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Timo Werner (CF) RB Leipzig

What will Werner be leaning on?

  • The Wall of Champions, pointing at the newly installed 6

    Votes: 14 15.9%
  • Nabil Fekir's knee

    Votes: 11 12.5%
  • A bog standard table, with a bog standard pen, and a sheet of random paper

    Votes: 8 9.1%
  • The Champions League trophy for some weird reason

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Sadio's jockstrap

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • The railing at Melwood

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Ralf Rangnick's animosity

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • A giant can of Red Bull, cos he's not coming

    Votes: 40 45.5%
  • "Brazilian shit from beaches"

    Votes: 4 4.5%

  • Total voters
    88
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nikz200

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Mikey Edwards must have watched his performance this evening.


Its very possible this is true, but i don't believe a word of it, this could easily be something either club leaked out there either to get the price up or to get the price down. We will need to take all this news with a grain of salt, until James Pearce or someone tier 1 for Liverpool news says it, i don't think David Maddock is a primary source with 100% accuracy for this kind of thing.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Its very possible this is true, but i don't believe a word of it, this could easily be something either club leaked out there either to get the price up or to get the price down. We will need to take all this news with a grain of salt, until James Pearce or someone tier 1 for Liverpool news says it, i don't think David Maddock is a primary source with 100% accuracy for this kind of thing.
In all fairness we did the same thing with Roma and Alisson. Absolutely, categorically, definitely, no chance whatsoever we could dream of coming anywhere near their asking price. And besides Ward/Karius was there to give a go at our number 1 GK position for a season we were more than happy to go without. Roma dropped their asking price by 10-20 million and we completed the deal for what was still a record breaking deal for a GK, significantly higher than any previous deal. I always take the "we can't he's too expensive" stories with a pinch of salt. We are a very well run club that operates well within its needs with very few footballing needs to dip into the transfer market for. However, in general, I can imagine us holding fire on any deal for players this summer due to the Coronavirus impact and that includes Werner.
 

Rooster

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Well I reckon there is some truth to this price reduction rumour. This evil little lurking virus is shit scaring clubs in opening the wallets.
 

Nikola

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They took Liverpool to cleaners with Keita's fee, so it's only fair to give something back through Werner deal. Besides, Klopp's Bundesliga signings haven't set the world on fire so far, they have been inconsistent at best, mostly due to injuries (Keita and Matip). Grujić for Werner, straight swap if you ask me, everybody's happy.
 

gasband

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This is the strength of our club right now, not just because we are on a high in terms of results but we have a great scouting team and coaching team, meaning we don't have to buy the flavour of the week if it does not suit us. While Werner has a great track record and seem eager to join us and tick alot of boxes, we know with the current situation, financial prudence is important and we will always have options because we don't always need to buy superstars, we make superstars. I think there will be other clubs more desperate and will stump up the cash even if they are half a billion in debt.
 

KillerBeeLFC

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But you'd still need that space creating. So that still relies on a false 9. If Werner is central there are no spaces for Salah and Mane to drift and move into to exploit. As I've said all along if Werner is a reasonable option to play in the same way as Salah and Mane then great. Lots seem to disagree with that though and from many descriptions it seems we would get a similar playing style as Origi just better at scoring (hopefully). I don't actually think the problem with Origi is his quality or goal return but his suitability in terms of style. So that's why I have some reservations on Werner.
Mate, he can play the false 9. Not sure how many times you need to repeat the same thing after being told its false. Theres not even a debate with you, you just ignore any evidence an repeat the same thing over and over ha
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Mate, he can play the false 9. Not sure how many times you need to repeat the same thing after being told its false. Theres not even a debate with you, you just ignore any evidence an repeat the same thing over and over ha
Some people say he can but no explanation as to how. People who describe his playing style (exploitation of space and such) sounds more like he could play in the way Salah and Mane do. Its not about where on the pitch you can place him its about how he would actually do that job of that role.
 

KillerBeeLFC

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Some people say he can but no explanation as to how. People who describe his playing style (exploitation of space and such) sounds more like he could play in the way Salah and Mane do. Its not about where on the pitch you can place him its about how he would actually do that job of that role.
Hes playing a very similar role now and has all the attributes needed. He drops deep to receive the ball, sets people up, presses, is athletic and knows how to finish. Just because he is fast, it does not mean he has to be a vardy type, your putting him in a box yourself and basing your perceptions around that. You say he cant do this or that but dont back it up at all with any facts, examples of play or stats whereas all these have been presented which oppose your view. WHY do you feel he cant play the role? You dont explain
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Hes playing a very similar role now and has all the attributes needed. He drops deep to receive the ball, sets people up, presses, is athletic and knows how to finish. Just because he is fast, it does not mean he has to be a vardy type, your putting him in a box yourself and basing your perceptions around that. You say he cant do this or that but dont back it up at all with any facts, examples of play or stats whereas all these have been presented which oppose your view. WHY do you feel he cant play the role? You dont explain
If you really think he plays anything remotely like how Firmino plays we will have to agree to disagree. I've admitted from the start I'm not an expert on the player but even I've seen enough to know there is nothing Firmino like in his game in my opinion. As people better placed than me have described he needs space to operate. Our false 9 specific job is the opposite to draw opposition in and hassle and bring chaos (well chaos to them control by him) which creates the space, opportunities and openings for others to exploit. Werner is the goal mad, hungry, exploiter of the space created by others. His role is the scorer. That may make him a great fit for what we actually need as a wide forward but not at false 9 (which we definitely don't need anyway with Firmino being world class and Mane and Minamino both being good options too).
 

PaulRoJo

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Apparently we will lose 30m from sky this season with the next deal likely to also be lower. Going to need to be some significant belt tightening all round in football - hopefully agents bear the brunt.
 

KillerBeeLFC

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If you really think he plays anything remotely like how Firmino plays we will have to agree to disagree. I've admitted from the start I'm not an expert on the player but even I've seen enough to know there is nothing Firmino like in his game in my opinion. As people better placed than me have described he needs space to operate. Our false 9 specific job is the opposite to draw opposition in and hassle and bring chaos (well chaos to them control by him) which creates the space, opportunities and openings for others to exploit. Werner is the goal mad, hungry, exploiter of the space created by others. His role is the scorer. That may make him a great fit for what we actually need as a wide forward but not at false 9 (which we definitely don't need anyway with Firmino being world class and Mane and Minamino both being good options too).
You just keep repeating ill informed information as if its fact mate. Your basis is from peoples opinion, but theres also a lot of people saying the complete opposite with evidence to back it up. Why choose to ignore that side? No player is a carbon copy of another player. The tools are there for him to succeed in any role up front for us. What do you say to all the evidence and opinions that he has the ability to adapt to our system as well thrive in it? Please dont repeat how we play or anything like that again. Im asking for evidence that he cannot adapt. For example, average position on pitch, what runs he makes in which situations etc, Your being told he drops deep and plays a deeper role than a pure striker at the moment and the facts back this up. Everything points to him being a good fit but youve based such strong opinions and are relaying these opinions as facts, which other people reading will take at face value. The way you describe him as "goal mad" makes it sound like he will shoot from anywhere, like Defoe used to for example, which is just not the case. If youre admitting you havent seen much of him, why have such strong opinions against him? Only reason I can think of is you want the shinier toy. Thats fine, just no need to find or make up weaknesses in our other targets if you dont know much about the player
 

Koon

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Not a fan. Don't get me wrong, he is a good player but I think he is just decent/average. He has a really good and explosive speed, he can press but that's essentially it.

He can't play RW. He is not a good LW at all. Even though he has been good in terms of assists/key passes for the past two seasons, his pass is average at best (it really annoys me how sometimes he fails to make an easy pass). He misses a lot of goals (not this season from what I've seen). Not very gifted technically. Struggles in tight spaces. Can't play if he doesn't have any space to run. Not a very creative player. He is very raw.

If we were playing 4-2-3-1 with Salah upfront most of the season, he could become a pretty good backup, but in the 4-3-3 he will become very limited. We would have to change a lot our play style. We can only get the best out of him if he makes runs in the space and that will kill Salah and Mané because they won't have space. That's why Bobby is such a key player for us and that's why Klopp brought Minamino. Both are technically gifted players who are very used to play between spaces and are very smart when it comes to create space for the wingers/strikers.

I also don't think he can rotate like people say because he is not good in the wings and can only play upfront (either with Polsen in the past 4-2-2-2 or alone in 4-2-3-1). If we were to change to 4-2-3-1, I'd bet all my money that Klopp will never use Salah in the wing. Salah is Liverpool's poacher even though he plays in the wing. And for that to happen, we must either have 3 midfielders (4-3-3) or allow Salah to play a free role as a striker in 4-2-3-1.

I'd bring Werner only for something like £30m, nothing more. I think we could do so much better with another winger. Someone who's actually able to play both wings and bring real quality and speed. For me, having Firmino, Salah and Minamino all able to play upfront is more than enough, but I still think we are short in the wings. Shaqiri is not good enough, Ox can't perform very well there and Origi is a legend but we need more.

I hope I don't look like a Werner hater, it's not like that. Let's just say that if I were to chose between Haaland or Sancho for Liverpool, I wouldn't think twice about Sancho. We need a Sancho type of player, we already have a world class poacher in Salah.
 

KillerBeeLFC

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Not a fan. Don't get me wrong, he is a good player but I think he is just decent/average. He has a really good and explosive speed, he can press but that's essentially it.

He can't play RW. He is not a good LW at all. Even though he has been good in terms of assists/key passes for the past two seasons, his pass is average at best (it really annoys me how sometimes he fails to make an easy pass). He misses a lot of goals (not this season from what I've seen). Not very gifted technically. Struggles in tight spaces. Can't play if he doesn't have any space to run. Not a very creative player. He is very raw.

If we were playing 4-2-3-1 with Salah upfront most of the season, he could become a pretty good backup, but in the 4-3-3 he will become very limited. We would have to change a lot our play style. We can only get the best out of him if he makes runs in the space and that will kill Salah and Mané because they won't have space. That's why Bobby is such a key player for us and that's why Klopp brought Minamino. Both are technically gifted players who are very used to play between spaces and are very smart when it comes to create space for the wingers/strikers.

I also don't think he can rotate like people say because he is not good in the wings and can only play upfront (either with Polsen in the past 4-2-2-2 or alone in 4-2-3-1). If we were to change to 4-2-3-1, I'd bet all my money that Klopp will never use Salah in the wing. Salah is Liverpool's poacher even though he plays in the wing. And for that to happen, we must either have 3 midfielders (4-3-3) or allow Salah to play a free role as a striker in 4-2-3-1.

I'd bring Werner only for something like £30m, nothing more. I think we could do so much better with another winger. Someone who's actually able to play both wings and bring real quality and speed. For me, having Firmino, Salah and Minamino all able to play upfront is more than enough, but I still think we are short in the wings. Shaqiri is not good enough, Ox can't perform very well there and Origi is a legend but we need more.

I hope I don't look like a Werner hater, it's not like that. Let's just say that if I were to chose between Haaland or Sancho for Liverpool, I wouldn't think twice about Sancho. We need a Sancho type of player, we already have a world class poacher in Salah.
This is a much better response than just saying he cant do it, least your explaining why you think that.

You say he is just fast and presses but that kind of disregards the fact hes among the europes elite in terms of chances created, forward passes etc.

In regards to him not being good in more than one position, his manager and previous coaches have said the opposite, I would lean more to agree with them.

He misses a lot of goals but still putting out high numbers and is outperforming his expected goals. That means he scores more than he should from situations where other players would be unlikely to do so. All players miss what look like easy chances, even Salah in his first season when he broke the record missed a bag load of easy chances.

I actually think hes alright technically even if he hasnt got the flair. Hes a German international and not many of those are bad technically.

Why can we only get the best of him if he runs in behind? Its ok to have pace in the locker and not use it all the time.

Most of the evidence points to him being able to do what we need. Youre saying about sancho but he doesnt play the same way as our wingers so why would that be ok but for werner he would have to be a carbon copy of our existing players? Id like sancho here too btw but unless mane or salah go, it just isnt happening
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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You just keep repeating ill informed information as if its fact mate. Your basis is from peoples opinion, but theres also a lot of people saying the complete opposite with evidence to back it up. Why choose to ignore that side? No player is a carbon copy of another player. The tools are there for him to succeed in any role up front for us. What do you say to all the evidence and opinions that he has the ability to adapt to our system as well thrive in it? Please dont repeat how we play or anything like that again. Im asking for evidence that he cannot adapt. For example, average position on pitch, what runs he makes in which situations etc, Your being told he drops deep and plays a deeper role than a pure striker at the moment and the facts back this up. Everything points to him being a good fit but youve based such strong opinions and are relaying these opinions as facts, which other people reading will take at face value. The way you describe him as "goal mad" makes it sound like he will shoot from anywhere, like Defoe used to for example, which is just not the case. If youre admitting you havent seen much of him, why have such strong opinions against him? Only reason I can think of is you want the shinier toy. Thats fine, just no need to find or make up weaknesses in our other targets if you dont know much about the player
@Koon put a really good detailed post up about why, although he plays some positions, his style in those positions could maybe be a bad match for us, I'm on the fence on this.

I feel like my uncertainty is being misconstrued and taking over this thread and a lot seem to be irrate that I'm uncertain so will try and limit myself to a few simple responses;

1. We don't need a false 9. We have the best in the business in Firmino, a good back up in Mane and a real promising signing in Minamino before we even look at academy graduates who could yet find themselves a good option in that role.

2. Being a false 9 is not simply about where you play and dropping deep anyway. Werner seems the typical supporting striker, quite possibly a potential world class one, that does not mean he can be an effective false 9. Almost the opposite as a false 9s main functions are about helping others to score why would you choose a player whose main strength is his scoring to play there?

3. I've never seen anyone apart from you claim he can play as a false 9.

4. I'm open to the idea he can adapt to our system and thrive, as a wide forward competing/covering Mane and Salah. It seems the role he is best suited to on a superficial look at things but he'd have to radically change as a player to adapt to any other role in our main 433 system.

5. I'm 50/50 on whether he can bring what we need. There is a huge difference between a natural winger with goal scoring ability being pushed further up the pitch and given a free run at goalscoring due to the use of a great false 9 (Salah and Mane) than a versatile forward being pushed out wide (Origi and Vardy style). I'm not convinced one way or the other what he can achieve but many seem adamant that he's a versatile forward not a natural goal scoring winger so that sets alarm bells ringing for me.

6. His manager or former manager was the one who said he'd never come across a more ruthless to score player.

7. I'm not interested in the shinier toy. I've said I don't think we should pay big money this summer full stop. I've even suggested creative alternatives to plug a gap if need be such as a cheap deal for someone like Promes or an interesting reclamation project of loaning Dembele from Barca with an option to buy to see if Klopp and the medical team can rescue his potential before its lost forever.
 

Not Worthy

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Anyone else getting a tad bored with this on/off/who the f**k knows rumour now?
It's the affect of the football vacuum.

Personally, in the few games I've bothered to take specific notice of Werner, I'm not convinced nor excited at the prospect of us spending big on him. However, I'm also in the camp where, if the recruitment team rate him, I'll trust that.
 

Drubas

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But you'd still need that space creating. So that still relies on a false 9. If Werner is central there are no spaces for Salah and Mane to drift and move into to exploit. As I've said all along if Werner is a reasonable option to play in the same way as Salah and Mane then great. Lots seem to disagree with that though and from many descriptions it seems we would get a similar playing style as Origi just better at scoring (hopefully). I don't actually think the problem with Origi is his quality or goal return but his suitability in terms of style. So that's why I have some reservations on Werner.
I think his best position will be in the middle, since he can switch positions with Salah. And Firmino is not the only player in the world that can move in to pockets of space.
 

ILLOK

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Some serious underrating of Firmino going on here if anyone thinks Werner is capable of replicating what he does to anything like a similar level.


If anyone has seen Werner do this sort of stuff in tight spaces and under this much pressure from defenders then I've been watching a different player.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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I think his best position will be in the middle, since he can switch positions with Salah. And Firmino is not the only player in the world that can move in to pockets of space.
Firmino doesn't move into space. He's the player that creates the space Salah and Mane move into. As @ILLOK Points out its almost the complete opposite of what Werner does and needs to be successful. Werner needs space to operate and move into and he then scores. Firmino doesn't score as many as he is capable of because he purposefully operates without space, when he has space he draws opposition to him to get rid of that space opening up the pitch in other areas for our other players. Werner seems to have the potential to be a world class supporting striker, its a complete opposite role to a false 9 even though it occurs in the same area of the pitch. Problem is we don't use a supporting striker. He could also be a really good CF problem is we rarely use one of them and when we do Salah is a world class one. So the question is can a versatile forward play as one of our wide forwards? Its certainly possible but the players that do it well for us are goal scoring wingers pushed closer to goal and given more freedom. We have a promising young versatile forward in Origi who just doesn't do the job right already. Is Werner going to adapt to the change? Or is he going to perform like Origi but score more goals?
 

Speckydodge

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Some serious underrating of Firmino going on here if anyone thinks Werner is capable of replicating what he does to anything like a similar level.


If anyone has seen Werner do this sort of stuff in tight spaces and under this much pressure from defenders then I've been watching a different player.

I don't think anyone has said he's capable of replicating Bobby in what Bobby does, but the doesn't have to.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I don't think anyone has said he's capable of replicating Bobby in what Bobby does, but the doesn't have to.
Mate, he can play the false 9. Not sure how many times you need to repeat the same thing after being told its false. Theres not even a debate with you, you just ignore any evidence an repeat the same thing over and over ha
I think his best position will be in the middle, since he can switch positions with Salah. And Firmino is not the only player in the world that can move in to pockets of space.
 

FGred

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Some serious underrating of Firmino going on here if anyone thinks Werner is capable of replicating what he does to anything like a similar level.


If anyone has seen Werner do this sort of stuff in tight spaces and under this much pressure from defenders then I've been watching a different player.
Absolute nonsense where the hell are you going to find a player that we can afford to replace such sublime skill the only player Werner can hope to replace is one of the midfield players?
 

Speckydodge

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Difference between replacing and replicating. Nobody can replicate what Bobby does as the false 9 but that isn't the only way to play that role and position. Werner does press very well, he now drops deep and plays in team mates very well before arriving late to the box perfect for our full backs crosses imo. There's no rule to say he can't play and possibly be great with Bobby also, both have unreal movement and football intelligence.
The comparison's to Origi are very lazy too.
 
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