Timo Werner (CF) RB Leipzig

What will Werner be leaning on?

  • The Wall of Champions, pointing at the newly installed 6

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Nabil Fekir's knee

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A bog standard table, with a bog standard pen, and a sheet of random paper

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Champions League trophy for some weird reason

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sadio's jockstrap

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The railing at Melwood

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ralf Rangnick's animosity

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A giant can of Red Bull, cos he's not coming

    Votes: 1 100.0%

  • Total voters
    1

Iluvatar

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We should be reticent to assume too much from one game, especially one in which we took the lead and took the pressure off so early. However, Mane has payed CF numerous times before, and every time I have seen him there he looks just as dangerous and a horrible pain the arse to play against as he does on either side. I think even without this idea, a wider forward/winger/stringer * was more important than a pure striker, but I think this performance reinforces that idea (even despite the encouraging performance from Origi in stand in for Mane on the left).
Klopp said yesterday/today that Wednesday was the first time Mane believed he was world class in that position. As you say even without the goals he is a nightmare to play against, which Klopp backs up by saying even without scoring he makes the space for others to score.

I think the huge element of playing the no.9 (call it false 9 if you wish) is the off the ball movement. The ability to arrive on time, to press intelligently (you are closing down 2-3 passing lanes v's 1-2), to basically be a live wire. He does this well.
 

redfanman

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Klopp said yesterday/today that Wednesday was the first time Mane believed he was world class in that position. As you say even without the goals he is a nightmare to play against, which Klopp backs up by saying even without scoring he makes the space for others to score.

I think the huge element of playing the no.9 (call it false 9 if you wish) is the off the ball movement. The ability to arrive on time, to press intelligently (you are closing down 2-3 passing lanes v's 1-2), to basically be a live wire. He does this well.
I dont think his stats when playing that position at Southampton were particularly good. Maybe he didnt have the confidence or support around him to make the most of it.
 

JibJab

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Not to be a prick mate but who out there is a regular goalscorer in a top league, young, available and can play in all 3 forward positions?
Rhian Brewster is already on our wage sheet and he is going to get rotation minutes at forward in the years to come. You add rotation options like Ox and Shaq, who can also play midfield if necessary, and your depth is fine up front. From my perspective, adding Werner at a high price is a luxury - you won't start him over Mo, Sadio, or Bobby, so you're spending upwards of 50M on a player who will be sitting on the bench. And his quality is, in my view, an open question.

I want to improve our depth at AM so that our goalscoring is not solely generated by our front three. The lack of creativity from our midfielders has been our biggest liability thus far. There are several intriguing options in Europe that could make a dent in our starting XI next to Fab and Nab.
 

ILLOK

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Our midfield is very good, certainly far from a liability. These arguments about attacking midfielders completely ignore how we're set up in the 433. Keita, Gini, Milner and Chamberlain are great options for the '8' roles, finding a nice balance between defence and attack. Getting Ox back will be a huge boost.

Could it be improved? Sure, but it's far, far more effective than generally given credit for and that's without Keita fully settled and no Chamberlain. Having another attacking option for the front 3 and better options at fullback when Trent and Robbo are out is probably just as important.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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Rhian Brewster is already on our wage sheet and he is going to get rotation minutes at forward in the years to come. You add rotation options like Ox and Shaq, who can also play midfield if necessary, and your depth is fine up front. From my perspective, adding Werner at a high price is a luxury - you won't start him over Mo, Sadio, or Bobby, so you're spending upwards of 50M on a player who will be sitting on the bench. And his quality is, in my view, an open question.

I want to improve our depth at AM so that our goalscoring is not solely generated by our front three. The lack of creativity from our midfielders has been our biggest liability thus far. There are several intriguing options in Europe that could make a dent in our starting XI next to Fab and Nab.
So in CM we have Fabinho, Henderson, Keita, Ox and Wijnaldum competing for 3 roles and you want to add a AM to that group but you don't want to add a forward to our front 3 because you'd have a £50 million player sitting on the bench? Hate to break it to you but we ALREADY have players worth that sitting on our bench. I actually agree on bringing in an AM to share a position with Ox. With Henderson and Fabinho sharing a position and Keita and Wijnaldum sharing a position that'd be a properly world class midfield and is what's needed to compete with the best/deepest squads out there for four competitions. But we definitely need better options in attack too. I'd be looking at the very best left sided forward we can get. It'd free Mane up to cover Firmino in a 433 like the last game or for Mane to sometimes play on the right when we play 4231.
 

JibJab

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So in CM we have Fabinho, Henderson, Keita, Ox and Wijnaldum competing for 3 roles and you want to add a AM to that group but you don't want to add a forward to our front 3 because you'd have a £50 million player sitting on the bench? Hate to break it to you but we ALREADY have players worth that sitting on our bench.
Past purchases and projected value of current squad members are irrelevant to my point. This is about where we can be most efficient with our transfer kitty going forward, and I think that 50M can be better spent on someone who would be in our best XI instead of as a fourth choice forward. Unless you're telling me that Werner is better than Mo, Sadio, or Firmino.

If we can do both, sure! But adding a top quality, creative AM is my priority.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Past purchases and projected value of current squad members are irrelevant to my point. This is about where we can be most efficient with our transfer kitty going forward, and I think that 50M can be better spent on someone who would be in our best XI instead of as a fourth choice forward. Unless you're telling me that Werner is better than Mo, Sadio, or Firmino.

If we can do both, sure! But adding a top quality, creative AM is my priority.
I could argue that your AM may find himself 4th or 5th choice behind Fabinho, Keita, Wijnaldum and/or Ox in a 433 just as easily. And if we set up in a 4231 we'd have that new player competing with Firmino to play behind Salah and so far in that formation we've had Mane on the right leaving an obvious starter role available on the left. When Ox is back he may get played on the right and Mane move to the left or Ox maybe used to rotate with Firmino. Either way we are both asking for a starting quality AM but if I had to choose between that player and a starting quality player for the left wing it's the winger I'd choose as our most pressing need. If any two of Henderson, Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Keita and Ox are injured we would still have a top class starting CM 2/3 and that's ignoring Milner, Lallana, Grujic, Curtis Jones and Wilson. If two out of Firmino, Mane and Salah are missing we are putting together a front 3 or 4 out of Shaqiri, Sturridge, Origi, Brewster, Wilson and Cms. Hell we don't even have 4 starting quality attackers for our front 4 for 4231 unless Ox comes back from injury and plays on the right.
 

GaryBarlow99

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It still boggles my mind mate. I've said this time and time again but why is there so much resistance to getting quality players in to provide competition? Last season we had Coutinho and I don't remember anyone saying we should sell him because we had Salah, Firmino and Mane. In fact I think if we still had Coutinho or someone of that ilk we would have more points and some of the performances would have been better especially against low block sides. Having another player for the front 3 would allow us more options and let us give the main three a break.
 

ILLOK

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At various times this season, Werner would have been than Salah, Mane or Firmino. Not sure what with the resistance to accepting that to have a strong squad, it more than having a good first eleven.
It still boggles my mind mate. I've said this time and time again but why is there so much resistance to getting quality players in to provide competition? Last season we had Coutinho and I don't remember anyone saying we should sell him because we had Salah, Firmino and Mane. In fact I think if we still had Coutinho or someone of that ilk we would have more points and some of the performances would have been better especially against low block sides. Having another player for the front 3 would allow us more options and let us give the main three a break.
Wait, who are you arguing against? I haven't seen much resistance to that idea in this thread.

Some of us don't think Werner is all that, but that's a different story.
 

redfanman

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Wait, who are you arguing against? I haven't seen much resistance to that idea in this thread.

Some of us don't think Werner is all that, but that's a different story.
I think some also think there is a greater need to strengthen other spots in the team first - which again isnt totally against the idea, just a prioritisation issue.
 

lfc.eddie

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I think some also think there is a greater need to strengthen other spots in the team first - which again isnt totally against the idea, just a prioritisation issue.
If I am being honest there isn't much areas that needed strengthening other than the extra outlet for goals from midfield. That would also be down to Oxlade-Chamberlain's recovery and whether our youngsters are up for it like their mate Trent to take up that void. Our next window would probably be shopping for backups and squad-fillers, unless we sell one of our current first 11.
 

Notasuperfan

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If I am being honest there isn't much areas that needed strengthening other than the extra outlet for goals from midfield. That would also be down to Oxlade-Chamberlain's recovery and whether our youngsters are up for it like their mate Trent to take up that void. Our next window would probably be shopping for backups and squad-fillers, unless we sell one of our current first 11.

Trent has the makings of a world class right-back.....
 

JibJab

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At various times this season, Werner would have been than Salah, Mane or Firmino. Not sure what with the resistance to accepting that to have a strong squad, it more than having a good first eleven.
I could argue that your AM may find himself 4th or 5th choice behind Fabinho, Keita, Wijnaldum and/or Ox in a 433 just as easily.
First off, an AM is not going to be competing with Fabinho because they play fundamentally different roles in the attack. But otherwise, it depends on the AM, doesn't it?

I look at some of our competition at the elite levels of club football, and I see the depth and quality of their midfielders that we currently don't measure up to. City, for example, benefits from having some quality forwards in Sane, Aguero, Jesus, and Sterling. But they also have midfielders who can not only create goalscoring opportunities for those forwards, but can also create them for themselves: De Bruyne, Mahrez, and the Silvas. Real Madrid has Isco and Modric. Spurs have Alli and Eriksen. Barca have Messi, Rakitic, and Coutinho.

The only AM on our roster who has that level of quality is Keita, and he hasn't quite measured up thus far. Ox was dangerous in the second half of last year prior to getting injured, so it remains to be seen what he'll look like post injury. Wijnaldum and Milner are great for squad depth. And who knows what we'll see from Gruijic or Wilson.

Perhaps we can find a player who can fill both an AM and Forward role, like Fekir would have been if that transfer has been successful. But creativity from the middle of the pitch is key, because the vast majority of our goal scoring opportunities start from a wing, and when that happens, we cut the pitch in half and that makes it easier for opponents to defend us when they're parking the bus.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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First off, an AM is not going to be competing with Fabinho because they play fundamentally different roles in the attack. But otherwise, it depends on the AM, doesn't it?

I look at some of our competition at the elite levels of club football, and I see the depth and quality of their midfielders that we currently don't measure up to. City, for example, benefits from having some quality forwards in Sane, Aguero, Jesus, and Sterling. But they also have midfielders who can not only create goalscoring opportunities for those forwards, but can also create them for themselves: De Bruyne, Mahrez, and the Silvas. Real Madrid has Isco and Modric. Spurs have Alli and Eriksen. Barca have Messi, Rakitic, and Coutinho.

The only AM on our roster who has that level of quality is Keita, and he hasn't quite measured up thus far. Ox was dangerous in the second half of last year prior to getting injured, so it remains to be seen what he'll look like post injury. Wijnaldum and Milner are great for squad depth. And who knows what we'll see from Gruijic or Wilson.

Perhaps we can find a player who can fill both an AM and Forward role, like Fekir would have been if that transfer has been successful. But creativity from the middle of the pitch is key, because the vast majority of our goal scoring opportunities start from a wing, and when that happens, we cut the pitch in half and that makes it easier for opponents to defend us when they're parking the bus.
Yet again I've said I would look to buy one. I don't disagree that one is needed/wanted. However we don't line up in s similar formation to those teams you've mentioned. Keita, Henderson or Wijnaldum would be our deeper "8" in our 433 leaving the further forward "8" to be our only real AM in that formation which would be filled by Keita or Ox. Actually Wijnaldum has done well here and there in that role too. So if Fabinho is starting as one of our 3 CMs in 433 then that means only 2 places between the others and only one which could be considered an AM. In 4231 it becomes even more complicated as Ox, Firmino or Keita could all be options on that number 10 role in the middle of the 3 behind the striker. Firmino would be an option up top, Ox an option on the right and Keita an option in the CM 2 so we could still buy a player for the role but we can definitely cope without if need be. We don't compare favourably to some other teams, especially City, as they play formations that could be described fairly as 4222 with 2 starting AM roles or (in City's case) 4123 with 2 starting AM roles as well as 2 winger roles either side of a CF. Unless we change our formation we won't need as many of the same type of player as those teams. However all the teams you mentioned have better depth in their attack than we do. Except maybe Spurs. Literally our left wing is either Mane or a CF/CM playing out of position (Keita, Origi, Firmino). And Mane can play on the right in 4231 or up top in 433. We are crying out for a player in that position. If Mane missed a bunch of games now we would struggle in that position. Yet Mane is the first back up to play on the right or up top if Salah or Firmino missed a run of games. But how can he cover there if there's nobody to play on the left if he does?
 

JibJab

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Yet again I've said I would look to buy one. I don't disagree that one is needed/wanted. However we don't line up in s similar formation to those teams you've mentioned. Keita, Henderson or Wijnaldum would be our deeper "8" in our 433 leaving the further forward "8" to be our only real AM in that formation which would be filled by Keita or Ox. Actually Wijnaldum has done well here and there in that role too. So if Fabinho is starting as one of our 3 CMs in 433 then that means only 2 places between the others and only one which could be considered an AM. In 4231 it becomes even more complicated as Ox, Firmino or Keita could all be options on that number 10 role in the middle of the 3 behind the striker. Firmino would be an option up top, Ox an option on the right and Keita an option in the CM 2 so we could still buy a player for the role but we can definitely cope without if need be. We don't compare favourably to some other teams, especially City, as they play formations that could be described fairly as 4222 with 2 starting AM roles or (in City's case) 4123 with 2 starting AM roles as well as 2 winger roles either side of a CF. Unless we change our formation we won't need as many of the same type of player as those teams. However all the teams you mentioned have better depth in their attack than we do. Except maybe Spurs. Literally our left wing is either Mane or a CF/CM playing out of position (Keita, Origi, Firmino). And Mane can play on the right in 4231 or up top in 433. We are crying out for a player in that position. If Mane missed a bunch of games now we would struggle in that position. Yet Mane is the first back up to play on the right or up top if Salah or Firmino missed a run of games. But how can he cover there if there's nobody to play on the left if he does?
Look, I know we're not disagreeing on the need for an AM. I read that in your first reply. But it seems that we disagree about matters of priority. I agree that a forward would be a nice addition, but my priority is an AM for the reasons I mentioned.

Fortunately, there may be options out there who can help us fill both needs. I think the ideal would be to sign a player like Fekir who can capably fill both roles. If I can't do so, I'll prioritize an AM because I feel our forwards - whomever they are - could benefit tremendously from someone who can slice a defense through the middle of the pitch and capably distribute the ball into the box in any direction. And I want them on the pitch with Mane, Firmino, and Salah so they can exploit the back line from all directions.

That's my main point here. I respect your perspective as well as it has merit. But we don't have to agree completely. :-):cheers:
 

Dave-D

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I seen an article in which it is said that Bayern have not made contact with Leipzig about Werner and that he’ll go to the highest bidder in the summer as Leipzig ain’t letting him walk away for nothing. I wouldn’t have a problem with Liverpool even just pushing up the fee Bayern pay and offering him better wages just so Bayern don’t get a free run.
 

Semmy

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Unless we think Werner is good enough to displace any of our current front three, if we are going to drop another mint in the transfer market we should be be looking towards the formation first. 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1?

If we transition towards the latter I could see Bobby dropping into the #10 and a guy like Werner to push high and fast with the wingers.

But if we stick with the 4-3-3 I feel we need to keep Bobby in the #9 and get a true playmaker into that attacking midfield role to compete with Keita. Really do feel Ox will be better suited for the #8 and Fab has the #6 locked down for the next five years.

Not sure what Klopp is going to do with Naby
 

SpecialK210

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Unless we think Werner is good enough to displace any of our current front three, if we are going to drop another mint in the transfer market we should be be looking towards the formation first. 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1?

If we transition towards the latter I could see Bobby dropping into the #10 and a guy like Werner to push high and fast with the wingers.

But if we stick with the 4-3-3 I feel we need to keep Bobby in the #9 and get a true playmaker into that attacking midfield role to compete with Keita. Really do feel Ox will be better suited for the #8 and Fab has the #6 locked down for the next five years.

Not sure what Klopp is going to do with Naby
You do realize we can strengthen more than just the starting 11? Adding starter quality players allows for more rotation and keeps everyone more fresh, which is a good thing for all.
 
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I guess the issue we may have in attracting a player like this is that everybody knows how important Firmino is to us as the 9, nobody realistically available to us displaces him right now. Werner could be used wide but his best position imo is central.

What I think is more likely is us going for young wide forwards similar to Mané and Salah, the likes of Pulisic, Brandt or Bailey. They all end up rotating and the two we currently have are used as the central option when Firmino isn’t playing.
Firmino is good but he is not a natural striker or center forward and the facts are Firmino would not even have that role if Sturridge was any good still. We need a far more clinical finisher than Firmino upfront and firmino is far better as a number 10 or AM anyway purely because even as a CF he comes far deeper for the ball than most who play that role do. Likes of Brandt or Bailey are good players but are not going to come to us and play 2nd fiddle to Mane and Salah. We also have Wilson coming back anyway who is an option on either wing anyway. Shaqiri and Ox also play that role well if needed and even Trent can be pushed forward if needed also. Strikers are where we need to start looking and as good as Firmino is at pressing and interlinking others he is not a prolific finisher proof being Salah scores more from wide positions than he does as our main attacker. Firmino is too good to lose out of the squad but he is not a good enough striker to be relied upon if we want to improve our attacking prowess. He is far more capable of lifting the midfield goal tally from a AM type role tho aslong as the right striker is bought who improves on the goal return we have had from Firmino.
 

GaryBarlow99

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Unless we think Werner is good enough to displace any of our current front three, if we are going to drop another mint in the transfer market we should be be looking towards the formation first. 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1?

If we transition towards the latter I could see Bobby dropping into the #10 and a guy like Werner to push high and fast with the wingers.

But if we stick with the 4-3-3 I feel we need to keep Bobby in the #9 and get a true playmaker into that attacking midfield role to compete with Keita. Really do feel Ox will be better suited for the #8 and Fab has the #6 locked down for the next five years.

Not sure what Klopp is going to do with Naby
We wanted Fekir last year and we need to replace Ings, Sturridge and Origi in the summer so we will most likely be getting a forward and an attacking midfielder.
 
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Unless we think Werner is good enough to displace any of our current front three, if we are going to drop another mint in the transfer market we should be be looking towards the formation first. 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1?

If we transition towards the latter I could see Bobby dropping into the #10 and a guy like Werner to push high and fast with the wingers.

But if we stick with the 4-3-3 I feel we need to keep Bobby in the #9 and get a true playmaker into that attacking midfield role to compete with Keita. Really do feel Ox will be better suited for the #8 and Fab has the #6 locked down for the next five years.

Not sure what Klopp is going to do with Naby
We need both those options improved upon for the simple reason we currently have Sturridge and Origi as forward options and Lallana and an ageing Milner as box to box types. Milner is still capable but looks leggy and Lallana is nowhere near the player he once was. Rabiot in Milner out is the ideal scenario as get him on a free same as did Milner and won't be that different wage wise either and we get a 23yr old with improvement in him for a 33yr old. Teilemens or someone like that is ideal replacement for Lallana he is very creative and always looking to push forward much like Ox does. Firmino is far better for us as a number 10 behind a striker than being the main attacking point. Naby if comes good and much like Rabiot also can do a lot of midfield roles which is why they are good options to have as long as we have a more defensive midfielder pivoting with them.
 

big noyd

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think we might still have a chance here because leipzig doesn't want to sell to bayern

and i strongly disagree with those who don't think adding another option for the front 3 (or 4) should be a priority. origi and sturridge just aren't at our level, and brewster is going to be 19 and coming off a major injury
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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Strikers are where we need to start looking and as good as Firmino is at pressing and interlinking others he is not a prolific finisher proof being Salah scores more from wide positions than he does as our main attacker.
Wait a minute are you really saying the proof Firmino isn't prolific enough is that Salah outscored him? Salah who just matched or outscored every striker to ever play in the premier league? You've got fucking high standards/demands! Just so you know Firmino is listed as playing 44 out of his 54 games at CF last season and scored 25 whilst laying on another 17. If that's not good enough from a CF then I don't know what is. This season he's been more disappointing but I think one reason for that is all the chopping and changing from CF to AM and back again without any consistency.
 
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Wait a minute are you really saying the proof Firmino isn't prolific enough is that Salah outscored him? Salah who just matched or outscored every striker to ever play in the premier league? You've got fucking high standards/demands! Just so you know Firmino is listed as playing 44 out of his 54 games at CF last season and scored 25 whilst laying on another 17. If that's not good enough from a CF then I don't know what is. This season he's been more disappointing but I think one reason for that is all the chopping and changing from CF to AM and back again without any consistency.
Last season he did not play that role the way he has this season tho he played a false 9 role most of the season. This season he has been less dangerous in the final third due to coming too deep for a CF again more proof he is an ideal number 10 and AM option when needed. I hate it when players get their roles changed because of a lack of options in the squad and then it becomes like they were always that position. He was bought as an AM type that played and created behind the attackers yes he is so good he can do numerous roles but so can Mane and Salah but they still have their best positions which we know brings the best out of them. Firmino is a number 10 or AM not a number 9. You play him behind a striker like Werner and watch how dangerous we become.
 

Koon

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Last season he did not play that role the way he has this season tho he played a false 9 role most of the season. This season he has been less dangerous in the final third due to coming too deep for a CF again more proof he is an ideal number 10 and AM option when needed. I hate it when players get their roles changed because of a lack of options in the squad and then it becomes like they were always that position. He was bought as an AM type that played and created behind the attackers yes he is so good he can do numerous roles but so can Mane and Salah but they still have their best positions which we know brings the best out of them. Firmino is a number 10 or AM not a number 9. You play him behind a striker like Werner and watch how dangerous we become.
The best football Firmino has played in his life was as a false 9, last season. I don't understand why you are saying he is a better AM. He was simply amazing last season and in 4-3-3 he has been playing the same way (when we play 4-3-3). The main difference this season is that Salah is much more watched and we don't have a playmaker in our midfield (we used to have Coutinho playing world class football).

It's funny you saying he comes too deep because the only moments when he is waaaaay too deep is when he plays as 10 in 4-2-3-1.

Also, Firmino imo is a space creator, not a playmaker. He doesn't have that big vision and passing skills like KDB, Silva, Ozil, etc., but he is amazing creating space with his sharp movement and one-twos. When you place him at the number 10 position, he becomes way too predictable.
 
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The best football Firmino has played in his life was as a false 9, last season. I don't understand why you are saying he is a better AM. He was simply amazing last season and in 4-3-3 he has been playing the same way (when we play 4-3-3). The main difference this season is that Salah is much more watched and we don't have a playmaker in our midfield (we used to have Coutinho playing world class football).

It's funny you saying he comes too deep because the only moments when he is waaaaay too deep is when he plays as 10 in 4-2-3-1.

Also, Firmino imo is a space creator, not a playmaker. He doesn't have that big vision and passing skills like KDB, Silva, Ozil, etc., but he is amazing creating space with his sharp movement and one-twos. When you place him at the number 10 position, he becomes way too predictable.
If the false 9.was so good and prolific why has Klopp changed his role then? And you do realise a false 9 is actually a variation on the Attacking midfield role that is deeper laying than a CF or striker would do their work.Your clouded if you think Firmino can not do the 10 or AM better. Big difference currently is we either have Sturridge or Origi to play in front of him if use him as a 10 or AM and both are not good enough as strikers which is why they should be going and why we need better obviously. This also is a reason Firmino has not been as good in a 10 role as he could be. You can say what you like but we need strikers to replace Sturridge and Origi and if we get quality then we need to find a way to be able to play one and Firmino.