomes one of the top players in the world and Messi has retired.
 

redbj

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I'd hate to play in that team though, every time anyone gets the ball, where ever they are they have to give it to Messi. All that shite players say about wanting to play with the GOAT, the reality must be so infuriating if you are half decent & want to express your talent fully. It is pretty obvious to me when watching them that Dembele & Coutinho are having to override their programming whenever they get the ball.
they really dont.
 



hugo the horrible

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Dembélé is only 22 years old as well, it’s not as if he’s in his prime and has spent his whole career being an idiot. Put him in a squad like Liverpool’s and watch him go, he’d be able to express himself and I’d expect him to toe the line and show the world exactly what he can do.
I'd agree with this.If he gets his head down and his arse up,he would be really something for us.
Whatever happens here will be what Klopp decides,he'll know whether the lad is worth it it,and likewise Dembele will know what Klopp expects,no..demands,and would come here in no doubt!
 

redbj

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Oh really? Okay!
not that i can be arsed, but are you really claiming the Barca game plan is get the ball and give it to lionel Messi. like as in under seven style playground football?

even cutting you a bit of slack and saying you didn't mean it literally where ever they are on the park (you did say that, but whatever) its still not even remotely true that every attacking situation goes through Messi...it just doesnt happen that way.

granted Barca do use the greatest player of all time as a focal point, but that just becuase its a bit of a no brainer.

id even go so far as to agree that as long as Messi is there no player will usurp him until the very late stages in his career, but no where near 'everyone has to pass it to him'

i also love the bit where you say youd hate to play in that Barca team....me too mate, itd fucking suck playing for Barca.
 

Kopstar

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not that i can be arsed, but are you really claiming the Barca game plan is get the ball and give it to lionel Messi. like as in under seven style playground football?

even cutting you a bit of slack and saying you didn't mean it literally where ever they are on the park (you did say that, but whatever) its still not even remotely true that every attacking situation goes through Messi...it just doesnt happen that way.

granted Barca do use the greatest player of all time as a focal point, but that just becuase its a bit of a no brainer.

id even go so far as to agree that as long as Messi is there no player will usurp him until the very late stages in his career, but no where near 'everyone has to pass it to him'

i also love the bit where you say youd hate to play in that Barca team....me too mate, itd fucking suck playing for Barca.
I turned them down for that very reason.
 

SadiosMio

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not that i can be arsed, but are you really claiming the Barca game plan is get the ball and give it to lionel Messi. like as in under seven style playground football?

even cutting you a bit of slack and saying you didn't mean it literally where ever they are on the park (you did say that, but whatever) its still not even remotely true that every attacking situation goes through Messi...it just doesnt happen that way.

granted Barca do use the greatest player of all time as a focal point, but that just becuase its a bit of a no brainer.

id even go so far as to agree that as long as Messi is there no player will usurp him until the very late stages in his career, but no where near 'everyone has to pass it to him'

i also love the bit where you say youd hate to play in that Barca team....me too mate, itd fucking suck playing for Barca.
Moreso than ever before they do rely on Messi to move the ball into the attacking area, create goal opportunities, and score them. How exactly this affects Dembele, hard to say.

 
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redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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not that i can be arsed, but are you really claiming the Barca game plan is get the ball and give it to lionel Messi. like as in under seven style playground football?

even cutting you a bit of slack and saying you didn't mean it literally where ever they are on the park (you did say that, but whatever) its still not even remotely true that every attacking situation goes through Messi...it just doesnt happen that way.

granted Barca do use the greatest player of all time as a focal point, but that just becuase its a bit of a no brainer.

id even go so far as to agree that as long as Messi is there no player will usurp him until the very late stages in his career, but no where near 'everyone has to pass it to him'
Moreso than ever before they do rely on Messi to move the ball into the attacking area, create goal opportunities, and score them. How exactly this affects Dembele, hard to say.


well, he IS Lionel Messi.

not trying to suggest hes peripheral to Barcas game plan.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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He was before, too. But they didn't depend on him as much as they have this year, in pretty much every way.


you could start an arguement - not a debate- in an isolation tank.

no ones saying hes not influential

i just responded to 'where ever they are they have to give it to Messi. ' with a simply 'they really dont'

there is nothing to see here.
 

SadiosMio

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you could start an arguement - not a debate- in an isolation tank.

no ones saying hes not influential

i just responded to 'where ever they are they have to give it to Messi. ' with a simply 'they really dont'

there is nothing to see here.
All I did is post an article that I remembered from the leadup to the semifinal tie. What you make of it is up to you. None of it is my original work or observation and I have no real commitment to it other than that it's pretty well researched and written by a respected journalist. If you disagree with the article's conclusion, that's your decision.

I'm not trying to start anything -- just trying to contribute to the conversation.
 

SadiosMio

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At any rate, back to Dembele. No matter what the impact of playing at Barcelona with whoever, Dembele has still been a very good goal scorer for a non-striker in open play.

Messi scored a league goal every 130 minutes (minimum 1000 min) from open play per whoscored, easily and not surprisingly the best. Reus was second at 171, then Sadio (177.5), Sancho (183) and O. Dembele (194). Then Mahrez and Sterling not far behind them and Shaqiri would be if he had enough minutes. This could be a reflection of which teams effectively use their other players as scorers, bc LFC, Man City, Barca, Dortmund and Lyon are prominent in the top few dozen of those ranked. But clearly Dembele can do it, no matter how the Barca setup affects or doesn't affect that.

This also puts Dembele's price tag into some perspective. It's a lot, but compared to Messi, Sadio and Sancho, it's not so much, and it's a surprise that he's even theoretically available. Video can mislead, but this guy's video looks like a video game cheat code. It would be amazing if we got a second chance at him, and it should not be missed if there is.
 
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GaryC

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It’s a fair comment about the deference shown to Messi inhibiting other players, or at least reducing what they might have otherwise been able to do. In a lesser way, they struggle with that at Spurs with Kane. When he was injured there was pace and movement, and they looked better. When he plays, too much seems to go through him and it’s all a bit more ponderous. We will never know, but I think they would have been a lot more dangerous to us in the CL final with Kane on the bench.
This is a sign of a "superstar" team i.e. where the "star striker" or "star midfielder" dictates play all the time and the other players dare not stamp their authority. It also indicates a weak manager who cannot manage his "star" players. Thank God Jurgen does not tolerate divas and emphasizes the collective.
"the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
 

D Fred

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**

not that i can be arsed,

Excellent but confusing preface to a long-form critique of a 8 word clause in 3 line post...!

You really claiming the Barca game plan is get the ball and give it to lionel Messi. like as in under seven style playground football?

Ummmmm....not exactly, I like the imagery though, carry on this could be fun

even cutting you a bit of slack and saying you didn't mean it literally where ever they are on the park (you did say that, but whatever)..
Okay, phew, thanks! .... I thought you were going to be aggressively pedantic & interpret my words in their most basic sense based on the use of a preposition employed largely for emphasis but quite obviously applied informally...

...its still not even remotely true that every attacking situation goes through Messi...it just doesnt happen that way.

FFS, Dude....

granted Barca do use the greatest player of all time as a focal point, but that just becuase its a bit of a no brainer.

Thanks! 'No brainer' is an excellent way of describing the dilemma Barcelona's creative players face when they receive the ball in the advance areas Messi is clearly a great option he is, unfortunately, an easy one also.

For the record, in 18/19

Dembele & Coutinho attempted 86 shots on goal, combined, Messi had 139- 53 more shots in 913 less minutes​
*Even allowing for Phil's questionable shot locations at Liverpool he is literally shooting half as much as he was prior to moving to Barca​
Unsurprisingly, both saw their production- goals, assist, dribbles fall to career-low levels​

They are both world class footballers whose primary function appear to consist of facilitating an aging superstar which is more than fine, I guess, but so is playing without the comprises to a young players development that are seemingly necessary when sharing a field with a legend.

Barca are locked into getting the best out of Messi tactically which is smart, his record makes him a good bet, my point was, that isn't necessarily challenging or fulfilling for everyone else.

id even go so far as to agree that as long as Messi is there no player will usurp him until the very late stages in his career, but no where near 'everyone has to pass it to him'

Yeah, I agree! Which means the Nou Camp will continue to be a temporary outpost for world-class attacking players before they go on to revive their careers elsewhere & remind football-lovers everywhere why Barca bought them for record fees in the first place. Hurray!!!!!


I also love the bit where you say youd hate to play in that Barca team....me too mate, itd fucking suck playing for Barca.

I meant that I really did... I'd hate to play for Barca, LITERALLY, f*cking hate it!

I turned them down for that very reason.
I heard Barca you turned you down because you are a naked man-fish with shit hair
 
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D Fred

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At any rate, back to Dembele. No matter what the impact of playing at Barcelona with whoever, Dembele has still been a very good goal scorer for a non-striker in open play.

Messi scored a league goal every 130 minutes (minimum 1000 min) from open play per whoscored, easily and not surprisingly the best. Reus was second at 171, then Sadio (177.5), Sancho (183) and O. Dembele (194). Then Mahrez and Sterling not far behind them and Shaqiri would be if he had enough minutes. This could be a reflection of which teams effectively use their other players as scorers, bc LFC, Man City, Barca, Dortmund and Lyon are prominent in the top few dozen of those ranked. But clearly Dembele can do it, no matter how the Barca setup affects or doesn't affect that.

This also puts Dembele's price tag into some perspective. It's a lot, but compared to Messi, Sadio and Sancho, it's not so much, and it's a surprise that he's even theoretically available. Video can mislead, but this guy's video looks like a video game cheat code. It would be amazing if we got a second chance at him, and it should not be missed if there is.
He is awesome, currently earning 220k a week which may complicate things.