The Unreliable Rumours Thread

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,163
I often think like that but then counter that with a feeling of sorrow for the player with the knowledge that if we had signed them they would now be exactly what we'd hopped due to the brilliance of Klopp and his coaching team.
This. Just because we have our recruitment spot on and the players we do and would have signed are perfect for how we would have used and developed them doesn't mean others have their shit together. You look back at players and can frequently point at the one moment it all went to shit for them because of that one move to an ill fitting side or manager. If Klopp had have got hold of these targets and used them in the way that he planned they could have achieved their potential. Likewise if a player like say Robertson had have gone elsewhere would he now be recognised as quite possibly the best attacking left back (and importantly not left wing back) in the world? A player who can both defend and attack to the highest standards? What if someone like Roy had got him at Palace and anchored him to defensive duties or a team that played him just as a wing back with no defensive duties or a team that just played awful full stop? Its one of the reasons I look at some past Klopp targets whose careers have stuttered and think "well actually there must be something there that hasn't been realised yet or we wouldn't have wanted them"! Guys like Dembele and Lemar who are unfancied and unwanted at their current sides and may even be available on loans with options to buy. Could Klopp still make them what they could have been for a fraction of what it would have cost? Its one option that may be open to us, especially as next seasons CL looks like it'll put more fixture congestion challenges on the squads now and they are still trying to go ahead with AFCON this coming Jan. We might need to think outside the box if we still don't want to shackle ourselves to a major financial obligation this summer by buying a top player.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
17,133
Honestly, missing out/choosing not to sign targets in the past has worked in our favour loads of times under Klopp.

We could have had Brandt instead of Salah. Many wanted us to sign Gotze instead of Mane.

Chilwell instead of Robertson.

Zielinksi instead of Gini. Dahoud too, meaning possibly no place for Ox or Keita.

Can instead of Fabinho had he signed a contract.

We could have spent 40 million on Teixeira if Klopp had wanted him enough, which might have stopped us signing Mane.

Many wanted us to pay 92 million for Thomas Lemar.

I'm pretty happy with how it has all panned out.
 

redfanman

TIA Regular
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
15,808
When we didn't spend last summer, the majority of fans were on board. Of course there would be one or two who complain or voice their concern but i do not see why thats a bad thing? I was certainly one of the fans who was onboard with keeping the squad together and there was no need to add anything really.
If you were fine with it last summer then you should be now too. Firstly, we are not even through the season and the window is still closed. Secondly, there is a great deal of uncertainty about the clubs finances, and what the market actually looks like.

Voicing concern isnt a bad thing - its the uneccessary accusatory narratives that go alongside them that irritates the rest of the fan base.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,163
If you were fine with it last summer then you should be now too. Firstly, we are not even through the season and the window is still closed. Secondly, there is a great deal of uncertainty about the clubs finances, and what the market actually looks like.

Voicing concern isnt a bad thing - its the uneccessary accusatory narratives that go alongside them that irritates the rest of the fan base.
Especially with some of the false narratives being created based off it. One of the ones that annoy me the most is that, because the club weren't willing to commit to paying a €50m ish clause this summer (during the period of most uncertainty) that we cant do any big deals, even ones that would mean a lot less being paid in this first 12 months. Another assumption is that because we can't do something this summer (when more accurately we have chosen not to do something we might actually be able to do) we won't be able to do it for several years. All of this is based on Werner, a player who wouldn't have caused a selection headache for Klopp and you wouldn't be able to have an argument over whether he could fit into our best 11, a player who would have purely been strengthening our depth.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,210
Especially with some of the false narratives being created based off it. One of the ones that annoy me the most is that, because the club weren't willing to commit to paying a €50m ish clause this summer (during the period of most uncertainty) that we cant do any big deals, even ones that would mean a lot less being paid in this first 12 months. Another assumption is that because we can't do something this summer (when more accurately we have chosen not to do something we might actually be able to do) we won't be able to do it for several years. All of this is based on Werner, a player who wouldn't have caused a selection headache for Klopp and you wouldn't be able to have an argument over whether he could fit into our best 11, a player who would have purely been strengthening our depth.
One thing that appears to be the case is that when we spend big it is to fill a hole in the side. Alisson and Virgil are the two stand out price tags and the issues in the side they were bought to address we very well documented. Beyond the fact they were both record transfers (of some sort) every other transfer we've made during this run of excellent results has been objectively at least one run below that level in size. Fab was kind of expensive for the role he plays - ball park with Chelsea's acquisition of Kante - but in terms of absolute cost it was a bit of a run of the mill price. Naby for 50 million is probably equivalent to Mo's 30 something million a few years before. Ox was relatively cheap. What all those players have in common is that while some fans might have seen what they could add to the side, it was an incremental improvement, not a sea change the way the two record signings were.

Why is that relevant? Well, we have no such gap in the side anymore. We can all point to things we think are important, but it's all second order stuff...we need an x in case y happens. It is no longer a case of "jesus we cannot fucking defend corners, we need a new CB and keeper." I acknowledge the caveat that the pattern is based on only a small number of data points, but it is also supported by those moves we walked away from. Teixera, Pepe, and Lemar are the most illustrative. We have shown we had the money to pull the trigger, but they all reached cost levels that required them to be fillers of big holes rather than the incremental improvement (if it all) players they were identified as being.

I think this all points to is that with the strength of the side we have and Klopp's seeming faith in the 5 or 6 guys most likely to be in the bench, a big eye watering purchase is unlikely for the time being, and even the next rung down of purchases are going to have to make economic sense in a way that goes beyond simply "do we have the money". It is precisely how we got here and so people shouldnt be upset to see it continue.
 
Last edited:

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,134
I’m would honestly rather see Elliot and Jones get games at this stage. Especially Elliot, who to me looks like he could be an absolute diamond.

A lot of people say he isn’t ready, but we can’t know this. Whenever I’ve seen him with the big boys he hasn’t looked out of place.
 

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
9,271
Honestly, missing out/choosing not to sign targets in the past has worked in our favour loads of times under Klopp.

We could have had Brandt instead of Salah. Many wanted us to sign Gotze instead of Mane.

Chilwell instead of Robertson.

Zielinksi instead of Gini. Dahoud too, meaning possibly no place for Ox or Keita.

Can instead of Fabinho had he signed a contract.

We could have spent 40 million on Teixeira if Klopp had wanted him enough, which might have stopped us signing Mane.

Many wanted us to pay 92 million for Thomas Lemar.

I'm pretty happy with how it has all panned out.
Werner who.. Brewster scored two so far today..
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,210
I’m would honestly rather see Elliot and Jones get games at this stage. Especially Elliot, who to me looks like he could be an absolute diamond.

A lot of people say he isn’t ready, but we can’t know this. Whenever I’ve seen him with the big boys he hasn’t looked out of place.
The confluence of a potentially historically early title win and a crop of talented inexperienced youngsters on the brink is an amazing position to be in. We could see some really interesting line ups over the next few weeks that could stand us in good stead for next year.
 

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
9,271
The confluence of a potentially historically early title win and a crop of talented inexperienced youngsters on the brink is an amazing position to be in. We could see some really interesting line ups over the next few weeks that could stand us in good stead for next year.
Yep maybe just me but I’ve grown out of wanting the buy the next thing, I love seeing the youngsters get their chance.
 

Zoran

Fighting like beavers.
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
19,146
Honestly, missing out/choosing not to sign targets in the past has worked in our favour loads of times under Klopp.

We could have had Brandt instead of Salah. Many wanted us to sign Gotze instead of Mane.

Chilwell instead of Robertson.

Zielinksi instead of Gini. Dahoud too, meaning possibly no place for Ox or Keita.

Can instead of Fabinho had he signed a contract.

We could have spent 40 million on Teixeira if Klopp had wanted him enough, which might have stopped us signing Mane.

Many wanted us to pay 92 million for Thomas Lemar.

I'm pretty happy with how it has all panned out.
Good point, we sometimes easily forget what we wished for at the time. Lesson is that there are often other players/solutions out there. The world doesn't turn around Mbappe, Sancho and Werner. Of course, if some failed elsewhere it doesn't mean they would've failed here. Thankfully, I sense we are really well organized, that the understanding between the people upstairs and Klopp/his staff is top notch.

Quickly on Fabinho though, I don't think we were even linked (mentioned maybe, but certainly nothing serious, I don't think there was a Fabinho topic on TIA) with him when it was announced. That one really happened out of the blue. I was sat on the toilet still in Kiev after the final and saw the news - what a surprise.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
17,133
Good point, we sometimes easily forget what we wished for at the time. Lesson is that there are often other players/solutions out there. The world doesn't turn around Mbappe, Sancho and Werner. Of course, if some failed elsewhere it doesn't mean they would've failed here. Thankfully, I sense we are really well organized, that the understanding between the people upstairs and Klopp/his staff is top notch.

Quickly on Fabinho though, I don't think we were even linked (mentioned maybe, but certainly nothing serious, I don't think there was a Fabinho topic on TIA) with him when it was announced. That one really happened out of the blue. I was sat on the toilet still in Kiev after the final and saw the news - what a surprise.
The first rumours came about 30-45 minutes before it was on the official website iirc. I don't think we'd have signed him had Can renewed his contract though, was more what I was getting at, and I doubt many would swap Can for Fabinho now.
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,134
The confluence of a potentially historically early title win and a crop of talented inexperienced youngsters on the brink is an amazing position to be in. We could see some really interesting line ups over the next few weeks that could stand us in good stead for next year.
Question then. Do we go for the record points total or blood Williams, Jones and Elliot?

Can we do both?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,163
The first rumours came about 30-45 minutes before it was on the official website iirc. I don't think we'd have signed him had Can renewed his contract though, was more what I was getting at, and I doubt many would swap Can for Fabinho now.
Think this is a bit of a leap, its been revealed the club first started working on the Fabinho deal the September before or something. Think we were always bringing him in. Even when we were still trying to persuade Can to extend his deal. If Can stayed or was going to stay maybe we wouldn't have started preparing and using Wijnaldum for a deeper role though?
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,335
Question then. Do we go for the record points total or blood Williams, Jones and Elliot?

Can we do both?
I think we can do both. A whole team of youngsters, or even mostly youngsters like we see in the domestic cups, and we will drop a lot of Premier League points. But the very best youngsters, such as the three mentioned, integrated into a brilliant team, however Klopp chooses, for the remainder of the season?

I think they will rise to the challenge. They will have pressure, as they are trying to stake a claim, but at the same time when they look around and see Alisson, Van Dijk, Mane, etc. they will be filled with confidence to go and express themselves, safe in the knowledge that the whole thing won’t depend on them.

As a side note to this it will be interesting to see if he plays Neco and Trent in the same side, and if Trent gets pushed into midfield, while we are looking at possible future options.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
17,133
Think this is a bit of a leap, its been revealed the club first started working on the Fabinho deal the September before or something. Think we were always bringing him in. Even when we were still trying to persuade Can to extend his deal. If Can stayed or was going to stay maybe we wouldn't have started preparing and using Wijnaldum for a deeper role though?
The club knew there was a very good chance Can was leaving so I see at as just good planning they they started early. If Can had changed his mind I don't think it's feasible that Fabinho would have been signed, that would have meant we had 8 well paid senior players for 3 positions.
 

redfanman

TIA Regular
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
15,808
The club knew there was a very good chance Can was leaving so I see at as just good planning they they started early. If Can had changed his mind I don't think it's feasible that Fabinho would have been signed, that would have meant we had 8 well paid senior players for 3 positions.
I sort of got the impression that everything was pretty much set the previous summer that Can was going. The rest was probably for show with the fans
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,335
I agree with the Can thing, and managing the PR in the last year. It wasn’t in anyone’s interest to be ugly about him moving on, but we all knew the score.

It’s a great wider point above, too, about the signings we ‘missed’ but still coming up trumps with better alternates. The one I wish we got was Dahoud, not because of his footballing skills or even head of hair, which probably replaces Can on that front. I mostly wanted him to come because I wanted to get down with the kids and say that film title, “Dahoud, where’s my car?”
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,163
The club knew there was a very good chance Can was leaving so I see at as just good planning they they started early. If Can had changed his mind I don't think it's feasible that Fabinho would have been signed, that would have meant we had 8 well paid senior players for 3 positions.
Not sure i agree, just as likely to me that we ended up with Fabinho, Can, Henderson, Milner, Wijnaldum and Keita and it would have been Ox missing out with Wijnaldum kept further up the pitch. The move for Fabinho predated the move for Ox and the movement of Wijnaldum into an option as the deepest CM. But we will never know for sure its just guesswork on our part so hardly important that we agree.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,210
Good point, we sometimes easily forget what we wished for at the time. Lesson is that there are often other players/solutions out there. The world doesn't turn around Mbappe, Sancho and Werner. Of course, if some failed elsewhere it doesn't mean they would've failed here. Thankfully, I sense we are really well organized, that the understanding between the people upstairs and Klopp/his staff is top notch.

Quickly on Fabinho though, I don't think we were even linked (mentioned maybe, but certainly nothing serious, I don't think there was a Fabinho topic on TIA) with him when it was announced. That one really happened out of the blue. I was sat on the toilet still in Kiev after the final and saw the news - what a surprise.
I was about 3 pages into the welcome thread before I realized it wasnt a rumor thread
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,210
Question then. Do we go for the record points total or blood Williams, Jones and Elliot?

Can we do both?
Personally, I say fuck off the records stuff. I think whatever record we break now are going to have such a big asterix next to them that they become a bit devalued. What matters is we win the first league title of my middle aged adult life. The next big thing is to drive Pep out of the league by beating him into the ground again next year.
 

FGred

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
3,752
Question then. Do we go for the record points total or blood Williams, Jones and Elliot?

Can we do both?
I’m sure we can do both looking at the championship today Brewster scored two cracking goals for Swansea so we will have to start giving them game time and trust them to do well. The cup games against Everton and shrewsbury really made me very optimistic that they can actually all make the Full transition Into the first team? Ultimately we all have to trust in JK and his team of assistants judgement.
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,134
I’m sure we can do both looking at the championship today Brewster scored two cracking goals for Swansea so we will have to start giving them game time and trust them to do well. The cup games against Everton and shrewsbury really made me very optimistic that they can actually all make the Full transition Into the first team? Ultimately we all have to trust in JK and his team of assistants judgement.
I really want to see what Jones, Elliot and Williams can do when they are dropped in on their own with the big boys.

Too often young players get written off because they get their chances in a team of fellow kids.
 

rab

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2010
Messages
3,472
The change to having a bench of 9 with 5 able to come on should also mean the kids see some more game time.

Fingers crossed the title is wrapped up midweek, then we've seven games to give the kids minutes with the first team that might normally go to the likes of Lallana, Shaqiri or Lovren.

Would like to see Hoever included with Jones, Williams and Elliot too.
 

Speckydodge

TIA Squad Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
2,718
Hoever seems to have been dropped out of the list of our top prospects by a lot of people for some reason that I don't quiet understand. He's an absolute diamond. He missed out on some of the opportunities of first team games with being away with the national under age team but the list is definitely a quartet not a trio in my opinion.
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,134
Hoever seems to have been dropped out of the list of our top prospects by a lot of people for some reason that I don't quiet understand. He's an absolute diamond. He missed out on some of the opportunities of first team games with being away with the national under age team but the list is definitely a quartet not a trio in my opinion.
He is a diamond. But he is trying to get into a position where we are strong and the need to rotate is not as great. Virg and Gomez are locked in to the two positions, Matip is next in line, and then I think Fab would be used before Hoever.

The reason why Elliot is being discussed is because there are big doubts about Origi and Shaq and there is a big chance for Elliot to stake a claim as a squad option.

I do think that the four big academy prospects are Williams, Hoever, Jones and Elliot. But I think Hoever has the toughest path ahead of him.