The Unreliable Rumours Thread

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
9,261
Well I don’t ‘know’ that we will fill holes when they appear. I’d prefer to fill them prior and include a bedding in period.

I still think, we would be wise to improve the squad, freshen it up a bit and strengthen from a position of dominance

I don’t think going into next season with the same squad plus a few Loan recalls would be wise.

For one, it leaves far too much to do in the transfer market a year later and far too much assimilation in that next squad phase.

I understand we are a brilliant team, but I just personally think ticking the squad over from the position we are in now would be better forward planning.

I look at our front three and I honestly think there is a massive drop off in quality to the next players. That sounds disrespectful to the legend that is divock Origi but it’s just my opinion.

I also think a fourth year without tweaking that set up might become a bit predictable

I do like the calls for Fabinho to directly replace Lovren, and I’m inclined to concede we don’t need another full back forcover.

Regarding pressure, I do think that even the best dressing rooms require constant stimulation.
Which is best bought about by change.

Evolution, not revolution.
But does that fresh impetus have to come from external? Why can't Jones and Williams come in and start to put pressure on starters?

Jones for me looks ready, he has the swagger and confidence to want to play.

There is a video somewhere about how Klopp, Peter and Pep changed tactics to push on from 2nd to 1st last summer, I wonder if they are thinking something similar this summer? I think that would be a driver for recruitment over anything else personally.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,146
But does that fresh impetus have to come from external? Why can't Jones and Williams come in and start to put pressure on starters?

Jones for me looks ready, he has the swagger and confidence to want to play.

There is a video somewhere about how Klopp, Peter and Pep changed tactics to push on from 2nd to 1st last summer, I wonder if they are thinking something similar this summer? I think that would be a driver for recruitment over anything else personally.
Not sure any of our more promising kids are quite ready to really kick the front 3 on. Elliott closest or Jones playing out of position on the left. Jones for me should be getting the push now to develop into the most attacking CM in the 8/10 hybrid role, Keita (who can also play a bit deeper) and Ox (who can also cover out of position on the left) are so hit and miss due to inconsistent form and injuries it means we have plenty of half options for the role but leaves it free for Jones to really kick on and make it his own. Like Trent did with RB. Won't play it every game next season but gives him the chance.

There is still a huge deficiency at the wide forward positions that can't be solved internally. We've tried for well over a year now but without two wide, attacking, forwards our attack is a lot less effective and easier to deal with. We still only have two senior and one promising youngster that fit the profile. If we can recruit thats what we need to address.

The way we set up the two wide forwards are as important as any other role on the pitch. Even if we had two VvDs we wouldn't dream of entering the season with just those two senior CBs and Hoever and say "well we can make do with others covering or change tactics sometimes" but that's what we have done for more than one season now with the wide forwards. If Salah and Mane weren't available for nearly every game there is zero chance we would have the successes that we've had. We can't plan to simply not get injuries. We've actually been incredibly lucky with the timings of the injuries they have had.
 

redfanman

TIA Regular
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
15,795
I'd be keen to see an article on Keita's performances and a comparison of the midfield mix they occurred in. Although we think of our midfield as homogenous each of the players are very different.

As @mattyhurst says, we have a bit more clarity as to club income. If we see a few more players leave it probably increases the likelihood of signings. Either one relatively biggish one if the opportunity arises or a couple of youngsters.
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,118
Not sure any of our more promising kids are quite ready to really kick the front 3 on. Elliott closest or Jones playing out of position on the left.
I don’t think Curtis or Harvey are forwards. Neither are particularly pacy, in the way Sarah and Mane are.

But the biggest issue for us, with this forward depth thing, is that Salah and Mane are both legitimately elite players - like top three in the world in their positions. They don’t want to be rested.

I know you can do the numbers and work out how you get four quality forwards equal game time, but the reality is that Mo Salah doesn’t want that. If Mo Salah is fit, Mo Salah expects to play.

The reason why Origi works as a fourth choice for us, is that he doesn’t kick off, he doesn’t want to be on an equal footing with Mo and Sadio, and he’ll take his games where he can.

Maybe the drop off we get when we have to turn to Origi, is the trade off for having two of the five best forwards in the world in the team, who expect - just like you don’t rest Messi - that they play all the games.

The one that gets forgotten is Brewster. He is doing really well at Swansea, and good be a good option as a forward

I’m basically all for an upgrade to Origi, but even if we had money to burn, we can’t pretend this is easy.

We can't plan to simply not get injuries. We've actually been incredibly lucky with the timings of the injuries they have had.
We’re also really good at conditioning, nutrition and recovery. So while luck may play a part, I don’t think it’s fair to overlook the incredible body of people the club have assembled to make sure everything possible is being done to keep players fit
 

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
9,261
I'd be keen to see an article on Keita's performances and a comparison of the midfield mix they occurred in. Although we think of our midfield as homogenous each of the players are very different.

As @mattyhurst says, we have a bit more clarity as to club income. If we see a few more players leave it probably increases the likelihood of signings. Either one relatively biggish one if the opportunity arises or a couple of youngsters.
I know this is back of a fag packet type maths but;

Shaqiri - £15mil (£75k)
Lallana - 0 (£100k)
Lovren - £10mil (£80k)

You could argue without any net increases on our major expense stream (wages) we could cover signing Thiago, and the team loses very little in terms of gametime lost etc.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
15,016
I know this is back of a fag packet type maths but;

Shaqiri - £15mil (£75k)
Lallana - 0 (£100k)
Lovren - £10mil (£80k)

You could argue without any net increases on our major expense stream (wages) we could cover signing Thiago, and the team loses very little in terms of gametime lost etc.
Clyne's wages off the books as well. Yeah, could definitely do something like that.

Alternatively Edwards and his team could pick up 2 unknown players for the same money who their modelling says are about to turn into Mbappé and Messi despite currently looking more like Mitchell and Webb.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,146
I don’t think Curtis or Harvey are forwards. Neither are particularly pacy, in the way Sarah and Mane are.

But the biggest issue for us, with this forward depth thing, is that Salah and Mane are both legitimately elite players - like top three in the world in their positions. They don’t want to be rested.

I know you can do the numbers and work out how you get four quality forwards equal game time, but the reality is that Mo Salah doesn’t want that. If Mo Salah is fit, Mo Salah expects to play.

The reason why Origi works as a fourth choice for us, is that he doesn’t kick off, he doesn’t want to be on an equal footing with Mo and Sadio, and he’ll take his games where he can.

Maybe the drop off we get when we have to turn to Origi, is the trade off for having two of the five best forwards in the world in the team, who expect - just like you don’t rest Messi - that they play all the games.

The one that gets forgotten is Brewster. He is doing really well at Swansea, and good be a good option as a forward

I’m basically all for an upgrade to Origi, but even if we had money to burn, we can’t pretend this is easy.



We’re also really good at conditioning, nutrition and recovery. So while luck may play a part, I don’t think it’s fair to overlook the incredible body of people the club have assembled to make sure everything possible is being done to keep players fit
Disagree with that. Even this season, when we haven't wanted to start an important league game without our first front 3, none of them have gotten injured, they also haven't been rested as much as they need and not really switching to a front 4 we still could have given 13 starts out.

On injuries even the ones we have had have come at lucky times. Salah gets taken down by his shoulder mid way through a season and that could fuck us up. But it was last game of the season. Other injuries have come when we were about to have breaks etc. due to internationals. We get a lot more injuries, throughout the squad, than we do in attack. Thats with the same staff.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,203
Was listening to the TAW wrap yesterday and they brought up a good point that this year the 3 forwards goals have gone down but we have scored more from midfield this year. So maybe we need a forward who just puts the ball in the net to give us something a bit different. Yes Bobby does a lot more than scoring but he only has 8. Id love Son from Spurs.
Look at how we've played. The amount of heavy metal football we've played is way down on previous years in part because of the way teams play us, but also because Klopp has tried to get us to a position where we dont need to play like for 90 minutes. That takes away of the lot of the chances we were previously creating for these forwards. It also means we're playing a lot more football in the opposition third which puts the midfielders closer to goal and gives them more opportunity to get into goal scoring positions.
 

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
9,261
Clyne's wages off the books as well. Yeah, could definitely do something like that.

Alternatively Edwards and his team could pick up 2 unknown players for the same money who their modelling says are about to turn into Mbappé and Messi despite currently looking more like Mitchell and Webb.
Good point, forgot about Clyne, and yes I half expect him to sign Todd Cantwell and play him as left back! Keep up the relegation multi-functional signings.
 

brush85

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
1,725
Well I don’t ‘know’ that we will fill holes when they appear. I’d prefer to fill them prior and include a bedding in period.

I still think, we would be wise to improve the squad, freshen it up a bit and strengthen from a position of dominance

I don’t think going into next season with the same squad plus a few Loan recalls would be wise.

For one, it leaves far too much to do in the transfer market a year later and far too much assimilation in that next squad phase.

I understand we are a brilliant team, but I just personally think ticking the squad over from the position we are in now would be better forward planning.

I look at our front three and I honestly think there is a massive drop off in quality to the next players. That sounds disrespectful to the legend that is divock Origi but it’s just my opinion.

I also think a fourth year without tweaking that set up might become a bit predictable

I do like the calls for Fabinho to directly replace Lovren, and I’m inclined to concede we don’t need another full back forcover.

Regarding pressure, I do think that even the best dressing rooms require constant stimulation.
Which is best bought about by change.

Evolution, not revolution.
But what you are saying here, is exactly what was being said by so many, last summer. Now at some point, this argument will be on the money because everything becomes true at some point. Especially in sport.

City won the league last year...spent however much million and went backwards.
Same with Chelsea in 2006...dominated the league. Brought in the big names and took a step backwards.
In a way, same thing happened to United in 2001.

There is no correct formula here. We will see 19 teams in this league buy players this summer and all think they have improved their squads immeasurably...and how many of those teams will feel good about those squads by the end of the season?
Nobody thinks we should never buy players ever again and think we have a self sustaining death star. It just means that what the club have done to get to this point is by being diligent at every point. Not copying the methods of the past and finding their own way to building.
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,118
Disagree with that. Even this season, when we haven't wanted to start an important league game without our first front 3, none of them have gotten injured, they also haven't been rested as much as they need and not really switching to a front 4 we still could have given 13 starts out.

On injuries even the ones we have had have come at lucky times. Salah gets taken down by his shoulder mid way through a season and that could fuck us up. But it was last game of the season. Other injuries have come when we were about to have breaks etc. due to internationals. We get a lot more injuries, throughout the squad, than we do in attack. Thats with the same staff.
But you can’t make a conparison between someone like Matip - who appears to be made of crisps - and Mane - who is obviously incredibly resilient to injury.

The lack on injuries in the forward line are not just about luck. Those three lads are obviously less injury prone than some of the lads in defence and midfield. Everybody's body is different....

You also making an assumption that they need more rest, but I think this isn’t necessarily true, and certainly the people best able to make this assessment are already working at the club.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,146
But what you are saying here, is exactly what was being said by so many, last summer. Now at some point, this argument will be on the money because everything becomes true at some point. Especially in sport.

City won the league last year...spent however much million and went backwards.
Same with Chelsea in 2006...dominated the league. Brought in the big names and took a step backwards.
In a way, same thing happened to United in 2001.

There is no correct formula here. We will see 19 teams in this league buy players this summer and all think they have improved their squads immeasurably...and how many of those teams will feel good about those squads by the end of the season?
Nobody thinks we should never buy players ever again and think we have a self sustaining death star. It just means that what the club have done to get to this point is by being diligent at every point. Not copying the methods of the past and finding their own way to building.
But..... one injury to Salah or Mane that took them out for few months last year or this and all our successes would have gone up in smoke. There is nothing that can be done to stop contact injuries in football. We have been so damn fortunate that irreplaceable players have not had them at bad times for us.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,146
But you can’t make a conparison between someone like Matip - who appears to be made of crisps - and Mane - who is obviously incredibly resilient to injury.

The lack on injuries in the forward line are not just about luck. Those three lads are obviously less injury prone than some of the lads in defence and midfield. Everybody's body is different....

You also making an assumption that they need more rest, but I think this isn’t necessarily true, and certainly the people best able to make this assessment are already working at the club.
Those people also have to balance what would happen to the teams chances of success without that player at all as opposed to that player at 80%. You can't plan how to avoid contact injuries. If they can they should have been sacked after the CL final against Real for not adequately managing what happened to Salah and Karius. Very remiss of them.
 

big noyd

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
2,717
the easiest way to see this squad growing from development of the players we already have, imo, is for keita & jones to replicate the industry of gini/hendo @ the twin 8s while providing more creativity, playmaking, and (from jones, at least) goals

ox adds very little when he's featured in the front 3 (though he hasn't been great in midfield lately either), i suspect playing jones there would be a similar misallocation of resources
 

rab

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2010
Messages
3,466
I know this is back of a fag packet type maths but;

Shaqiri - £15mil (£75k)
Lallana - 0 (£100k)
Lovren - £10mil (£80k)

You could argue without any net increases on our major expense stream (wages) we could cover signing Thiago, and the team loses very little in terms of gametime lost etc.
Minamino's wages from January. New contracts in the works for Gini Alisson and Virgil. Robertson, Milner, Ox, Matip all signed new contracts in the last 12 months. Klopp's new contract also signed in the last 12 months. Pay rises for Williams, Jones and Eliott.

We love to count wages going off the books but rarely do we factor in the continual increases we're having to accommodate. Add in each of those new contracts also comes with an agent dipping his hand in our pocket. Despite only buying one senior player in the past two windows we somehow lead the way on agent fees in that time to the tune of £30m.

So all those savings have probably already been spent elsewhere.
 

big noyd

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Messages
2,717
You also making an assumption that they need more rest, but I think this isn’t necessarily true, and certainly the people best able to make this assessment are already working at the club.
they're both 28, talismanic figures for their national teams, and work a hell of a lot harder than messi does

i don't know if it's prudent to assume they're abnormal bionic freaks like milner
 

Mascot88

Bootroom Member
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
24,118
Those people also have to balance what would happen to the teams chances of success without that player at all as opposed to that player at 80%. You can't plan how to avoid contact injuries. If they can they should have been sacked after the CL final against Real for not adequately managing what happened to Salah and Karius. Very remiss of them.
Come on, that’s not what I’m saying at all.

Obviously you can’t legislate for a Burnley grock snapping Mo’s leg. But you also can’t bring in a quality player on the basis that he’ll get a game if a Burnley grock snaps Mo’s leg.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,203
But..... one injury to Salah or Mane that took them out for few months last year or this and all our successes would have gone up in smoke. There is nothing that can be done to stop contact injuries in football. We have been so damn fortunate that irreplaceable players have not had them at bad times for us.
Or maybe it wouldn't. Maybe the run of consistent games that Naby, Ox, or Origi would have got would have coaxed good enough form out of them that they contributed to our winning run. Maybe it wouldnt have happened. Maybe something else positive would have shaken out for us. We can speculate, but to say it would have gone in smoke, as a definitive, is just not defensible.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,146
Come on, that’s not what I’m saying at all.

Obviously you can’t legislate for a Burnley grock snapping Mo’s leg. But you also can’t bring in a quality player on the basis that he’ll get a game if a Burnley grock snaps Mo’s leg.
The player wouldn't just play due to an injury though. With no injuries, very little rest and no real 4231 set ups this year we still could have, begrudgingly, given someone 13 starts. If you rest each of the front three even for 3 games each more than has happened and choose to set up in 4231 to spank some less dangerous teams in say 5 games and that player could have started more games than Mane. That's without any significant injuries which we are always running the risk with. We really do have plenty of game time even just in the league and still sending squads of uncapped kids out to play domestic cup games. Add in actually trying to field semi strong squads in the cups and even with a player added we would be stretched.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,146
Or maybe it wouldn't. Maybe the run of consistent games that Naby, Ox, or Origi would have got would have coaxed good enough form out of them that they contributed to our winning run. Maybe it wouldnt have happened. Maybe something else positive would have shaken out for us. We can speculate, but to say it would have gone in smoke, as a definitive, is just not defensible.
Naby, Ox and Origi are not going to start playing like Mane and Salah. So we are back to having a playing style that's won us everything but having to change it and hope we can play a different way as successfully based on availability not tactical choice. Its likely to be what we have to do for another year and hopefully something that won't harm us, again, but we really are riding our luck.
 

Noo Noo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
5,499
We love to count wages going off the books but rarely do we factor in the continual increases we're having to accommodate. Add in each of those new contracts also comes with an agent dipping his hand in our pocket. Despite only buying one senior player in the past two windows we somehow lead the way on agent fees in that time to the tune of £30m.

So all those savings have probably already been spent elsewhere.
I could and still cant get my head around that fact. It just doesn't feel right somehow, not with the deals other clubs have been making.

I probably haven't got a clue of the inner workings of agents in reality.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,203
Naby, Ox and Origi are not going to start playing like Mane and Salah. So we are back to having a playing style that's won us everything but having to change it and hope we can play a different way as successfully based on availability not tactical choice. Its likely to be what we have to do for another year and hopefully something that won't harm us, again, but we really are riding our luck.
Might might might might might.

And I will not accept that anything would have seen our season go up in smoke. Jesus christ, we lost our one time world record signing goalie for a quarter of the season and still walked the league.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,146
Might might might might might.

And I will not accept that anything would have seen our season go up in smoke. Jesus christ, we lost our one time world record signing goalie for a quarter of the season and still walked the league.
Because we have a semi decent Goalkeeper who plays in the same way as our starting keeper. We do not have that for Salah and Mane. Lets put it this way start of January this year the shoulder injury that Salah had in the CL final happens to Mane and keeps him out till the lockdown or same time of year the year before Salah gets his bell rung like Karius did that could have seriously impacted on our chances of winning number 6 and we might only just be limping over the line as champions this year. We have been so lucky with the amount of injuries we've had, who they have been too and when they've occurred.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,203
We've been "lucky" in the sense that we overcome the challenges. It seems the definition for whether a problem was real was whether the team struggled to cope. In reality a team can be faced with a problem and rise to meet it, which is what happened to use when the number 1 keeper in the world hobbled off the first game of the season.

but this is all besides the point, which was you can have an opinion, but you make yourself look bad by arguing definitive outcome to a counter factual.
 

redfanman

TIA Regular
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
15,795
Because we have a semi decent Goalkeeper who plays in the same way as our starting keeper. We do not have that for Salah and Mane. Lets put it this way start of January this year the shoulder injury that Salah had in the CL final happens to Mane and keeps him out till the lockdown or same time of year the year before Salah gets his bell rung like Karius did that could have seriously impacted on our chances of winning number 6 and we might only just be limping over the line as champions this year. We have been so lucky with the amount of injuries we've had, who they have been too and when they've occurred.
I think that is over egging your argument a bit. Yes, we are somewhat fortunate that our front 3 have been available for as much as they have in a season we have had lots of games. But to suggest we've been lucky with injuries is a joke given the number of players we have had out this season from GK, defence and midfield.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,146
I think that is over egging your argument a bit. Yes, we are somewhat fortunate that our front 3 have been available for as much as they have in a season we have had lots of games. But to suggest we've been lucky with injuries is a joke given the number of players we have had out this season from GK, defence and midfield.
Lucky with who has been injured and when.
 

redfanman

TIA Regular
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
15,795
Lucky with who has been injured and when.
Nope, point still stands. We haven't won the league solely because of the performances of our forwards. And, we've done so with numerous other players being injured through out the season. We've demonstrated numerous ways of winning games while having more injuries than City, and a more difficult schedule.