The Unreliable Rumours Thread

Mascot88

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Yep if there is any truth to this story it would certainly back you up;

Which is talking about their baseline contracts

Mo Salah is earning a base of 200k per week. I imagine he got a lot more than that last year.

The article doesn’t contradict this.

I have no problem with the idea of the incentivised contracts, it's been known about us for awhile and I think its brilliant. But I don't believe the people who run our finances would allow a situation to occur where having on field success would limit or negatively effect us financially.
No, neither do I. What on earth are you on about?

In what way would the players getting a bonus for winning the champions league jeopardise the financial health of the club going forward?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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This is a point that should be remembered. We all like to engage in a bit of fun speculation about how much we have to spend and who we could bring in, but football finances are nothing like this.

The other one that I see a lot is We pocketed 100m for winning the Champions League - we have loads to spend. In real life LFCs Rewards culture, in which we pay relatively modest wages but load on the add ins for success means a lot of the CL windfall will have ended up in players pockets.

I love that by the way. I’d sooner be paying players the equivalent of huge salaries for delivering trophies rather than paying a 300k weekly base rate incentivising failure like United.
Which is talking about their baseline contracts

Mo Salah is earning a base of 200k per week. I imagine he got a lot more than that last year.

The article doesn’t contradict this.



No, neither do I. What on earth are you on about?

In what way would the players getting a bonus for winning the champions league jeopardise the financial health of the club going forward?
Err you did. Winning under these astute business men that run our club will not mean the club have less money to spend. Any additional costs such as performance related clauses in player contracts or hosting more games will be more than covered in the increases on existing and new sponsorship deals, TV coverage and ticket sales. If we make more money Klopp will have the amount to use should he wish (never a foregone conclusion). Your original post makes it sound like the additional revenues we make are largely or solely swallowed up. There is no way this club is run that way. That's the first to the post, unsustainable success style model. We are built on careful, structured, financing that will increase as we get more successful allowing us to be stronger and stronger. Not winning for now, winning and then continuing to win. I'll be shocked if the wage bill last year has gone up more than 50/60 million at most and possibly not even that much of an increase. It's only one game won difference on the performance clauses after all, the year before was an increase that took into account a whole tournament which we got to the final of that we weren't involved in the year before. It was still seemingly less than 40 million more. It was also the financial year we had Alisson, Keita, Fabinho and others come onto the wage bill with very little coming off whereas there has been a lot less movement to increase things this next financial year. As I said I'm not an expert on this I may have figures and years wrong I don't know but it would really surprise me if the clubs wage bill has gone up as significantly as keeps getting discussed on here like its fact. Our revenues however are growing fast!
 

jgw_geneseo

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I thought instead of bonuses, it's more like escalator clauses?

Made up example- hit 20 goals and your base salary goes from 100k to 140k, so you will be rewarded for life of contract for playing well.

Hit certain incentives, and the value of the contract increases accordingly.

May be way off base, but that's how I had it in my head. Not to say bonuses aren't given- but its the escalator clauses that reward earning playing time and doing well.
 

redfanman

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I thought instead of bonuses, it's more like escalator clauses?

Made up example- hit 20 goals and your base salary goes from 100k to 140k, so you will be rewarded for life of contract for playing well.

Hit certain incentives, and the value of the contract increases accordingly.

May be way off base, but that's how I had it in my head. Not to say bonuses aren't given- but its the escalator clauses that reward earning playing time and doing well.
I've not heard of that before. I think it would be unlikely we were basing bonuses on goals and assists rather than team performances / winning trophies. Locking in a player to a higher rate based simply on one year of performance sounds more risky.
 

Red over the water

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We are a well run club. Salaries have been increasing in the last few years to reward our stars as they should be. Some of them could get more elsewhere (not many clubs, but arguably a small handful) but the point is well made that we have a good bonus structure based on success, and that closes the gap. Our players are very well rewarded. Even then, one or two arguably could get more elsewhere, but at that level you have to look at the whole package. World Champions, European Champions, Prem Champions elect, stability, playing for Klopp...

We offer an incredible set up for the very best in the world to do their thing. I don't want to kick Coutinho, but he left for supposed bigger and better, and LFC conquered all before us!
 

redfanman

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Err you did. Winning under these astute business men that run our club will not mean the club have less money to spend. Any additional costs such as performance related clauses in player contracts or hosting more games will be more than covered in the increases on existing and new sponsorship deals, TV coverage and ticket sales. If we make more money Klopp will have the amount to use should he wish (never a foregone conclusion). Your original post makes it sound like the additional revenues we make are largely or solely swallowed up. There is no way this club is run that way. That's the first to the post, unsustainable success style model. We are built on careful, structured, financing that will increase as we get more successful allowing us to be stronger and stronger. Not winning for now, winning and then continuing to win. I'll be shocked if the wage bill last year has gone up more than 50/60 million at most and possibly not even that much of an increase. It's only one game won difference on the performance clauses after all, the year before was an increase that took into account a whole tournament which we got to the final of that we weren't involved in the year before. It was still seemingly less than 40 million more. It was also the financial year we had Alisson, Keita, Fabinho and others come onto the wage bill with very little coming off whereas there has been a lot less movement to increase things this next financial year. As I said I'm not an expert on this I may have figures and years wrong I don't know but it would really surprise me if the clubs wage bill has gone up as significantly as keeps getting discussed on here like its fact. Our revenues however are growing fast!
Wages have gone up significantly, as have the bonus payments that have been made. There is a ratio often discussed i think from memory 60% of the clubs revenue as being the max the club would like to pay out on wages, and we were on something like 58 or 59% last year.
 

cynicaloldgit

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Wages have gone up significantly, as have the bonus payments that have been made. There is a ratio often discussed i think from memory 60% of the clubs revenue as being the max the club would like to pay out on wages, and we were on something like 58 or 59% last year.
Shit. We’d better start winning less.
 

redfanman

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We are a well run club. Salaries have been increasing in the last few years to reward our stars as they should be. Some of them could get more elsewhere (not many clubs, but arguably a small handful) but the point is well made that we have a good bonus structure based on success, and that closes the gap. Our players are very well rewarded. Even then, one or two arguably could get more elsewhere, but at that level you have to look at the whole package. World Champions, European Champions, Prem Champions elect, stability, playing for Klopp...

We offer an incredible set up for the very best in the world to do their thing. I don't want to kick Coutinho, but he left for supposed bigger and better, and LFC conquered all before us!
He did. But he also left for a childhood dream, not just a bigger pay day.
 

Red over the water

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He did. But he also left for a childhood dream, not just a bigger pay day.
Absolutely. I don't begrudge anyone leaving for a childhood dream, and most people would say Barcelona and Real Madrid are the pinnacle for a lot of global players, especially those from South America.

Even if we continue to win things, and even if the salary we pay is competitive at the highest levels, there will still be players - not many, but there will be some - who would like to go on to a new challenge. It might be lifestyle, weather, travel, trying a new culture... I don't begrudge anyone who has the opportunity.

From the perspective of the club we just need to make ourselves as desirable as possible - wages, winning culture, great manager, etc. and then if anyone does choose to leave, we will be just fine as there will be lots of great players who want to come in.
 
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There is no way our club is run so poor from a business point of view that our expenditure increase for being successful matches or beats our income increases. Yes, we all know and have for awhile, that our wage bill will increase with success due to our bonus scheme on player contracts. But we also know FSG/Gordon are also committed to bringing/keeping that wage bill within a certain percentage of operating costs as well. To the 31st May 18 our wage bill was £264 million 58% of turnover. How much are people really expecting our wage increase to have been? Players wages wouldn't have doubled, they probably haven't even increased by 50%. And not all wages are going to be in line with that or effected by our success. This gets rolled out as an excuse as to why we didn't spend much last year but there are two other possible reasons which seem to fit the facts better. 1: FFP seems to work better if you spend big every other year as it operates on a 3 year cycle. This year and 2 years ago we operated at a net profit the year in between we operated at a net loss. 2: There are very few players who could improve this side and we had a lot of "he'll do for now" style players in the squad that were good enough to get by with. Klopp won't buy for the sake of buying and will wait for his chosen target if need be like with VvD and Keita. As long as who he wants will be available he will wait till he is instead of go for an alternative which he only seems to do once an option is ruled out for the foreseeable. I think it's a combination of those two things, loose operating model to spend big every other year (matches the scouting and recruitment plans of a rolling 2 summer plan) whilst being open to opportunities that would bend/break that (operating well within FFP rules and wage rules gives us room to maneuver) and also keeping up to speed on when these targets are most likely to be at their optimum availability.
Great post Dreamer, your post does make sense, and I may be wrong, but without selling someone , we wont have more than 50m to spend.

In my simple mind, looking at the last few seasons the ins and outs match up.

There was a post earlier that success at LFC costs loads due to performance contracts

There is your point that its ridiculously difficult to find other players

And new contracts have signing bonuses that come out of the transfer budget. (This is my conspiracy theory of choice, which to be fair is better than flat earthers or people who thing Ole will do a good job at utd)

so that means you cant improve for the money we have on a big signing
 

jgw_geneseo

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I've not heard of that before. I think it would be unlikely we were basing bonuses on goals and assists rather than team performances / winning trophies. Locking in a player to a higher rate based simply on one year of performance sounds more risky.
I had it in my head from either Sturridge or Suarez, found this.


Maybe they don't structure them that way any longer, but they certainly did at some point.
 

redfanman

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I had it in my head from either Sturridge or Suarez, found this.


Maybe they don't structure them that way any longer, but they certainly did at some point.
Thats interesting. Perhaps its in their initial contracts to bring them up to a higher level if their performances warrant it. At somepoint i think though it probably hits a ceiling of value.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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FWIW, my company uses escalation (permanent increases in base) for personal performance plus one off bonuses based on company performance.
I just don't think our club would maneuvere itself into a situation where wages increases due to good performance matches or beats the increases in revenue generated by that success. It makes very little business sense and it would mean it would be better for the club, financially, to hover around challenging for trophies but never actually winning them. I've seen no evidence that the club has any kind of self imposed financial lack of ambition, like with Spurs some years and Arsenal when they were paying off the stadium.
 

Limiescouse

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I just don't think our club would maneuvere itself into a situation where wages increases due to good performance matches or beats the increases in revenue generated by that success.
Literally no one has said we did. Mascott simply said that the simple calculation of money available that tend to be presented on threads like this do not reflect reality.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Literally no one has said we did. Mascott simply said that the simple calculation of money available that tend to be presented on threads like this do not reflect reality.
I think I'm just reading things as too strenuously stated but comments like the below make me think people are saying most of the additional money for being successful gets swallowed up;

"In real life LFCs Rewards culture, in which we pay relatively modest wages but load on the add ins for success means a lot of the CL windfall will have ended up in players pockets."

"I think i did read that the surplus from the two CL runs largely went in bonuses to the playing team for getting to the finals.."
 

Mascot88

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Err you did. Winning under these astute business men that run our club will not mean the club have less money to spend. Any additional costs such as performance related clauses in player contracts or hosting more games will be more than covered in the increases on existing and new sponsorship deals, TV coverage and ticket sales. If we make more money Klopp will have the amount to use should he wish (never a foregone conclusion). Your original post makes it sound like the additional revenues we make are largely or solely swallowed up. There is no way this club is run that way. That's the first to the post, unsustainable success style model. We are built on careful, structured, financing that will increase as we get more successful allowing us to be stronger and stronger. Not winning for now, winning and then continuing to win. I'll be shocked if the wage bill last year has gone up more than 50/60 million at most and possibly not even that much of an increase. It's only one game won difference on the performance clauses after all, the year before was an increase that took into account a whole tournament which we got to the final of that we weren't involved in the year before. It was still seemingly less than 40 million more. It was also the financial year we had Alisson, Keita, Fabinho and others come onto the wage bill with very little coming off whereas there has been a lot less movement to increase things this next financial year. As I said I'm not an expert on this I may have figures and years wrong I don't know but it would really surprise me if the clubs wage bill has gone up as significantly as keeps getting discussed on here like its fact. Our revenues however are growing fast!
I understand that you want there to be £100m champions league money sitting in a bank account at the club, ready to be dropped on Jadon Sancho.

The reality is that a lot of that money ends up going on bonuses payable to players, and clauses owed to other clubs in the event of them winning it etc.

I simply don’t understand why you think structuring our wages so that we reward players for winning major honours is financially negligent. Surely the opposite is true.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I understand that you want there to be £100m champions league money sitting in a bank account at the club, ready to be dropped on Jadon Sancho.

The reality is that a lot of that money ends up going on bonuses payable to players, and clauses owed to other clubs in the event of them winning it etc.

I simply don’t understand why you think structuring our wages so that we reward players for winning major honours is financially negligent. Surely the opposite is true.
We can, and I believe we are, doing both. I don't agree with you on how much commitment that takes from us financially and how much of our finances are spoken for by doing it. I don't disagree with the club doing that. It's you I'm disagreeing with on your interpretation of what that means. When the latest set of accounts are released I don't believe the wage bill will have increased by more than £60 million (and probably a lot less) and more than 60% of club revenue. I believe club revenue will have increased a lot more than how much the wage bill has increased.
 

Mascot88

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We can, and I believe we are, doing both. I don't agree with you on how much commitment that takes from us financially and how much of our finances are spoken for by doing it. I don't disagree with the club doing that. It's you I'm disagreeing with on your interpretation of what that means. When the latest set of accounts are released I don't believe the wage bill will have increased by more than £60 million (and probably a lot less) and more than 60% of club revenue. I believe club revenue will have increased a lot more than how much the wage bill has increased.
You’re focussing on wage bill. I’m on about bonuses.

And we should also consider that a lot of players would have have clauses payable to their original clubs upon winning the CL. That will have also eaten into the lump sum.

The point is just that we fans tend to be over simplistic on how we view finances. Whatever we got for winning the CL, I doubt the majority of it is still sitting in a bank account.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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You’re focussing on wage bill. I’m on about bonuses.

And we should also consider that a lot of players would have have clauses payable to their original clubs upon winning the CL. That will have also eaten into the lump sum.

The point is just that we fans tend to be over simplistic on how we view finances. Whatever we got for winning the CL, I doubt the majority of it is still sitting in a bank account.
They're a part of the wage bill. They are bonuses factored into these players contracts. The money comes under the wage bill in the accounts.
 

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To @Anfield rd Dreamer and @Mascot88...
My question;- Guys, when you say 60%, does it mean, out of all revenues generated, or is it attached to specific segments?
I know something, how we calculate revenues in banking and how it is dispersed. What goes to the ownership, which part goes to the BO opeartions. And then the branches that generate the "visible" revenues. One can always find accounting gymnastics...Remeber the crash of 2008. The management of those banks, still found ways for hefty bonuses, "financed" thru the government payout, to save them from bankrupcy... I think Anfield rd Dreamer is sceptic that something like that may occur...The mentioned part affiliated to the prize money from UCL is there for everyone to see, and is easiest to spread all over and cover it thru accounting, and than one can say, not to much is available. But, theres a bit more money that come out of that endeavour, needless to mention here...
 

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redfanman

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To @Anfield rd Dreamer and @Mascot88...
My question;- Guys, when you say 60%, does it mean, out of all revenues generated, or is it attached to specific segments?
I know something, how we calculate revenues in banking and how it is dispersed. What goes to the ownership, which part goes to the BO opeartions. And then the branches that generate the "visible" revenues. One can always find accounting gymnastics...Remeber the crash of 2008. The management of those banks, still found ways for hefty bonuses, "financed" thru the government payout, to save them from bankrupcy... I think Anfield rd Dreamer is sceptic that something like that may occur...The mentioned part affiliated to the prize money from UCL is there for everyone to see, and is easiest to spread all over and cover it thru accounting, and than one can say, not to much is available. But, theres a bit more money that come out of that endeavour, needless to mention here...
Yes, i think it is of all revenues.
 

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I am not at all a fan of Danny Rose and his surly demeanor but the report on Sky yesterday that SIX PL teams have contacted Spurs about him had me wondering if we were one of them. With Millie currently being treated in the physio room and Robbo having a bit of a wobble in his form it would be nice to have experienced depth at LB. Rose strikes me as a player that could/would benefit from strong leadership and positive club culture.
I'm neither, but on his day he's a very good player. Over the summer he was openly being shopped by Spurs, I would have hoped that we would have snapped their hands off and sign him as cover for Robertson. Cause lets face it, Robbo should have had a rest a long time ago, that's why his form has dipped a bit.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Seriously doubt Rose has half the work rate and work ethic required to be a Klopp fullback. Achraf Hakimi would be the dream choice for me from my very limited knowledge. Creative enough to play further forward, can play both full back positions. Seems a hard worker. Young. 2 years left on his Real deal when he returns there this summer after his Dortmund 2 year loan. Probably wants to give it a go in Madrid though as making it there is his dream as a youth player for them.
 

Speckydodge

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Seriously doubt Rose has half the work rate and work ethic required to be a Klopp fullback. Achraf Hakimi would be the dream choice for me from my very limited knowledge. Creative enough to play further forward, can play both full back positions. Seems a hard worker. Young. 2 years left on his Real deal when he returns there this summer after his Dortmund 2 year loan. Probably wants to give it a go in Madrid though as making it there is his dream as a youth player for them.
Serious talent , have to imagine Real have big plans for him though especially considering the age of Marcello and Carvajal.