The Unreliable Rumours Thread

[Iluvatar]

If we signed Dembele he wouldn't be a starter for me in our strongest XI. He'll be quality rotation for Mane and Salah out wide, which we need. Do we spend ~£90m for that? Not sure. If that's what we'd be looking at for Dembele I'd rather spend similar on Sancho. If we're not going to spend that unless they strengthen our best XI then I'd rather we spend it on Havertz. If we're looking at no more than £50m-£60m for quality rotation out wide then I think Zaha is the best option, followed by Pepe.

Why wouldn't he be a starter? We could easily play 4231 with Firmino playing the no.10 against the vast portion of teams in the league.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

If we signed Dembele he wouldn't be a starter for me in our strongest XI. He'll be quality rotation for Mane and Salah out wide, which we need. Do we spend ~£90m for that? Not sure. If that's what we'd be looking at for Dembele I'd rather spend similar on Sancho. If we're not going to spend that unless they strengthen our best XI then I'd rather we spend it on Havertz. If we're looking at no more than £50m-£60m for quality rotation out wide then I think Zaha is the best option, followed by Pepe.

Sorry to say I think that attitude/way of thinking will hold us back. No more starting/best 11. Who out of Fabinho, Ox, Henderson, Keita, Wijnaldum makes it in our best 11? They're all good in different ways and depending on fitness, form and opponent depends on who ends up playing. Same with Van Dijk being partnered by Matip or Gomez. Faced with between 50 and 70 games next season 4 forwards could well all start a full "starters" number of games and we still don't come close to covering 3 positions for every game.

 

[igor_piss_can]

Give Dembele Brewster's medal for missing that sitter in the first leg

 

[SadiosMio]

Alisson

Alexander-Arnold -- Gomez -- Van Dijk -- Robertson

Fabinho -- Keita

Dembele -- Firmino -- Mane

Salah​

Go on then, you've twisted my arm.

I wouldn't write hendo out. Though I love both of those mids that are in. Great problem to have.

Feel like this could eliminate the problem of scoreless draws against overmatched teams.

Could flip to a 4-1-4-1 easily as well with a player like Oxlade Chamberlain put in the attacking midfield. IMO what little room for improvement exists is in knocking out the goalless games. Score every game and the league is there to be won.

 

[Kopstar]

Why wouldn't he be a starter? We could easily play 4231 with Firmino playing the no.10 against the vast portion of teams in the league.

Sure, in some games. But if we added Dembele to our existing squad our strongest XI would still be

Alisson
Trent Joe(l) Virgil Robbo
Fabinho
Henderson AOC
Mo Bobby Sadio
​

Whereas if that £90m is spent buying Havertz he starts in one of the midfield slots not taken by Fabinho.

 

[SadiosMio]

Sure, in some games. But if we added Dembele to our existing squad our strongest XI would still be

Alisson
Trent Joe(l) Virgil Robbo
Fabinho
Henderson AOC
Mo Bobby Sadio
​

Whereas if that £90m is spent buying Havertz he starts in one of the midfield slots not taken by Fabinho.

So basically you prefer havertz to dembele? Perfectly valid if so. He's very good, so was dembele in the bundesliga. I don't think there's much chance of havertz going anywhere this summer and with him there's the chance he'll choose Bayern instead when he does leave. Of course dembele might not leave either but this thread currently seems to be temporarily assuming he is available, for the sake of discussion and dreaming.

 

[cynicaloldgit]

Alisson

Alexander-Arnold -- Gomez -- Van Dijk -- Robertson

Fabinho -- Keita

Dembele -- Firmino -- Mane

Salah​

Go on then, you've twisted my arm.

Pffffft.

You forgot Mbappé.

 

[Kopstar]

So basically you prefer havertz to dembele? Perfectly valid if so. He's very good, so was dembele in the bundesliga. I don't think there's much chance of havertz going anywhere this summer and with him there's the chance he'll choose Bayern instead when he does leave. Of course dembele might not leave either but this thread currently seems to be temporarily assuming he is available, for the sake of discussion and dreaming.

My view is that Havertz strengthens our strongest XI whereas Dembele doesn't. That's not me thinking Havertz is better just that he plays in the area of the field where I think we are weakest. Dembele doesn't strengthen our best XI because our front three is already world class. Our CM/AM areas are not.

Sure, if one isn't available and the other is then there's no discussion about which I'd rather bring in. I'd rather add the one we can than not add the one we can't.

However, if Havertz isn't moving even for £90m and we are also being quoted £90m or so for Dembele I'd rather we check if Sancho's available for a similar amount first. Again, if he isn't available, see above.

 

[Iluvatar]

My view is that Havertz strengthens our strongest XI whereas Dembele doesn't. That's not me thinking Havertz is better just that he plays in the area of the field where I think we are weakest. Dembele doesn't strengthen our best XI because our front three is already world class. Our CM/AM areas are not.

Sure, if one isn't available and the other is then there's no discussion about which I'd rather bring in. I'd rather add the one we can than not add the one we can't.

However, if Havertz isn't moving even for £90m and we are also being quoted £90m or so for Dembele I'd rather we check if Sancho's available for a similar amount first. Again, if he isn't available, see above.

I think we've ear marked Aouar for that spot (the Havertz one) as Havertz is going to Bayern. But next summer, once Lallana/Milner move on etc.

 

[Kopstar]

Sorry to say I think that attitude/way of thinking will hold us back. No more starting/best 11. Who out of Fabinho, Ox, Henderson, Keita, Wijnaldum makes it in our best 11? They're all good in different ways and depending on fitness, form and opponent depends on who ends up playing. Same with Van Dijk being partnered by Matip or Gomez. Faced with between 50 and 70 games next season 4 forwards could well all start a full "starters" number of games and we still don't come close to covering 3 positions for every game.

What attitude? I'm not against spending a lot of money on players who are quality rotation/competition for our first XI, even if they're not necessarily automatic starters in our strongest team. If Liverpool want to spend £90m or so on such players then that's fine by me also. However, if £90m could be spent on improving our actual strongest first XI then that is a better use of £90m than spending it on players who merely improve the quality rotation/competition...that's just basic common sense.

 

[Walshy07]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1141630744382660608

Chill

 

[Kopstar]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1141630744382660608

Chill

I see he's got the memo about the Yankees baseball cap.

 

[Foldy]

What attitude? I'm not against spending a lot of money on players who are quality rotation/competition for our first XI, even if they're not necessarily automatic starters in our strongest team. If Liverpool want to spend £90m or so on such players then that's fine by me also. However, if £90m could be spent on improving our actual strongest first XI then that is a better use of £90m than spending it on players who merely improve the quality rotation/competition...that's just basic common sense.

I'd want that 90 million going towards a world class striker, Firmino can then drop back or alternate with whoever we bring in. There are decent squad wingers we could bring in for 30-40 million to cover Mane, Shaqiri is more than adequate cover for Salah IMO.

 

[Kopstar]

I'd want that 90 million going towards a world class striker, Firmino can then drop back or alternate with whoever we bring in. There are decent squad wingers we could bring in for 30-40 million to cover Mane, Shaqiri is more than adequate cover for Salah IMO.

Can you get a world class striker for £90m these days? Do you have anyone in mind? I know of a brilliant Argentinian. 26 years old, lethal, strong mentality...

I should add that I think spending a huge amount on a striker is not on the agenda. Klopp seems to want to keep the path open for Brewster through the middle.

 

[Dimitriy]

QUOTE="Iluvatar, post: 1119393, member: 29972"]
Why wouldn't he be a starter? We could easily play 4231 with Firmino playing the no.10 against the vast portion of teams in the league.
[/QUOTE]
@Iluvatar ....If we can impose this formation away from home, we will get where we all dream for . But I think Dembele needs a bit wider spaces to act, like Mane and Mo....I get this fix ideas, that the last puzzle would be an attacking mid, who is comfortable in tight spaces, tricky player....Last year I thought it would be Fekir ( I still would like him be signed), but somehow this Nicolas Pepe, seems like an upgrade, and more fitting to our game plan. If I am correct he is not injury prone...not once. I watched him last night in a frendly, he easily (from time to time) draws in a playmaking role, looked like no stranger
If we are after him, we can get him for at least 25mil less, lower wage, about the same level of talent, and we will 'mould the fitting', no barca ego
All the best

 

[Flobs]

Letting Divock run down his contract doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If he won't sign, sell him and focus instead on adding another forward.

Buys time that might lead to the player we are after becoming available on the market. Also if that doesn't happen then an extra year for Origi to think about signing a new contract.
I'm not too concerned I can understand why Origi is taking his time to sign and I can understand why the club is not running about like a headless chicken. I just hope that all ends well.

 

[Flobs]

I wouldn't write hendo out. Though I love both of those mids that are in. Great problem to have.

Feel like this could eliminate the problem of scoreless draws against overmatched teams.

Could flip to a 4-1-4-1 easily as well with a player like Oxlade Chamberlain put in the attacking midfield. IMO what little room for improvement exists is in knocking out the goalless games. Score every game and the league is there to be won.

There isn't an attacking mid in a 4141 though there is in the 4411 that we sometimes use.

 

[Ahmed Hussain]

Mbappe to Liverpool would be a dream and a half but it's not happening lol. Then again, pretty flattening stuff he's said about the club lately.

 

[Imgoingred]

What attitude? I'm not against spending a lot of money on players who are quality rotation/competition for our first XI, even if they're not necessarily automatic starters in our strongest team. If Liverpool want to spend £90m or so on such players then that's fine by me also. However, if £90m could be spent on improving our actual strongest first XI then that is a better use of £90m than spending it on players who merely improve the quality rotation/competition...that's just basic common sense.

I completely disagree. We've got such a great starting 11 now that our only way forward is improving our squad. Front 3 is nailed on. Back 4 out of 5 is nailed on - VVD partner still up for debate (Matip or Gomez are great options either way). Midfield spot really has only 1 spot up for grabs - Fabinho and Hendo are nailed on (yes, there is room for debate here) - with Keita to surely improve and AOC coming back. I'm absolutely fine going into the new season with our current midfield options. I'm not fine going into the season with our forward options. If Salah or Mane breaks a leg, we're f**ked. Origi (if he stays) and Shaqiri are no where near the level of our starting 3.

Also others have mentioned it already, but there will be plenty of starting opportunities. We're aiming for 60+ games a season. 180 starting spots for our front 3. That's 45 starts each. Brewster isn't an issue. He's coming back from a long injury and will only see a handful of minutes in games 3-0 up or more.

 

[redfanman]

Letting Divock run down his contract doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If he won't sign, sell him and focus instead on adding another forward.

I think Klopp tends to be fairly conservative regarding his recruitment and values the training he has already invested in a player before deciding whether to simply replace them. Add the busy summer Mane, Firmino and Salah may have and the number of fixtures we have early season i can see why he would be willing to make that sacrifice. In financial terms, losing Divock on a free next summer isnt going to affect our budget much, and Klopps reactions suggest he doesnt think Divock is going to be affected in training or when playing by running down his contract - the same way he trusted Can to deliver in his last year.

 

[redfanman]

Brewster isn't an issue. He's coming back from a long injury and will only see a handful of minutes in games 3-0 up or more.

I think this is unlikely to be the case. He has been relatively fit since March/April, so he should be ready to play after a full summer workout (albeit lacking match sharpness). He is someone the club have huge expectations of and is one of the key reasons we havent been busy in the market for forwards.

He will probably be featuring in the domestic cups as a starter, and get games starting in the league in addition to those he comes off the bench in (and they wont solely be games we are 3-0 up in).

 

[Kopstar]

I completely disagree. We've got such a great starting 11 now that our only way forward is improving our squad. Front 3 is nailed on. Back 4 out of 5 is nailed on - VVD partner still up for debate (Matip or Gomez are great options either way). Midfield spot really has only 1 spot up for grabs - Fabinho and Hendo are nailed on (yes, there is room for debate here) - with Keita to surely improve and AOC coming back. I'm absolutely fine going into the new season with our current midfield options. I'm not fine going into the season with our forward options. If Salah or Mane breaks a leg, we're f**ked. Origi (if he stays) and Shaqiri are no where near the level of our starting 3.

Also others have mentioned it already, but there will be plenty of starting opportunities. We're aiming for 60+ games a season. 180 starting spots for our front 3. That's 45 starts each. Brewster isn't an issue. He's coming back from a long injury and will only see a handful of minutes in games 3-0 up or more.

So Wilson, Origi, Brewster not going to be the ones dividing those 45 starting spots between them? I do want to improve on the options out wide but if I had to choose between Dembele and Havertz it would be Havertz for me. If it was a choice between Havertz and Sancho then it's Sancho.

That's just my view balancing their quality, value for money and sporting need.

Beating Man City in our head to head games is worth more to us than turning one or two would-be draws against the rest into wins.

 

[redbj]

So Wilson, Origi, Brewster not going to be the ones dividing those 45 starting spots between them? I do want to improve on the options out wide but if I had to choose between Dembele and Havertz it would be Havertz for me. If it was a choice between Havertz and Sancho then it's Sancho.

That's just my view balancing their quality, value for money and sporting need.

Beating Man City in our head to head games is worth more to us than turning one or two would-be draws against the rest into wins.

You don’t reckon there’s periods of this season dembele ( who had a decent run at some point) wouldn’t have challenged firmino and Salah for a spot? I reckon Salah central with dembele wide would’ve occurred a few times in the middle of the season.

Even if it just meant the boys were fresher for that one off game vs city.

 

[phnaarg]

If we signed Dembele he wouldn't be a starter for me in our strongest XI. He'll be quality rotation for Mane and Salah out wide, which we need. Do we spend ~£90m for that? Not sure. If that's what we'd be looking at for Dembele I'd rather spend similar on Sancho. If we're not going to spend that unless they strengthen our best XI then I'd rather we spend it on Havertz. If we're looking at no more than £50m-£60m for quality rotation out wide then I think Zaha is the best option, followed by Pepe.

Sorry to take this back a step or 2, but what exactly do people see in Sancho? I've seen him play a few times for both Dortmund and England and I see absolutely nothing of what the hype is about. He's not particularly pacey, he doesn't have much of an ability to beat a man either by pace, skill or incisive pass... he's positionally disciplined but that's about it. Is it the usual English premium? I'm baffled every time I match the hype with the product.

 

[redfanman]

I'm not convinced Havertz or Sancho are really available though. Maybe more value to be had among other clubs cast offs! How would Dybala fit?

Imo it boils down to Origi staying or not. Part of me thinks we'll cash in on him this year if he won't sign a contract extension. We may be flush and can afford him to do that but could use that money for a better player now if one is available and it would be unlike FSG to 'waste' money.

Alternatively, any replacement would take six months to settle and our front three will come back knackered from yet another busy summer, so we probably need someone who can play immediately.

Klopp offering Origi a new contract this summer pretty much rules out him going unless he specifically asks to leave in my opinion.

FSG have sat by while Klopp has allowed Can and Moreno leave on free transfers. I think while Klopp is here and is working well with the other club staff to plan over the short, medium and long term i dont think FSG will have any issues and wont see it as wasting money. His paper value to the club will be pretty low considering we didnt pay much for him and he is entering the final year of his contract. His wages wont be that high either.

 

[Kopstar]

You don’t reckon there’s periods of this season dembele ( who had a decent run at some point) wouldn’t have challenged firmino and Salah for a spot? I reckon Salah central with dembele wide would’ve occurred a few times in the middle of the season.

Even if it just meant the boys were fresher for that one off game vs city.

I think it's more a question of different approaches. Neither of them necessarily being right or wrong. I can certainly get on board with accepting that our front three is world class and that if they're fresh for the big games that will give us the best chance of winning them. In order to keep them fresh (or to compensate for if they're struggling for form) we need to add quality rotation/competition so that if one of them is missing the quality of our attacking triumvirate doesn't drop off too much. We can then field, consistently, a potent attacking three with our world class trio being fresh for the crunch games. Would adding Dembele do that? Possibly.

However, the two league games we played against City we had all three of our world class players. In both games our midfield three was Wijnaldum, Milner, Henderson.

The draw at home followed the defeat away to Napoli where we were awful - we then struggled at Anfield four days later and were lucky to get away with a 0-0 draw thanks to Mahrez missing the penalty at the end. We lacked control and were somewhat fortunate. It's possible that rotating in someone like Dembele instead of one of our front three would have made the difference but I think we'd have been better that game if we had more quality in and greater potency from midfield. We've lacked a consistent goal threat from midfield this season, which you might say will be addressed by AOC but he's never scored more than 3 goals in a PL season. Kai Havertz, at the age of 19, scored 17 and assisted 4 from midfield last year. My personal view is that having someone like him in AM/CM rather than any of our other options for that role would have been more likely to have made the difference than substituting out one of our front three for Dembele.

In addition, having a goal threat arriving from midfield would also take some attention away from the front three, making them even more dangerous. It adds another threat from another direction, decreasing the ability of teams to counter the threats already posed by our front three.

The second league game against City where we also had our front three. They were all fresh and on form, coming off a 5-1 hammering of Arsenal where they all scored (Firmino got a hat-trick). Our midfield three was, again, Wijnaldum, Milner, Henderson. Again we struggled to control the game and pretty much had to by-pass our midfield. D Silva, Fernandinho, B Silva v Wijnaldum, Milner, Henderson is, I'm afraid, a miss-match. Sure, Fabinho's now part of our starting midfield 3 but our AM/CM options in front of him remain weaker than City's. Add Havertz into the mix and I think that's a much more even contest and, as I suggest above, would also increase the potential potency of our front three.

Taking the pressure off them during games might also help keep the three fresh reducing the need to rotate them. Giving us greater control, an increased goal threat, we ought to be able to manage their game time even better such that we're not needing them to play 90 minutes on a consistent basis and we won't need a £90m substitute on the bench. We could instead use Origi, Wilson or Brewster.

If we want to continue with maintaining a potent front three approach for as many games as possible then perhaps Dembele is a good option. But instead we could look at adding a different type of threat - taking the pressure off Mo, Bobby and Sadio to some extent whilst simultaneously making them more dangerous whilst also allowing us greater variety and control in the big matches.

 

[Noo Noo]

I'm of the view that we need 1 or 2 just to freshen things up a bit within the squad but also give the opposition something new to think about. I don't think you can stay still for long in this game, you need to be constantly evolving.

There's also a strong argument of providing cover.

Dembele doesn't strike me as anything special from the little I've seen.

Dunno to be honest

 

[Iluvatar]

I think it's more a question of different approaches. Neither of them necessarily being right or wrong. I can certainly get on board with accepting that our front three is world class and that if they're fresh for the big games that will give us the best chance of winning them. In order to keep them fresh (or to compensate for if they're struggling for form) we need to add quality rotation/competition so that if one of them is missing the quality of our attacking triumvirate doesn't drop off too much. We can then field, consistently, a potent attacking three with our world class trio being fresh for the crunch games. Would adding Dembele do that? Possibly.

However, the two league games we played against City we had all three of our world class players. In both games our midfield three was Wijnaldum, Milner, Henderson.

The draw at home followed the defeat away to Napoli where we were awful - we then struggled at Anfield four days later and were lucky to get away with a 0-0 draw thanks to Mahrez missing the penalty at the end. We lacked control and were somewhat fortunate. It's possible that rotating in someone like Dembele instead of one of our front three would have made the difference but I think we'd have been better that game if we had more quality in and greater potency from midfield. We've lacked a consistent goal threat from midfield this season, which you might say will be addressed by AOC but he's never scored more than 3 goals in a PL season. Kai Havertz, at the age of 19, scored 17 and assisted 4 from midfield last year. My personal view is that having someone like him in AM/CM rather than any of our other options for that role would have been more likely to have made the difference than substituting out one of our front three for Dembele.

In addition, having a goal threat arriving from midfield would also take some attention away from the front three, making them even more dangerous. It adds another threat from another direction, decreasing the ability of teams to counter the threats already posed by our front three.

The second league game against City where we also had our front three. They were all fresh and on form, coming off a 5-1 hammering of Arsenal where they all scored (Firmino got a hat-trick). Our midfield three was, again, Wijnaldum, Milner, Henderson. Again we struggled to control the game and pretty much had to by-pass our midfield. D Silva, Fernandinho, B Silva v Wijnaldum, Milner, Henderson is, I'm afraid, a miss-match. Sure, Fabinho's now part of our starting midfield 3 but our AM/CM options in front of him remain weaker than City's. Add Havertz into the mix and I think that's a much more even contest and, as I suggest above, would also increase the potential potency of our front three.

Taking the pressure off them during games might also help keep the three fresh reducing the need to rotate them. Giving us greater control, an increased goal threat, we ought to be able to manage their game time even better such that we're not needing them to play 90 minutes on a consistent basis and we won't need a £90m substitute on the bench. We could instead use Origi, Wilson or Brewster.

If we want to continue with maintaining a potent front three approach for as many games as possible then perhaps Dembele is a good option. But instead we could look at adding a different type of threat - taking the pressure off Mo, Bobby and Sadio to some extent whilst simultaneously making them more dangerous whilst also allowing us greater variety and control in the big matches.

I think the problem is you are talking about Milner, Henderson and Gini.. A midfield 3 I highly doubt we will see at all next season.

It will be Fabinho + Gini or Hendo + Oxlade or Keita. I agree our midfield was out matched but we have the improvements here already.

What we lack of genuine superstar options for our front 3. I agree Havertz/Sancho would be my picks btw. But I don't think are available and if Dembele is we'd be crazy not to be in the mix as he would be a quality addition.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

Midfield is a lot stronger than attack.

Fabinho-Firmino not much difference in quality level
Henderson-Mane attack better
Ox-Salah attack better
Wijnaldum-Origi midfield better
Keita-Shaqiri midfield better
Milner-Brewster midfield better (for now)
Jones-Wooburn about even maybe
Loan returners
Grujic-Wilson I like Wilson more but Grujic played at a higher level.

So our attack relies on two mega star wingers in our "best 11" and the potential of Brewster a kid who hasn't even kicked a football at senior level.

You have Fabinho and Ox injured Henderson, Keita and Wijnaldum is fine. You have Salah and Firmino injured then Mane is stuck with Origi and Shaqiri. It's nowhere near on the same level.

The main criticism of our CM is an unfair one. People looking for goals and assists. We don't play attacking mids or playmaker types. If that's how you insist on assessing our CM they'll always show as disappointing. It's like assessing Salah on his crosses and thinking he's not being a good winger. It's not what they are there to do in the tactical set up Klopp has imposed.

We face somewhere between 50 and 70 games next season. Players starting more than 40 games are being put at risk of developing injuries especially those who never seem to get summers off from international football. A best 11 or starting 11 doesn't mean anything. We only recruit for that we will have some serious issues at times next season.

With what we've got Origi will probably need to play as much as Mane and Salah out wide, maybe Shaqiri too. We could be forced to play Brewster off the bench nearly every game too. Its really not feasible when you try and think through 3 starters and probably 2 subs on average for maybe 65 games.

 

[Kopstar]

I think the problem is you are talking about Milner, Henderson and Gini.. A midfield 3 I highly doubt we will see at all next season.

It will be Fabinho + Gini or Hendo + Oxlade or Keita. I agree our midfield was out matched but we have the improvements here already.

What we lack of genuine superstar options for our front 3. I agree Havertz/Sancho would be my picks btw. But I don't think are available and if Dembele is we'd be crazy not to be in the mix as he would be a quality addition.

Yep, fully accept that Fabinho knocks one of the three out. But even then our midfield 3 (Fabinho plus any 2 of what we currently have) isn't as strong as City's. Whereas as midfield 3 of Fabinho, Havertz plus any of our existing options is, imo.

It's just different approaches and I change my mind as to what choice I'd make on a weekly basis! Basically, I'm greedy and I want Havertz and quality rotation/competition for our front three (specifically out wide)...so one of Sancho, Zaha, Dembele, Pepe. If we could do that but budget/cost meant we couldn't afford Havertz and Sancho/Dembele but we could afford Havertz and Zaha/Pepe then that's the choice I'd make.

Mike and Jurgen, I want to find out who would start more games for us next year if we signed Havertz and Dembele. I know you wouldn't want to let me down so d'yer mind buying both of them just so we can find out?

Ta.