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Timo Werner (CF) RB Leipzig

What will Werner be leaning on?

  • The Wall of Champions, pointing at the newly installed 6

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Nabil Fekir's knee

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A bog standard table, with a bog standard pen, and a sheet of random paper

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Champions League trophy for some weird reason

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sadio's jockstrap

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • The railing at Melwood

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ralf Rangnick's animosity

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • A giant can of Red Bull, cos he's not coming

    Votes: 8 66.7%

  • Total voters
    12

JustHitMyHead

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Given that, why does Werner not have any dribbles? Is he playing as a poacher for Leipzig? I watched the replay of their game against Bayern and to be honest I don't remember noticing him too much.

But he's one of the highest goals and xG young players (23 and younger) in Europe, along with (non-Mbappe division) Piatek, Jovic, M Dembele, Martial and above...well everyone else, including Havertz and Sancho. His goals/90 production rivals Mane and Salah (albeit in a weaker league, of course). But Jovic has as many completed dribbles and a better success rate.

I had kind of written off Jovic as too much of a poacher to fit, not enough buildup involvement. But Werner doesn't seem too much better. But he's very fast, obviously, which leaves me confused.
Jovic can play on the wings or deeper... it just doesn't make the most of his set of skills. Occasionally him and Rebic will mix it up and he'll be on the right.... and he has a decent cross (there was a nice one against Shaktar).

However, given he is extremely lethal in the box, and doesn't often score from outside, it is probably a tactical decision to have him as close to the net as possible. Thus, you won't see him heavily involved in the build-up despite his ability to dribble and pick out a pass. That isn't to say that he can't... he is just disproportionally good in the box.

Otherwise Jovic is quite well-rounded: decent dribbling, ok speed, good first-touch, some strength but absolutely lethal in the box. We have Ox and Wilson... and the rest of our forwards are very versatile too. I just don't see why we couldn't support a top player playing in his favourite position most of the time.

No he isn't a replica of Mane and Salah... even other top players aren't and have their own characteristics. But he'll score bucket loads from the service of Robertson and TAA though, and will likely help us against teams that park the bus.

On Werner, provided he works hard and his attitude is right, I think he'll be a success. I don't think he is quite as good as Jovic but heck Klopp can even get Origi firing at a decent clip. And Werner is a different level to start with, so I'd be excited to see him. Would still prefer Jovic though.
 


SadiosMio

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May 14, 2019
Messages
272
Jovic can play on the wings or deeper... it just doesn't make the most of his set of skills. Occasionally him and Rebic will mix it up and he'll be on the right.... and he has a decent cross (there was a nice one against Shaktar).

However, given he is extremely lethal in the box, and doesn't often score from outside, it is probably a tactical decision to have him as close to the net as possible. Thus, you won't see him heavily involved in the build-up despite his ability to dribble and pick out a pass. That isn't to say that he can't... he is just disproportionally good in the box.

Otherwise Jovic is quite well-rounded: decent dribbling, ok speed, good first-touch, some strength but absolutely lethal in the box. We have Ox and Wilson... and the rest of our forwards are very versatile too. I just don't see why we couldn't support a top player playing in his favourite position most of the time.

No he isn't a replica of Mane and Salah... even other top players aren't and have their own characteristics. But he'll score bucket loads from the service of Robertson and TAA though, and will likely help us against teams that park the bus.

On Werner, provided he works hard and his attitude is right, I think he'll be a success. I don't think he is quite as good as Jovic but heck Klopp can even get Origi firing at a decent clip. And Werner is a different level to start with, so I'd be excited to see him. Would still prefer Jovic though.
Nothing but outstanding to elite pace is going to be good enough on the wings for Klopp. Jovic definitely not it. Jovic couldn't play Firmino's role either, not even close. Just not a fit unless you create a new role for him which I don't see happening. You'd rather put Salah or Mane as a pure #9 if you went to that.
 

JustHitMyHead

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Nothing but outstanding to elite pace is going to be good enough on the wings for Klopp. Jovic definitely not it. Jovic couldn't play Firmino's role either, not even close. Just not a fit unless you create a new role for him which I don't see happening. You'd rather put Salah or Mane as a pure #9 if you went to that.
I'm going to disagree heavily on that but I doubt we'll ever agree as there are multiple ways to improve a team. But for me there is almost no way I would prefer Salah or Mane as a pure #9 unless you had someone of similar calibre to replace them on the wing. And to me, that isn't Werner or most of the players linked. I don't think we have been linked to anyone of that level of quality on the wings and thus I think a new role would have to be created if we want to improve. Lewandowski and Ciro Immobile... Klopp has bought CFs who are less flexible before.

Similarly, if we were to repeat the status quo... in the games we drew Salah, Mane and Firmino were available so I'm not sure how much we could improve too much on next season against teams that park the bus. It might be that having Ox back in the midfield and a more settled side helps, I don't know. What I think we need to beat the low block, is someone who is prolific and make use of any small space to score and that to me is Jovic.

Minutes per Goal Jovic (122) beats Mane (162), Salah (164) and Firmino (209) by a fair margin.

Let's say the options are Jovic, Werner or Pepe. If Firmino were out, I think to me the choices would be Jovic up top or one of Mane or Salah with Pepe on the wing. If Mane were out, I think my choice would be Firmino on the left and Jovic up top (Pepe really excels on the right). If Salah were out, Pepe might get the nod. In a game off the bench against someone parking the bus... Jovic all the way. Werner isn't a bad option at all, but under every scenario I can't see him being first choice.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
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When we signed Mane and Salah, I don't recall many fans proclaiming they were amazing. It was all potential...same as with Werner now.

If the club see his potential as something Klopp can maximise, and we do sign him, I wont be singing from the rooftops, but will be excited at the potential.

Doubt hes signing anyway.
I was a bit disappointed with the Mane signing, as in ‘Really? Southampton again?’

Then I was disappointed in the Salah signing because he plays where Mane played.

You’d think I’d have learned by now.
 



*** suso ***

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I'm going to disagree heavily on that but I doubt we'll ever agree as there are multiple ways to improve a team. But for me there is almost no way I would prefer Salah or Mane as a pure #9 unless you had someone of similar calibre to replace them on the wing. And to me, that isn't Werner or most of the players linked. I don't think we have been linked to anyone of that level of quality on the wings and thus I think a new role would have to be created if we want to improve. Lewandowski and Ciro Immobile... Klopp has bought CFs who are less flexible before.

Similarly, if we were to repeat the status quo... in the games we drew Salah, Mane and Firmino were available so I'm not sure how much we could improve too much on next season against teams that park the bus. It might be that having Ox back in the midfield and a more settled side helps, I don't know. What I think we need to beat the low block, is someone who is prolific and make use of any small space to score and that to me is Jovic.

Minutes per Goal Jovic (122) beats Mane (162), Salah (164) and Firmino (209) by a fair margin.

Let's say the options are Jovic, Werner or Pepe. If Firmino were out, I think to me the choices would be Jovic up top or one of Mane or Salah with Pepe on the wing. If Mane were out, I think my choice would be Firmino on the left and Jovic up top (Pepe really excels on the right). If Salah were out, Pepe might get the nod. In a game off the bench against someone parking the bus... Jovic all the way. Werner isn't a bad option at all, but under every scenario I can't see him being first choice.
If i could choose one player in this window it would have to be jovic. I think he will go on to be the best striker in the world. would love to have him here.

PLEASE PLEASE klopp make it happen. The last time i wanted a player this badly was sanchez from barca
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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If i could choose one player in this window it would have to be jovic. I think he will go on to be the best striker in the world. would love to have him here.

PLEASE PLEASE klopp make it happen. The last time i wanted a player this badly was sanchez from barca
Yeah the fact you chose Suso as your forum name doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in your judgement of players hehehe
 

SadiosMio

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Messages
272
I'm going to disagree heavily on that but I doubt we'll ever agree as there are multiple ways to improve a team. But for me there is almost no way I would prefer Salah or Mane as a pure #9 unless you had someone of similar calibre to replace them on the wing. And to me, that isn't Werner or most of the players linked. I don't think we have been linked to anyone of that level of quality on the wings and thus I think a new role would have to be created if we want to improve. Lewandowski and Ciro Immobile... Klopp has bought CFs who are less flexible before.

Similarly, if we were to repeat the status quo... in the games we drew Salah, Mane and Firmino were available so I'm not sure how much we could improve too much on next season against teams that park the bus. It might be that having Ox back in the midfield and a more settled side helps, I don't know. What I think we need to beat the low block, is someone who is prolific and make use of any small space to score and that to me is Jovic.

Minutes per Goal Jovic (122) beats Mane (162), Salah (164) and Firmino (209) by a fair margin.

Let's say the options are Jovic, Werner or Pepe. If Firmino were out, I think to me the choices would be Jovic up top or one of Mane or Salah with Pepe on the wing. If Mane were out, I think my choice would be Firmino on the left and Jovic up top (Pepe really excels on the right). If Salah were out, Pepe might get the nod. In a game off the bench against someone parking the bus... Jovic all the way. Werner isn't a bad option at all, but under every scenario I can't see him being first choice.
OK I'll play.

This is all from understat.

(WARNING: numbers about to happen. Charts too, hopefully. If you're not a numbers guy, please exit now. Thank you for flying SaDiosMio.)

CF minutes only except Mane and Pepe
PlayerxG/90
Werner (2197 min).64 (.57 G/90 on 4.06 shots/90)
Salah (1177 min).80 (.99 G/90 on 2.91 shots/90)
Mane.49 (.64 G/90 on 2.53 shots/90)
Jovic (2019 min).70 (.71 G/90 on 4.06 shots/90)
Pepe.57 (.59 G/90 on 3.19 shots/90)

Salah clearly the best prospective #9 of the bunch (we're assuming Firmino isn't a #9 anymore in this, so no need to look at his numbers in a much different version of a CF role).

Salah as a non-CF last year was of course out of this world. .77xG/.97 G/90. This year, not so much. .49 xG/.38 G/90. Which is more the norm going forward probably goes a long way toward determining what Salah's best use actually is -- as a winger, or a CF. His career xG as a CF (in more than 2500 min) is .96! He would very likely be an outstanding #9.

CF only minutes:



So for me, in looking for an addition to the attack, you're looking both at someone that can both start in place of Salah or Mane, but also someone that can start on a wing if Salah plays CF -- whether that's LW or RW doesn't really matter, since Mane is good on either side (.44 xG/.54 G/90 on right, .48 xG/.54 G/90 on right).

Is there any way we could get Martial or Sane (answer: no)? they're both top 10 in NPG/gm as a winger/wide forward. Ayoze Perez might be a cheeky bid target at .31 xG/.53 G/90 in 1900 wide minutes.


This also might be the reason for the Maxwel Cornet (.52 xG/.51 G/90 in 1200 wide min) hornblowing, legit or not.
 
Last edited:

Lynch04

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I was a bit disappointed with the Mane signing, as in ‘Really? Southampton again?’

Then I was disappointed in the Salah signing because he plays where Mane played.

You’d think I’d have learned by now.
I agree slightly. Iv posted before that Mane completely went under my radar. I remember him scoring a hat-trick against Utd and being constantly linked with them. However, watching his Youtube clip (i know) upon signing him, i had a strong feeling he would be good. Thankfully he has and thankfully he is no where near his ceiling. I wont speculate as i dont want to put a curse on him.
 



SadiosMio

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I was a bit disappointed with the Mane signing, as in ‘Really? Southampton again?’

Then I was disappointed in the Salah signing because he plays where Mane played.

You’d think I’d have learned by now.
Mane's numbers were also dragged down by being played as a #10 (or something) in a poor system which helped Liverpool get him cheaper. Maxwel Cornet would be an even deeper dive for a similar type wide player. This is counting all goals, including penalties, which we know Pepe had a lot of.

 
Last edited:

JustHitMyHead

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Jovic has signed for Real lads he's not an option anymore.
Newspapers out of Spain have claimed multiple times in the past that it was done, and it has been denied multiple time by Eintracht Frankfurt.

Jovic a couple days ago was also quoted as saying,

“From my experience in the Europa League, I would say that some other leagues in Europe are more suited to me and my way of playing football,” he told German newspaper Welt am Sonntag.
“In terms of the physique, the Bundesliga is very demanding, but after the games against Chelsea or Inter Milan, I personally had the feeling that I could feel even better [playing] in the Premier League or Serie A.
“The way the teams play there suits me better.
“I’m looking forward to seeing my level compared to the best players in the world. One thing is clear: I want to succeed in my career.”


Considering the quality of the Spanish newspapers, it might be done, but from his side it doesn't sound done at all.
 

Speckydodge

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Newspapers out of Spain have claimed multiple times in the past that it was done, and it has been denied multiple time by Eintracht Frankfurt.

Jovic a couple days ago was also quoted as saying,

“From my experience in the Europa League, I would say that some other leagues in Europe are more suited to me and my way of playing football,” he told German newspaper Welt am Sonntag.
“In terms of the physique, the Bundesliga is very demanding, but after the games against Chelsea or Inter Milan, I personally had the feeling that I could feel even better [playing] in the Premier League or Serie A.
“The way the teams play there suits me better.
“I’m looking forward to seeing my level compared to the best players in the world. One thing is clear: I want to succeed in my career.”


Considering the quality of the Spanish newspapers, it might be done, but from his side it doesn't sound done at all.

Fair enough , I thought Real had announced it already.
Jesus you've just given me hope now, he's a super player.
 

Red over the water

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Thanks for the graphs above on Cornet. He might be a great option for us, both with the qualities he brings, and also being a bit under the radar - at least, as much as is possible these days. Could be a reasonable price,
 

SadiosMio

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Thanks for the graphs above on Cornet. He might be a great option for us, both with the qualities he brings, and also being a bit under the radar - at least, as much as is possible these days. Could be a reasonable price,
Recently reminded of what a handful he was for City as well in CL. Both group stage games he gave them a lot of problems. Scored 3 goals I think, could have had more, constant threat down the right. Worth looking up on youtube.
 



Drubas

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I'm wondering if Sane -> Bayern would = Werner -> uh...not Bayern. Or is Werner seen as a striker, in which case good luck getting past Mr. Lewandowski.
Bayern will need both Sane and Werner, with Robben and Ribery gone. And Lewa isn't getting any younger.
 

SadiosMio

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Bayern will need both Sane and Werner, with Robben and Ribery gone. And Lewa isn't getting any younger.
But they have Coman and Gnabry already.

I don't think they're spending 120M on wingers this summer. They've already committed 100M+ on defenders.
 

redfanman

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But they have Coman and Gnabry already.

I don't think they're spending 120M on wingers this summer. They've already committed 100M+ on defenders.
They don't need to. They can get Werner free next year.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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Same, I've formally retired from any transfer musings while Klopp and Edwards are at the club.

I know f all

im still waiting for us to set our sights higher that a keeper we smashed seven or so past in last years CL semi final....

we really need to set a marker out instead of settling....
 



rupzzz

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SSN Transfer Centre update;

Bayern Munich have cooled their interest in RB Leipzig striker Timo Werner but will continue attempts to sign Manchester City winger Leroy Sane, while they are also interested in Atletico Madrid midfielder Rodri, according to Kicker.

City have already rejected one bid for Sane while the Premier League champions are also thought to be chasing Rodri, who would cost around £70m.

So....maybe he will be playing for the Champions of Europe next season after all....

Still think he will just end up at Bayern, but it would be a nice one if we get him.

How long after the Real Madrid final did the club announce Fabinho?
 

Neukolln

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SSN Transfer Centre update;

Bayern Munich have cooled their interest in RB Leipzig striker Timo Werner but will continue attempts to sign Manchester City winger Leroy Sane, while they are also interested in Atletico Madrid midfielder Rodri, according to Kicker.

City have already rejected one bid for Sane while the Premier League champions are also thought to be chasing Rodri, who would cost around £70m.
Uli Hoeness is stomping his feet around today bc City rejected their initial bid for Sane. He is calling City's demands "insane" and that they're being "priced out". Which, is sort of richly ironic coming from him.
 

Red over the water

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I can’t think why Man City would want to sell Sané as I think he is a cracking player. Agree that Bayern can’t moan about the price - pay what they want or move on, and if he’s still available as he contract winds down you might have more room to bargain.
 

CymruRed

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I can’t think why Man City would want to sell Sané as I think he is a cracking player. Agree that Bayern can’t moan about the price - pay what they want or move on, and if he’s still available as he contract winds down you might have more room to bargain.

Sorry to take this thread off topic a little,i think its Sane pushing for the move or using the situation to get better terms,from what i gather,he wants game time and more first team starts and City have been negotiating a new contract over the last 18 months (as he has 1 year left now) but he won't sign the contract (yet).
 



NJLFCJake

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Newspapers out of Spain have claimed multiple times in the past that it was done, and it has been denied multiple time by Eintracht Frankfurt.

Jovic a couple days ago was also quoted as saying,

“From my experience in the Europa League, I would say that some other leagues in Europe are more suited to me and my way of playing football,” he told German newspaper Welt am Sonntag.
“In terms of the physique, the Bundesliga is very demanding, but after the games against Chelsea or Inter Milan, I personally had the feeling that I could feel even better [playing] in the Premier League or Serie A.
“The way the teams play there suits me better.
“I’m looking forward to seeing my level compared to the best players in the world. One thing is clear: I want to succeed in my career.”


Considering the quality of the Spanish newspapers, it might be done, but from his side it doesn't sound done at all.

Frankfurt just confirmed his departure today
 

JibJab

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Bayern could afford Sane and Werner if they wanted to. They've had Robben and Ribery retire and Muller and Lewa are getting older.