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The Unreliable Rumours Thread

Anfield rd Dreamer

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100m? How do you figure that much? The only squad players I see at risk of being sold are Shaqiri and Lovren. Maybe some small moves are made around them, but I'm guessing the most we'll net for those two is about 50M.
As the other guy said. I would add as a pointing out I said if we added a top attacker we could. By adding one top level attacker we could let Shaqiri and Origi move on. 2 fringe players out, one top player in improved the quality of options whilst creating more room for chances for the likes of Elliott, Jones and Brewster depending who may be on loan.

I'm not sure on Lovren but unfortunately I don't see the room in the squad for Wilson (who I really like) or Grujic (who seems really promising). Wilson repeats the Shaqiri issue as a player who can't accurately translate to any roles in our 433 so he's sitting around twiddling his thumbs like Shaq till a game we want to try 4231. Grujic would be behind Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Ox probably Keita and probably Milner for 3 roles. We will also potentially have Jones around for playing time. Lot of bodies for 3 roles and Grujic isn't some developing kid like Elliott.

With one top player coming in I see Grujic, Wilson, Shaqiri and Origi all moving on without damaging us at all. I think those 4 would (absolute worst case scenario) fetch us at least 80 million. With Edward's it could literally be anywhere up to 140 million the guy seems to be able to get away with over pricing all our departures.
 

Mascot88

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Before we get carried away with the Reddy article haven't we been before? Didn't it lead to Roma dropping the Alisson price by 20/25 million?

The article doesn't even say what it says it does.

"Plausibility and cost are therefore bigger determining factors. Do Liverpool have the financial muscle to secure these brilliant youngsters?"

Err yes actually. We could easily see over 100 million in player sales if a top attacker came in.

"Business will be determined by what the team needs – the ultimate influence – rather than the buzz surrounding high-profile players."

Just because there is a buzz around a high-profile player doesn't mean that player can't also be what the team needs. The two aren't mutually exclusive. VvD, Alisson, Keita and Fabinho were all high profile players with plenty of buzz linking them to various top clubs (although nobody, including Reddy, had any clue we were getting a DM let alone Fabinho even though negotiations lasted nearly a year).

"Unless Liverpool lose one of their pedigreed front three – a situation they are not expecting this summer with none of Sadio Mane, Mohamed Salah or Roberto Firmino showing any intent to exit – there isn’t room for a blockbuster attacking purchase."

Yet she goes on to talk of how Brandt/Salah were being recruited to add to Mane, Firmino and "happy" Coutinho. Also that we don't recruit for 3 months but for a 3 year period. At the end of 3 years are all of Mane, Firmino and Salah expected to still be here? 5/6/7 year plus stays all at over 30.


Also there is loads of wriggle room in what she is saying;

"...policy allows them to be flexible enough to react if there is a need to bring in a game-changer."

So we can go sign big anytime we want like some of us have said.


On needing to buy if unexpected departures happen;

"Liverpool are confident they have greater flexibility in manoeuvring a similar situation now.

This is put down to the strength of the group, the money they can spend, the calibre of players they could attract, all while having the luxury of being patient and waiting a window to get in the right fit if necessary.

Liverpool do not need to panic buy, even in that scenario. The expectation is that they will lose only Adam Lallana and Nathaniel Clyne as it stands, while a few on the fringes might want more minutes elsewhere."

So we aren't planning on buying anyone because we will only be losing Lallana and Clyne? And theres the perfect justification for bringing someone in when the "unexpected" departures of Shaqiri and Origi happen.

"As such, Liverpool are preparing for a relatively quiet summer unless there are any significant problems (an injury to a key player, a core asset pushing to go), which they are geared to solve."

Key player or core asset such as Shaqiri and/or Origi. Significant problems such as some of our players going the AFCON half way through the season for a stretch. Potential justifications for the club changing its mind on buying a player are stacking up.

"Can a target withstand months of patience while getting to grips with Klopp’s demands and mastering the standards on and off the pitch? See Robertson, and more pertinently as he cost £43.7m, it is worth remembering Fabinho didn’t make the matchday 18 when he joined Liverpool."

This does sometimes happen but its actually much more common with Klopps signings that they start getting game time from the start. Especially the expensive, quality ones like Alisson, VvD, Salah, Mane and Keita (who was later dropped).

"...and externally with Liverpool looking at players with high ceilings that are eager to further develop."

Doesn't mean these players can't already be top players.

"As ever, it is worth underscoring that there is fluidity involved with market matters."

Yes there is and there is also no chance the club tells Reddy or the others if they are making a move on a high profile (or even low profile) target till it's nearly done.

Finally; "Do not get sucked into abandoning the principles that have got the club to this point.... there is a massive difference being at the summit versus playing catch-up in trying to reach it....do the league leaders have an interest... Of course they do. It would be utterly ridiculous for them not to. ....the club are aware they have navigated to this position by being responsible and will continue to do so..... flexible enough to react if there is a need to bring in a game-changer.....Liverpool do not need to panic buy.... they are geared to solve...... objective this summer is to stay ahead of the curve and ‘fix the roof while the sun is shining’."!
I think the key point is don’t expect Liverpool to spend 80m + unless it’s to fix a glaring hole in the first eleven. Thats consistent with history, reality, common sense, financial prudence and the Reddy article. It’s also what some of us have been saying for a while now.

Comparing a move for Havertz or Sancho with getting Alisson or Van Dijk is a bit ridiculous. Both of those were urgent glaring holes in the first team, on which the club decided to get the best they could find. The club are happy to drop big money on essential purchases.

Havertz and Sancho are not in this category. There is no glaring first team hole to fill, and as such the club will not sanction club record breaking signings, especially at the kind of crazy prices the post Neymar market would dictate.

There is a perfectly acceptable summer in which we actually do very little. Lallana is replaced by Jones, Shaqiri by Elliot and Lovren by Hoever. Neco Williams steps up to cover Trent. Coming off a season in which we have simply obliterated the league, it’s hard to argue anything more drastic is an absolute necessity.

I think we’ll end up doing something at left back (maybe a versatile winger who has the attributes to cover LB), and maybe look at the midfield depth, but I really don’t expect a huge signing. It’s not the way we work.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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I think the key point is don’t expect Liverpool to spend 80m + unless it’s to fix a glaring hole in the first eleven. Thats consistent with history, reality, common sense, financial prudence and the Reddy article. It’s also what some of us have been saying for a while now.

Comparing a move for Havertz or Sancho with getting Alisson or Van Dijk is a bit ridiculous. Both of those were urgent glaring holes in the first team, on which the club decided to get the best they could find. The club are happy to drop big money on essential purchases.

Havertz and Sancho are not in this category. There is no glaring first team hole to fill, and as such the club will not sanction club record breaking signings, especially at the kind of crazy prices the post Neymar market would dictate.

There is a perfectly acceptable summer in which we actually do very little. Lallana is replaced by Jones, Shaqiri by Elliot and Lovren by Hoever. Neco Williams steps up to cover Trent. Coming off a season in which we have simply obliterated the league, it’s hard to argue anything more drastic is an absolute necessity.

I think we’ll end up doing something at left back (maybe a versatile winger who has the attributes to cover LB), and maybe look at the midfield depth, but I really don’t expect a huge signing. It’s not the way we work.
From the article; "there is a massive difference being at the summit versus playing catch-up in trying to reach it".

I also wouldn't rule out a big arrival to keep us at that summit and to "stay ahead of the curve and ‘fix the roof while the sun is shining’"!

We have 4 starting quality CBs for 2 positions. We have 5/6/7 starting quality CMs for 3 positions. How is having 4 starting quality forwards for 3 positions somehow worse or out of line with something we already have elsewhere in the squad?

And actually define "glaring hole to fill"! Many times the journos closest to the club have discussed our plans for a Coutinho replacement, a player we were happy with and planning on keeping despite him being used mostly in our front 3 which included our current front 3. We even tried to sign players for this role (loose term used but 4th quality attacker). If we were trying to sign players like Fekir for this role then surely that's a role that still is unfilled?

But anyway what it all really boils down to is what you believe the club would tell the journalists closest to us. They won't outright lie (the article says we work on plans "in case" and we have the capacity to move if something comes up) but they won't tell them about a move for a guy like Minamino till days before the deal is completed. If there are any large movements planned this summer they sure as hell aren't giving the game away in February.
 

Limiescouse

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And actually define "glaring hole to fill"! Many times the journos closest to the club have discussed our plans for a Coutinho replacement, a player we were happy with and planning on keeping despite him being used mostly in our front 3 which included our current front 3. We even tried to sign players for this role (loose term used but 4th quality attacker). If we were trying to sign players like Fekir for this role then surely that's a role that still is unfilled?
You are disproving your own point. Yes, we looked for Coutinho replacements and in both high profile cases we backed away over price. Why? Because it wasnt a glaring hole to fill so we were not going to spend Virgil/Alisson money on doing it. What did we do instead? Shaq and Mini for a combined mars bar and a can of coke.
 

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I also wouldn't rule out a big arrival to keep us at that summit and to "stay ahead of the curve and ‘fix the roof while the sun is shining’"!
I wouldn’t rule anything out, and I just know that I trust Klopp and Edwards to do what is right for the club, whether that’s a record signing or nothing at all.

But I do think, yet again, how some fans focus way too much on signings and the transfer market as the default way to improve or maintain a football club.

There are many ways to keep the team competitive, and buying new players is just one way, and clearly not the way Klopp wants to work.

We have 4 starting quality CBs for 2 positions. We have 5/6/7 starting quality CMs for 3 positions. How is having 4 starting quality forwards for 3 positions somehow worse or out of line with something we already have elsewhere in the squad?
Firstly, our options for the forward line are Salah, Mane and Firmino. Then Minamino, Shaqiri and Origi. Then Oxlade-Chamberlain. So we are nowhere near as thread as you say we are.

Secondly, we’re just as likely to respond to an absence with a change of shape than personnel.

And actually define "glaring hole to fill"! Many times the journos closest to the club have discussed our plans for a Coutinho replacement, a player we were happy with and planning on keeping despite him being used mostly in our front 3 which included our current front 3. We even tried to sign players for this role (loose term used but 4th quality attacker). If we were trying to sign players like Fekir for this role then surely that's a role that still is unfilled?
Or plans change?

I suspect what happened in the season following the Fekir summer, was that Klopp adjusted his thinking on what his Midfield should be doing.

It’s just my theory, but I think that had the signing of Fekir happened, we would have transitioned to a 4231.

But during the season Trent and Robbo stepped forward and became the primary attacking outlets from a deeper position. This led Klopp away from configuring his midfield as a creative force and towards one built more to facilitate and protect Trent and Robbo marauding forward. Therefore, no need to spend £60m on an attack midfielder.

And having said all this, the club did just sign Minamino who is the fourth attacking option, albeit at the price one who probably satisfies that elusive target of being someone happy to be in rotation, cheap and tactically flexible.

But anyway what it all really boils down to is what you believe the club would tell the journalists closest to us. They won't outright lie (the article says we work on plans "in case" and we have the capacity to move if something comes up) but they won't tell them about a move for a guy like Minamino till days before the deal is completed. If there are any large movements planned this summer they sure as hell aren't giving the game away in February.
Reddy is a good footy journalist, but there is always some angle to these pieces, which have been briefed by the club. Playing down need, fan expectation etc.

But beyond this, the article only tells us what deep down we all know. A signing in the price category of Havertz or Sancho is not going to happen unless a pressing need emerges in the team.
 

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Firmino + Mané + Salah + Minamino = 4.
I don't see Minamino as a natural fit as an attacker. He's more of a square peg in a round hole up there. I think he's best suited to play right behind that back line in the midfield.

Really, we only have four forwards on the roster - the big three + Divock. Perhaps Rhian will eventually become that fifth option, but he's still off the pace at the moment. In a pinch, you can throw Ox or Minamino or even Wijnaldum up there. But I think we could use another forward, if only to afford the front three some rest without a significant drop in quality.

Plus - lest we forget - we'll be without Sadio and Mo for about a month next year because of AFCON.
 

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I don't see Minamino as a natural fit as an attacker. He's more of a square peg in a round hole up there. I think he's best suited to play right behind that back line in the midfield.
I thought the whole point of him is that he is able to deputise Bobby?
 

JibJab

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I thought the whole point of him is that he is able to deputise Bobby?
Fair point, and perhaps he will get to that point eventually and be able to adequately play as a false 9. But I think the theory was that Minamino could be a terror in the press once he gets settled, and that's his primary feature rather than the attacking qualities that Bobby also brings to the table. For that reason, I see him more effective in midfield, where his pressing/dribbling qualities are more important and his lesser finishing qualities don't punish him.

Besides, being able to only deputize one player doesn't address those other two who need to have deputies as well.
 

ILLOK

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He's a goal-scoring forward.
That doesn't mean an awful lot, what's more important is what he can and can't do on a football pitch. Playing in this Liverpool side is a bit different to playing in the sides he previously has.

Does he have the pace and power to play in one of our wide positions? I would suggest not, despite what Transfermarkt says.

Adam Lallana's stats will be similar to those above but it is unarguable that he his best work has always been in the middle of the pitch for us, not the wide areas.
 

Prolix

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Adam Lallana's stats will be similar to those above but it is unarguable that he his best work has always been in the middle of the pitch for us, not the wide areas.
Err...



Minamino: 76% CF, LW, RW.
Lallana: 23% CF, LW, RW.

Minamino can absolutely play in all of the forward positions, central and wide. He has shown in his career that "what he can do" is score goals from any of those positions. I think he'll do fine as the 'first sub' (or rotation) anywhere up top, that includes out wide. He'll play it differently than Salah or Mané, but that's fine.

I would be very surprised if we start using a 4-2-3-1 regularly to get Minamino into the team as an AM, and unless Origi leaves this summer I don't think there is a pressing need for another wide player.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Err...



Minamino: 76% CF, LW, RW.
Lallana: 23% CF, LW, RW.

Minamino can absolutely play in all of the forward positions, central and wide. He has shown in his career that "what he can do" is score goals from any of those positions. I think he'll do fine as the 'first sub' (or rotation) anywhere up top, that includes out wide. He'll play it differently than Salah or Mané, but that's fine.

I would be very surprised if we start using a 4-2-3-1 regularly to get Minamino into the team as an AM, and unless Origi leaves this summer I don't think there is a pressing need for another wide player.
If you look at Wijnaldum or Lallana before Klopp you might not see them playing as DMs or CMs, AMs/10s at most. What a player used to play is not necessarily what they will do under Klopp. I don't expect Minamino to get significant game time full stop. He seems very much the Klavan/Shaqiri style cover option for a specialised role we don't have a talented kid ready to step up into. Obviously Klopp believes in meritocracy so he will have every chance to play his way into contention for multiple roles but I think he is seen as very much a cover option for Firmino and emergency cover on the wings and the more offensive number 8.
 

ILLOK

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Err...



Minamino: 76% CF, LW, RW.
Lallana: 23% CF, LW, RW.

Minamino can absolutely play in all of the forward positions, central and wide. He has shown in his career that "what he can do" is score goals from any of those positions. I think he'll do fine as the 'first sub' (or rotation) anywhere up top, that includes out wide. He'll play it differently than Salah or Mané, but that's fine.

I would be very surprised if we start using a 4-2-3-1 regularly to get Minamino into the team as an AM, and unless Origi leaves this summer I don't think there is a pressing need for another wide player.
Er er er

Firstly, don't take Tranfermrkts designations of LW or LM too seriously.

Secondly, I think if you look at Lallana's stats when he was at Southampton you'll see I am correct. Obviously posting his stats from now shows a different story :rolleyes:
 

Mascot88

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Well, them’s the stats that show Minamino does most of his work in forward positions and is a goal threat.

If that’s not where Klopp ultimately uses him then fair enough, but that’s all we have to go on for now. As far as we know, he is a forward.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I mean, not really. We've all seen him play. Nothing wrong with making a judgement for yourself.

I remember being told on here by many people that Mane can't play on the left because the stats said so.
My very very basic, uneducated, opinion is that he seems to play more like Firmino than anyone else in our side. Maybe a bit quicker but generally Firmino is completely wasted out wide for us and doesn't do anything like the job we want out there.
 

ILLOK

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My very very basic, uneducated, opinion is that he seems to play more like Firmino than anyone else in our side. Maybe a bit quicker but generally Firmino is completely wasted out wide for us and doesn't do anything like the job we want out there.
The way I see it is Minamino will be at his best in central areas. He's really good at taking the ball on the half turn, he can accelerate quickly over 5 yards, his touch is impeccable.

To me, to play wide in our team you need to be quick and strong. He's not strong. Neither is Keita and we saw him have troubles when played wide left. You get in more 1v1 duels for the ball in those areas and the likes of Minamino and Keita aren't strong enough to compete as well as Mane or Salah, and they're not quick enough to compensate. Lallana had similar problems when played out wide. Shaqiri is somwhere in the middle of those lot, and he does well enough, but it's not ideal.

Minamino does look like he gets into good positions though, his movement off the ball looks clever. I think he can probably do a job either side but I doubt it's where we'll see the best of him.
 

Prolix

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Er er er

Firstly, don't take Tranfermrkts designations of LW or LM too seriously.

Secondly, I think if you look at Lallana's stats when he was at Southampton you'll see I am correct. Obviously posting his stats from now shows a different story :rolleyes:
Good catch.

It's 19% at Southampton.
 

ILLOK

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Good catch.

It's 19% at Southampton.
You're clever, shame you're making no point whatsoever in an effort to score a couple.

In 11/12 and 12/13 Lallana played most of his games on the left wing. In 13/14 he started playing more through the middle yet still played more games on the flanks.

Nice try like. For us he played an even number of games as an attacking midfielder to playing on the flanks before he was converted to a central midfield role. So the question is - do you feel he's equally capable of playing on the flanks in this Liverpool side as he is in the midfield?
 

Prolix

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You're clever, shame you're making no point whatsoever in an effort to score a couple.

In 11/12 and 12/13 Lallana played most of his games on the left wing. In 13/14 he started playing more through the middle yet still played more games on the flanks.

Nice try like.
Keep moving those goalposts.

Lallana vs Minamino is an absurd comparison, and one that you introduced.

He's a forward. But sure, maybe he'll play in a position we don't even use.
 

ILLOK

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Keep moving those goalposts.

Minamino is an absurd comparison, and one that you introduced.

He's a forward. But sure, maybe he'll play in a position we don't even use.
Yes, he's a 'forward'. That cannot ever be changed, that's how the game works.
 

Prolix

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Yes, he's a 'forward'. That cannot ever be changed, that's how the game works.
I'd be delighted if you could show me where I said that.

What I actually said was "I would be very surprised if we start using a 4-2-3-1 regularly to get Minamino into the team as an AM". Not that it's impossible, but that it doesn't align with my assessment of the way Minamino will be used. You disagree. I don't really care. I'm happy to be proven wrong and we use Minamino elsewhere / we sign a primarily-wide player. That's not how I read the messages coming out of the club atm.

You rocking up like "wHaT aBoUt AdAm LaLlAnA" like I don't know that players can change positions / uses is a complete waste of my time.
 

ILLOK

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You rocking up like "wHaT aBoUt AdAm LaLlAnA" like I don't know that players can change positions / uses is a complete waste of my time.
Ah right, your initial response to Jibjab of "he's a forward" suggests otherwise. Goalposts moved.
 

Prolix

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Ah right, your initial response to Jibjab of "he's a forward" suggests otherwise. Goalposts moved.
JibJab: "I don't see Minamino as a natural fit as an attacker."
Me: "He's a goal-scoring forward."

His past usage demonstrates not only the positions that he has experience in, but also his aptitude for attacking from those positions.

Could he be used elsewhere than across the front three? Maybe. But I don't think that's consistent with the kind of numbers he has put up in his career. And I definitely don't think it supports the assertion that he isn't a "natural" in attacking roles/positions. That's how he has made his career so far.

I think it is far more likely that he will be used in that way at LFC rather than being moved into 1.) a position we almost never use (#10), or 2.) our most congested part of the pitch re: depth (#8). He will share time across all of the front 3 positions as the 4th forward on the depth chart. In my opinion. Because he's a forward. In my opinion. Nothing in his limited appearances so far suggests otherwise, and nothing in the club's public comments about incoming transfers suggests otherwise either. In my opinion.