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The Unreliable Rumours Thread

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Mascot88

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Which 3 are you querying?
Unless I’ve mis-read his post, @Anfield rd Dreamer is now suggesting we only have three capable forwards now.

In my book, we have the normal front three. Then we have the lad who literally won us the European Cup a month ago. Then we have Brewster, who everyone at the the club seem determined to big up at every opportunity, then I think Wijnaldum and Ox could be pulled into the front three on occasions. And possible Keita, although I’d prefer he left to properly nail that midfield slot.

Earlier today he was suggesting Brewster was part of last season’s squad. Either way I’m dizzy.
 

Kopstar

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Unless I’ve mis-read his post, @Anfield rd Dreamer is now suggesting we only have three capable forwards now.

In my book, we have the normal front three. Then we have the lad who literally won us the European Cup a month ago. Then we have Brewster, who everyone at the the club seem determined to big up at every opportunity, then I think Wijnaldum and Ox could be pulled into the front three on occasions. And possible Keita, although I’d prefer he left to properly nail that midfield slot.

Earlier today he was suggesting Brewster was part of last season’s squad. Either way I’m dizzy.
I thought it might have been the contention we play 3 central midfielders and that we have 5 central midfielders as good as Salah, Firmino and Mané are as Forwards (world class).

Right now we have one world class midfielder, Fabinho. He can't really play as an 8 though, nor as a 7 or 10. He's world class solely as a DM.

If ARD is including Henderson, Wijnaldum, Keita and AOC as well then Shaqiri and Origi certainly count towards forwards good enough to start and Brewster hopefully will prove he is too.
 

Red over the water

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But why hold back this year to try it next summer? If the plan is to get those players get one now.

Unless of course you were expecting someone significant to move on first in order to open up some space?

If we were short of cash we could have pushed to find buyers for some or all of Mignolet, Clyne, Lovren, Lallana, Grujic, Kent and Wilson. That would have earned us about £100m and we'd have lost no player that makes a match day squad if everyone is fit.

Promote Grabarra or the Irish lad to number two or pick up a veteran on a free and have van den Berg/Hoever as fourth choice with Fabinho as emergency cover.

Chuck that money at Leverkusen or Dortmund and see who bites.

In reality, I just don't think Klopp sees a lot of need and the players that significantly improve on those we have we're not willing to commit the money to unless we see them playing every week.

Doesn't explain the left back situation though.
All good points, I was just speculating that if we are lumping two summers together for a big splurge, maybe it’s this summer and next summer?

Again it’s just speculation, but maybe we really want to go for Mbappe, but we need to wait for Nike to come online too?
OR maybe we really want Sancho, but Dortmund won’t deal, hence the rumors of us trying for some sort of Keita type of deal?
And maybe it’s Havertz or Aouar, but we want to see how they both do this year? While in the meantime Lallana winds down the clock and we see what Ox can do after his long layoff?

All speculation on my part, but if we are doing two years worth of business, basically in one summer, perhaps this is the one where we are saving up in order to go big in 2020?

(I’m not an accountant, but going big last summer was partly paid for by Coutinho, plus there was a sense that we had sort of been saving up for a splurge leading up to that, plus we had some success with other sales).
 

GaryBarlow99

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I thought everyone agreed Origi deserved a new contract after the season but now he is not good enough? which is it? you can't have everything ...

u guys looking at the budget are way off.. smh.. it has nothing to do with the budget .. the only spot in question behind the front 3 is brewster and we might actually still buy someone in place of him
He did mate but he is not an adequate replacement or back up for Mane and Salah imo. I think most fans expected us to bring in another winger/forward which doesn't look likely so this is probably why he is being questioned. Might sound like a prick here but if it was a choice between Origi or Pepe then I would choose Pepe simply because I think he fits the way we want to play better than Div.
 

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If signing no one this summer got us Mbappe next would you take it?
Yup, definitely. But it will be very hard to get him. His likely destination is Madrid, the first club in the current food chain, and it might well happen next summer.
 

Walshy07

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Yup, definitely. But it will be very hard to get him. His likely destination is Madrid, the first club in the current food chain, and it might well happen next summer.
I actually think he comes here for 4 years then heads to Madrid.
I don’t see hoe Madrid are an attractive offer at the moment. They’re shit and Zidane will be gone soon...again.
 

Iluvatar

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Yup, definitely. But it will be very hard to get him. His likely destination is Madrid, the first club in the current food chain, and it might well happen next summer.
It will be hard, but I think we are a hugely attractive place. Hopefully Bale continues to ruin Madrid’s transfer strategy.

Could also be someone like Sancho etc.

Although I think Brewster gets 1200+ minutes this season.
 

steve.crowford

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I actually think he comes here for 4 years then heads to Madrid.
I don’t see hoe Madrid are an attractive offer at the moment. They’re shit and Zidane will be gone soon...again.
Yeah, Zidane his compatriot and terrible coach who is the only one in history has won three champions leagues in a row )
 

Limiescouse

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Between Trent, Gomez, and Hoever I think we have that RB position covered. Not to mention that Milner, Fabinho, and Henderson can all do a job there in a pinch as well.

Leftback however is another story, as Robertson is the only left footed fullback in the first team. Larouci and Lewis are unproven, and Milner isn't ideal as he's right footed and doesn't offer the width Robertson does.
And? He still is very productive when he plays there. Denis Irwin is one of the greatest LBs the Prem has ever seen - right footed. What matters is if you can do the job, not what label other people have given you at an earlier stage in your career.
 

Richard88

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But why hold back this year to try it next summer? If the plan is to get those players get one now.

Unless of course you were expecting someone significant to move on first in order to open up some space?

If we were short of cash we could have pushed to find buyers for some or all of Mignolet, Clyne, Lovren, Lallana, Grujic, Kent and Wilson. That would have earned us about £100m and we'd have lost no player that makes a match day squad if everyone is fit.

Promote Grabarra or the Irish lad to number two or pick up a veteran on a free and have van den Berg/Hoever as fourth choice with Fabinho as emergency cover.

Chuck that money at Leverkusen or Dortmund and see who bites.

In reality, I just don't think Klopp sees a lot of need and the players that significantly improve on those we have we're not willing to commit the money to unless we see them playing every week.

Doesn't explain the left back situation though.
Based on how the club were willing to wait for Keita and Van Dijk, they're clearly trying to find players who fit perfectly. With that in mind, perhaps the player(s) they fancy for that LW position aren't available right now, but could be next summer. For example, Sessegnon and Werner both have contracts expiring in 2020 and might be worth waiting for to get on free transfers rather than huge outlays.

If we look at CM, this summer isn't the ideal window to bring someone in as there's too much competition for places right now and so probably wouldn't entice new signings. However, in 2020 both Lallana and Milner's contracts expire, which opens up plenty of gametime for a big new signing to take over.

For example, does someone like Havertz really want to come here this summer without the assurance of loads of minutes? It's certainly something that seems to have swayed Brandy from joining in the last couple of years. Next season though there would only be Wijnaldum/Keita/Ox to compete with (assuming that Milner/Lallana aren't extended), and he'd very likely get significant game time. Yes, we could of course unload Milner and Lallana now, but Klopp is a very loyal manager which is why players love playing for him and joining the club so that isn't really realistic. There's also the fact that Havertz is only 2 years into his 5 year deal at Bayer Leverkusen now, but next summer with 2 years left might be the optimum time for them to sell before he gets into the 12-18 months left on his contract when value starts to go down significantly.

As for the leftback situation, I agree that it is far from ideal. The club knew well ahead of time that Moreno would be leaving so had to have been able to line a replacement up. But again, they may be waiting for the "perfect" player to become available, so perhaps they feel that using Milner as a stop-gap backup LB is fine in the short term until they're able to sign their primary LB target.
 

Limiescouse

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For fucks sake.

Nobody is against a bit more forward depth.

Some people a sanguine that it might not be possible, for a variety of reasons.
Or, a lot less of an absolutist position, that on balance sticking with what you have, knowing those players as well as he does, Klopp has decided that is the better option. It doesnt mean we're skint. It doesnt mean there is no one good enough or available. It just means the players at the top of the list of targets are sufficiently difficult to get right now that either we dont think they are worth it or the longer term effect is too big to justify when balanced against the faith in the players he already has who he expects growth from.
 

Walshy07

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Yeah, Zidane his compatriot and terrible coach who is the only one in history has won three champions leagues in a row )
That was then. He left and came back. Not been the same since. I don’t think he turns them round this time. Their defence is awful and midfield is lazy.
 

Limiescouse

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Based on how the club were willing to wait for Keita and Van Dijk, they're clearly trying to find players who fit perfectly.
Yet we went for Salah and Robbo, who by all accounts were merely options on a list of players we pursued for those roles. Sometimes we stick and sometimes we twist. We dont have some paint by numbers approach that can be applied. But what we do have is a team of incredibly capable people with the utmost trust in each other and a collective faith in their convictions that when we make a decision we run with it. Sometimes that means to look at the next guy. Sometimes that means to wait 6 months and offer 20 million more. Sometimes it means waiting 12 moths for then Mbappening.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Are you purposely strawmanning? I explained fully;

"So we have 5 players good enough to be starting for 3 CM positions without any problem so far. But only 3 players good enough to be starting in attack for 3 forward positions. And some people talk like this isn't an issue."

We have 5 players not many of us would mind if they started around 40 games in the midfield 3. We've only got 3 players most of us would accept starting 40 games in our attacking 3. Do you really think Origi and Brewster are at the stage/good enough fit for our team as the likes of Ox, Wijnaldum or Keita? Brewster may become a great player but isn't likely to be at that level from day 1 as a senior pro. Alexander-Arnold, Sterling, Mbappe and other "real deal" type prospects weren't for at least a couple of seasons. Origi, despite a shockingly high productivity in front of goal last season, doesn't fit into the team play as well.
 

Walshy07

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But why hold back this year to try it next summer? If the plan is to get those players get one now.

Unless of course you were expecting someone significant to move on first in order to open up some space?
When mbappe signs next summer either Salah or Mane move on.
 

Richard88

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And? He still is very productive when he plays there. Denis Irwin is one of the greatest LBs the Prem has ever seen - right footed. What matters is if you can do the job, not what label other people have given you at an earlier stage in your career.
I don't think it's a secret that our attack doesn't function as smoothly when Milner plays LB and constantly cuts back inside on his right foot.

But yeah, Klopp does seem fine with having Milner as the backup LB which I guess isn't the worst idea. It probably actually works well that way in terms of gametime in midfield too given that Ox is back now and will eat a chunk of available minutes in midfield. There's only so many minutes to go around after all, so giving Milner some time at LB could be a good solution.
 

Limiescouse

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I don't think it's a secret that our attack doesn't function as smoothly when Milner plays LB and constantly cuts back inside on his right foot.

But yeah, Klopp does seem fine with having Milner as the backup LB which I guess isn't the worst idea. It probably actually works well that way in terms of gametime in midfield too given that Ox is back now and will eat a chunk of available minutes in midfield. There's only so many minutes to go around after all, so giving Milner some time at LB could be a good solution.
Given that anyone we bought would likely be less effective than Robbo, arguably the best LB in the world ATM, I dont think that is the meaningful comparison. What is relevant is how Milner does there compared to the alternatives. The evidence is that despite being right footed he continues to be a total boss. Remember, this is the man who the season before set the CL record for assists in a single campaign.

We as a fan group need to understand there are different ways of doing things. The only way to play is NOT to be as close an analogue to the current incumbent. That line of faulty thinking really clouds a lot of the discussion on this forum ATM with regard to replacement options.
 

Lynch04

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It’s clear to me that Brewster replaces Sturridge, and given how little Sturridge did for us in the last season or two, it’s not too far fetched to see Brewster making more of an impression, even as he starts out as a professional first teamer.

Origi had looked to have lost his way and hadn’t really made a case for himself on loan, but these days he is at least a cult hero and scorer of important goals, so if his head is right, and last season will have helped there, he can be a good option too.

I like Origi on the left and Brewster through the middle. Origi has pace and power, and he can cut inside and shoot well. Brewster looks to me to have great movement in the middle, and timing to get on the end of chances too. Granted, it’s very early to be saying that, but I think that’s how both players can best be deployed next season as back ups for the main three.

Personally I think we need another wide forward too, and we may well sign one before the window shuts, but if we do it will probably mean the end of the line for Kent (no surprise) and Wilson (he’s borderline).
Pretty much agree with this, however, I do think Wilson will be given the season to prove himself.
Additionally, I see Hoever, Laraouci and Elliott getting game time. Admittedly iv only seen a few minutes of Elliott but all 3 of them look to have the ability and confidence to play in the Premier league.

I am surprised we didnt go for Pepe as he seemed the versatile attacker we need.

I personally and iv said this before, would go for Insigne. I admit to only watching him a handful of times but I just believe he suits our style. From my observations he can play across the front 3 and would be an ideal foil for Bobby. I think he would provide that added competition that would raise everyones game.
 

Lynch04

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Brewster's spot isnt in question. Origi gets goals - but his all round play hasnt been that good.
I agree.

I dont think Origi can be considered as a starter. He is very much an impact player at best and Imo playing wide.
He is a reactive player, the goals against Barca and Everton are examples of that.
The 2nd goal v Barcelona he would have missed if he knew what was happening - pre planned.
He comes across well and genuine and so I am made up for him that whatever happens in his career, he can sit his grand children down in future years and say “once upon a time there was this special Football team who were 3 - 0 down to one of the best teams in the world” admittedly they are more likely to believe the story of Little Red Riding Hood but at least both have Happy endings.
 

Richard88

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Pretty much agree with this, however, I do think Wilson will be given the season to prove himself.
Additionally, I see Hoever, Laraouci and Elliott getting game time. Admittedly iv only seen a few minutes of Elliott but all 3 of them look to have the ability and confidence to play in the Premier league.

I am surprised we didnt go for Pepe as he seemed the versatile attacker we need.

I personally and iv said this before, would go for Insigne. I admit to only watching him a handful of times but I just believe he suits our style. From my observations he can play across the front 3 and would be an ideal foil for Bobby. I think he would provide that added competition that would raise everyones game.
I think Hoever will definitely get some starts in the cups at RB, as he's a very polished player.

Elliott has the talent but might still be a bit raw for the first team. That said it wouldn't be a big surprise if he got a few minutes in a some cup games against lower league opposition.

Larouci on the other hand I don't think has any chance of featuring. I just don't see the quality to develop into a first team player, as he simply takes too many risks with his dribbling, and is a bit clumsy in general. We'll most likely be seeing Milner deputise at LB again this season.
 

Lynch04

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I think Hoever will definitely get some starts in the cups at RB, as he's a very polished player.

Elliott has the talent but might still be a bit raw for the first team. That said it wouldn't be a big surprise if he got a few minutes in a some cup games against lower league opposition.

Larouci on the other hand I don't think has any chance of featuring. I just don't see the quality to develop into a first team player, as he simply takes too many risks with his dribbling, and is a bit clumsy in general. We'll most likely be seeing Milner deputise at LB again this season.
I agree that Elliott is probably a bit raw, but its obvious he is technically gifted and being young has that almost ignorant confidence.

Larouci, is very much a work in progress. I accept Milner will be used at LB in Robbo’s absence against the big teams. He is young and so is still learning but from all reports he has come on a lot over the last year. I believe he has the attributes to be successful, decision making will come with time and experience.
 

Mascot88

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Are you purposely strawmanning? I explained fully;

"So we have 5 players good enough to be starting for 3 CM positions without any problem so far. But only 3 players good enough to be starting in attack for 3 forward positions. And some people talk like this isn't an issue."

We have 5 players not many of us would mind if they started around 40 games in the midfield 3. We've only got 3 players most of us would accept starting 40 games in our attacking 3. Do you really think Origi and Brewster are at the stage/good enough fit for our team as the likes of Ox, Wijnaldum or Keita? Brewster may become a great player but isn't likely to be at that level from day 1 as a senior pro. Alexander-Arnold, Sterling, Mbappe and other "real deal" type prospects weren't for at least a couple of seasons. Origi, despite a shockingly high productivity in front of goal last season, doesn't fit into the team play as well.
You never said anything about starting 40 games. You’ve just added this now to bolster your argument.

You actually said we only have three players good enough to start in attack for three positions. That’s implies Origi and Brewster are of no use. Not against Norwich, or Brighton or Newcastle, or anyone we can afford to rotate and give one of the first choice lads a day off to. As I said before, I also think that Ox, Shaqiri and Gini could be drafted into the forward positions if we need to.

I understand where you are coming from, and as I keep saying I’d like Edwards and Klopp to get in a top drawer versatile forward before the window slams shut, but this argument is rapidly shifting from ‘we could do with a bit of depth, to we’re down to the bones and in the middle of a crisis’ and that’s clearly bollocks.

We’ve already been through the issues Ad Nauseam, but those issue keep being swept away as if they don’t matter. Like this is some silly game of football manager or something.

1. We have one of the best, if not the best, front three in the world. Buying someone at around that level is hard. It’s a very small pool of players, and their clubs will be loath to release them. We’re talking breaking our transfer record for a lad who probably isn’t first choice.

2. To compound this, we’ve been on such a run in the transfer market, clubs are going to be very wary about being the next mugs to be taken for a ride by LFC, and they’ll also suspect any player we’re interested is is an absolute diamond.

3. The attractiveness of offering lads who are at roughly the level of our front three (therefore prob the best player at their current club) a rotation spot, is hugely over-estimated. As is the number of games we can realistically offer without pissing off the front three.

Footballers, especially ones with the mentality to play for us, are ambitious. They might accept coming in behind Salah, Firmino and Mane, but they will want to see how they get past one of them to become first choice. Not many lads will fancy themselves to get past one of our forwards.

This principle is best illustrated at left back. 18 months ago, Robbo was persuaded to come here, knowing if he knuckled down and worked hard, he could knock Moreno out of the team. Fast forward to this window, with Robbo firmly established in the position, and Lloyd Kelly is knocking us back to go to Bournemouth.

4. We are in something of a Catch 22, needing, for Klopp’s ethos, ambitious, motivated players who want to work hard and play football. But such players, tend to want to play rather than be someone’s back up.
 

Richard88

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You never said anything about starting 40 games. You’ve just added this now to bolster your argument.

You actually said we only have three players good enough to start in attack for three positions. That’s implies Origi and Brewster are of no use. Not against Norwich, or Brighton or Newcastle, or anyone we can afford to rotate and give one of the first choice lads a day off to. As I said before, I also think that Ox, Shaqiri and Gini could be drafted into the forward positions if we need to.

I understand where you are coming from, and as I keep saying I’d like Edwards and Klopp to get in a top drawer versatile forward before the window slams shut, but this argument is rapidly shifting from ‘we could do with a bit of depth, to we’re down to the bones and in the middle of a crisis’ and that’s clearly bollocks.

We’ve already been through the issues Ad Nauseam, but those issue keep being swept away as if they don’t matter. Like this is some silly game of football manager or something.

1. We have one of the best, if not the best, front three in the world. Buying someone at around that level is hard. It’s a very small pool of players, and their clubs will be loath to release them. We’re talking breaking our transfer record for a lad who probably isn’t first choice.

2. To compound this, we’ve been on such a run in the transfer market, clubs are going to be very wary about being the next mugs to be taken for a ride by LFC, and they’ll also suspect any player we’re interested is is an absolute diamond.

3. The attractiveness of offering lads who are at roughly the level of our front three (therefore prob the best player at their current club) a rotation spot, is hugely over-estimated. As is the number of games we can realistically offer without pissing off the front three.

Footballers, especially ones with the mentality to play for us, are ambitious. They might accept coming in behind Salah, Firmino and Mane, but they will want to see how they get past one of them to become first choice. Not many lads will fancy themselves to get past one of our forwards.

This principle is best illustrated at left back. 18 months ago, Robbo was persuaded to come here, knowing if he knuckled down and worked hard, he could knock Moreno out of the team. Fast forward to this window, with Robbo firmly established in the position, and Lloyd Kelly is knocking us back to go to Bournemouth.

4. We are in something of a Catch 22, needing, for Klopp’s ethos, ambitious, motivated players who want to work hard and play football. But such players, tend to want to play rather than be someone’s back up.
Very well summed up there.
 

Richard88

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Another aspect to consider with regards to transfers is the wage bill.

This summer the following salaries will have been removed from the books, totalling £160k/week, or £8.32m/year (not including Ings or Karius who's salaries have presumably been paid by their loan clubs).
  • Sturridge, 29 ...... £120k
  • Moreno, 27 ......... £40k
  • Ings, 27 ............... £60k
  • Karius, 26 ............ £25k
There are still a few high earners who are now on the fringes of the squad who need to be moved on soon as well:
  • Mignolet, 31...... £60k (2021) - 2nd choice GK
  • Lovren, 30 ....... £100k (2021) - 4th choice CB
  • Clyne, 28........... £70k (2020) - 2nd choice RB
  • Lallana, 31 ........ £70k (2020) - 7th choice CM
  • Milner, 33 ........ £120k (2020) - 6th choice CM
Those wages total 420k/week, or £21.84m/year. Combined with the savings from Sturridge/Moreno, that's £580k/week, or £30.16m/year.

The fact that those high wages will be coming off the books (either by selling them or by their contracts expiring) suggests that there will be plenty of room to make significant additions next summer, particularly as some of these players can be replaced internally by promoting young guys on significantly lower wages.

Milner is perhaps the only one you could justify his current wage for given the number of games he played this season, but going forward his role will likely diminish. That said, perhaps he'd be happy to stick around on a lower salary in a squad role, maybe as backup LB.

Whatever the case, saving up to £580k/week (£30.16m /year) on the wage bill will surely open up enough room to make a couple of big splashes at CM and LW next summer.

This is how the team would look (ages based on 2020) once all the players listed above are moved on (with Milner included at LB):

------------------------------ Alisson (27) ------------------------------------
----------------------------- Grabara (21) ------------------------------------

Trent (21) -------- Gomez (23) ------- Van Dijk (29) ------- Robertson (26)
Hoever (18) ------- Matip (28) ----- Van den Berg (18) -------- Milner (34)

------------------------------ Fabinho (26) -----------------------------------
----------------------------- Henderson (30) ---------------------------------
------------------------------- Grujic (24) -------------------------------------

----------------- Wijnaldum (29) ---------- Keita (25) -----------------------
-------------------- New CM --------------- Ox (26) -------------------------

Salah (28) ------------------- Firmino (28) ----------------------- Mané (28)
Shaqiri (28) ------------------- Origi (25) ------------------------- New LW
Wilson (23) ----------------- Brewster (20) ----------------------------------
Elliott (17) ------------------- Duncan (19) -----------------------------------

Factor in that the club could also sell some of the aforementioned players before their contracts expire, along with the likes of Kent (~£10m), Wilson (~£20m), Woodburn (~£5m), Awoniyi (~£10m), Grujic (~£25m), etc, and that's a healthy boost to the transfer budget in 2020.

These remaining big wages are probably a big reason why we're not seeing much transfer movement this summer, but when a few more of them come off the books in 2020 we'll again see some more signings. And with up to an additional £100m in sales there's no reason why the club shouldn't be able to go big-game hunting for the absolute best players in those two positions.
 
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