Timo Werner (CF) RB Leipzig

What will Werner be leaning on?

  • The Wall of Champions, pointing at the newly installed 6

    Votes: 14 15.9%
  • Nabil Fekir's knee

    Votes: 11 12.5%
  • A bog standard table, with a bog standard pen, and a sheet of random paper

    Votes: 8 9.1%
  • The Champions League trophy for some weird reason

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Sadio's jockstrap

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • The railing at Melwood

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Ralf Rangnick's animosity

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • A giant can of Red Bull, cos he's not coming

    Votes: 40 45.5%
  • "Brazilian shit from beaches"

    Votes: 4 4.5%

  • Total voters
    88
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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This is a decent video of his improvements this year and shows a lot of attacking play you could easily see from us.
Absolutely nothing in that video showed anything about how he could play central in our 433. He could play central in our 4231 but Salah is better. He can play as a CF but so far he's always seemed to thrive on space and we would definitely never get space like that if we played him as a CF. He seems a great supporting striker, dropping between the lines (with someone ahead of him), floating out into space wide to exploit, lethal finishing. But definitely would be shocked if he was ever played as a false 9 by us or anyone. Its directly at odds with what he is actually good/great at. He really could be a real superstar if he goes to the right club. Playing off Lewandowski at Bayern in 4411 or off Tammy Abrahm at Chelsea. But we don't play in those ways. Best he could do here for us would be as a wide attacker and the 1 in 4231 when Salah isn't/can't play or needs resting but we want to play that formation still. He'd be a clear upgrade on Origi but we may still have the same tactical issues with Werner as we do when Origi covers Mane. We will probably still win because the rest of the team is awesome but it won't be as fluid.
 

jgw_geneseo

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Absolute nonsense where the hell are you going to find a player that we can afford to replace such sublime skill the only player Werner can hope to replace is one of the midfield players?
I mean... midfield? Is that you Brendan?

(Sorry couldn't resist... but midfield though?)
 

FGred

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Some serious underrating of Firmino going on here if anyone thinks Werner is capable of replicating what he does to anything like a similar level.


If anyone has seen Werner do this sort of stuff in tight spaces and under this much pressure from defenders then I've been watching a different player.
Sorry @ILLOK in my post I hope you understood I was actually agreeing with you and emphasising your point.
 

Herb

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Not a fan. Don't get me wrong, he is a good player but I think he is just decent/average. He has a really good and explosive speed, he can press but that's essentially it.

He can't play RW. He is not a good LW at all. Even though he has been good in terms of assists/key passes for the past two seasons, his pass is average at best (it really annoys me how sometimes he fails to make an easy pass). He misses a lot of goals (not this season from what I've seen). Not very gifted technically. Struggles in tight spaces. Can't play if he doesn't have any space to run. Not a very creative player. He is very raw.
Think it’s pretty unfair to label him as an average player. Average players don’t churn out the numbers he has consistently over multiple seasons. Seems like you are referring to him as being average because he’s maybe considered more of a “poacher” and not as rounded as some other forwards. Players can have limited skill sets and still be at or approaching an elite level, in particular strikers. We’ve had Owen and Fowler in our recent history who both possessed great pace and finishing ability along with all the mental attributes that go with being great goal scorers (composure, positioning etc). Beyond that arguably neither of them were particularly great in any other facet of the game but we still considered them to be elite strikers.

Some of the other criticisms are a bit weak as well. His passing isn’t good despite the fact that he has impressive key passes/assist numbers. He misses a lot of chances but not this season :unsure:. All strikers miss chances, how many games this season have we had a bit of a moan at all three of our forwards for passing up on some really straightforward chances? His conversation rate this season is still better than all of our front three, better than Aguero and only slightly behind Lewandowski.

It’s probably part of a wider discussion but I find it genuinely quite interesting how football fans generally perceive forwards these days. The likes of Aguero and Lewandowski should be considered two of the great all time strikers, and yet part of me still thinks they are somewhat underrated/under appreciated because they don’t possess the all round game that prominent strikers of the same era ie Messi, Ronaldo and Suarez did at their peaks.

Finding forwards who can bang in 25+ in a season whilst having multiple other world class attributes in their game is pretty rare, we are lucky we arguably have three at the club, I can’t name many more that are attainable out there on the market right now. As I’ve said previously, there seems to be an obsession about him coming in and having to adapt his game massively to fill a role that those three currently do. Maybe Klopp just wants an out and out striker who will be even more ruthless in taking chances than what we currently have at the club and it’s that simple.
 

Red over the water

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Apparently we will lose 30m from sky this season with the next deal likely to also be lower. Going to need to be some significant belt tightening all round in football - hopefully agents bear the brunt.
The Saudis will buy the rights to the next TV deal and we will be excited at our bulging wallets again... but will loathe ourselves for it.
 

ILLOK

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So, he's extremely fast, works incredibly hard and is a great presser, great finisher, good technically, extremely intelligent, great dribbler, great passer as per his stats, can come short and be a false 9, play wide or run in behind...

Sounds almost too good to be true.
 

Nikola

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So, he's extremely fast, works incredibly hard and is a great presser, great finisher, good technically, extremely intelligent, great dribbler, great passer as per his stats, can come short and be a false 9, play wide or run in behind...

Sounds almost too good to be true.
And his club are ready to sell him for the price they named ages ago, with their media officers and (non-)playing staff often going about how he'd be a great fit for Liverpool. This is my biggest problem with this transfer, at any price - then again, I'm always suspicious of transfers.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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So, he's extremely fast, works incredibly hard and is a great presser, great finisher, good technically, extremely intelligent, great dribbler, great passer as per his stats, can come short and be a false 9, play wide or run in behind...

Sounds almost too good to be true.
More likely that he's a very good versatile forward with the potential to be a great one. Hes got an amazing scoring touch but so did Kevin Phillips. He could yet become a world class supporting striker but we don't really play with one of those. He could potentially develop into a good wide forward and give us cover and options wide with Salah and Mane but its not a guarantee he'll be a success in the role. If we sign him odds are he'll do well enough for us as the 4th in line in our attack but I wouldn't fancy his chances of displacing any of the first 3. It will narrow the gap between the first 3 and the rest though so it would be a successful transfer. I'm just not convinced its the most effective way to improve us up front.
 

Speckydodge

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Absolutely nothing in that video showed anything about how he could play central in our 433. He could play central in our 4231 but Salah is better. He can play as a CF but so far he's always seemed to thrive on space and we would definitely never get space like that if we played him as a CF. He seems a great supporting striker, dropping between the lines (with someone ahead of him), floating out into space wide to exploit, lethal finishing. But definitely would be shocked if he was ever played as a false 9 by us or anyone. Its directly at odds with what he is actually good/great at. He really could be a real superstar if he goes to the right club. Playing off Lewandowski at Bayern in 4411 or off Tammy Abrahm at Chelsea. But we don't play in those ways. Best he could do here for us would be as a wide attacker and the 1 in 4231 when Salah isn't/can't play or needs resting but we want to play that formation still. He'd be a clear upgrade on Origi but we may still have the same tactical issues with Werner as we do when Origi covers Mane. We will probably still win because the rest of the team is awesome but it won't be as fluid.

Or being fed by the most creative full backs in world football?
You say that's the best he could do for us and that we'd still have the same tactical issues as with Origi all as if it's a matter of fact when it's simply your opinion. The fact Klopp and Edwards have targeted him and Klopp even calling him personally would suggest they don't agree with you as I'm sure they only see the great options he would give us.
 

ILLOK

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And his club are ready to sell him for the price they named ages ago, with their media officers and (non-)playing staff often going about how he'd be a great fit for Liverpool. This is my biggest problem with this transfer, at any price - then again, I'm always suspicious of transfers.
To be fair though Nik, Red Bull do seem to have a massive hard on for us. They want all of their players to go to Liverpool. Quite a compliment, I guess.

We're their proof of achievement. When they speak to families of all these promising young footballers they sign now, I bet the word 'Liverpool' makes an appearance in every conversation.
 

Nikola

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To be fair though Nik, Red Bull do seem to have a massive hard on for us. They want all of their players to go to Liverpool. Quite a compliment, I guess.

We're their proof of achievement. When they speak to families of all these promising young footballers they sign now, I bet the word 'Liverpool' makes an appearance in every conversation.
Yeah, no questions about it but the cynic in me always looks for ulterior motives (there's just too much money there, after all). They talk too much about Werner's sale in particular and it's making me uncomfortable, especially under current circumstances where every penny counts even at the richest of clubs. That said, it beats buying players from Southampton, even though a lot of their players lived up to expectations at Liverpool (and Van Dijk and Mane would have made up for buying a trio like Diouf, Downing and Marković for all I care).
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Yes "Best he could do here for us would be as a wide attacker and the 1 in 4231 when Salah isn't/can't play"
You think he'd be picked ahead of Salah when we go with 1 up top in 4231? Werner has a really impressive 70 goals in 121 games over the last 3 seasons. But Salah has 91 in 144 with only 25 of those games listed at CF in which he scored 23 goals. Werner is good but Salah is better and Salah is doing it for this team, in this league. Theres no questions about how it will translate.

He's also not going to be picked for his chance and space creation he'd be picked for his goals so he's not going to be used at the false 9 position or in midfield. Unless we change our tactics to accommodate him and get the best out of him (which would be very strange considering the success we are having with our style) hes not likeky to play as our first choice CF in 4231 which will likely continue being the only formation we use thst uses a CF. We are also unlikely to use a formation that uses a supporting striker which seems his best position.

That leaves covering Salah at CF in 4231 and competing with Salah and Mane as a wide forward in 433.
 

Mark Thurgood

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I haven’t changed my stance on Werner I mentioned it last summer that I’d like to see Werner in a Liverpool shirt, I think he’s a brilliant player and will be a very useful addition.
I can understand in the current climate what precautions clubs are taking. I still think Werner will be a Liverpool player this summer.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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The whole "well we can't possibly afford him he's too expensive" that's coming out now is actually whats persuading me that we really are bringing him in. Its our playbook.
 

ILLOK

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The whole "well we can't possibly afford him he's too expensive" that's coming out now is actually whats persuading me that we really are bringing him in. Its our playbook.
I suppose the difference is that Werner has a 'reasonable' release clause, there is little need to put these stories out there unless the idea that we will only bid at a lower price is true.

Pearce has once again said on The Athletic that there has been no movement on this. Werner's release clause comes into effect in a couple of days so we'll find out soon enough either way.
 

Limiescouse

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I suppose the difference is that Werner has a 'reasonable' release clause, there is little need to put these stories out there unless the idea that we will only bid at a lower price is true.

Pearce has once again said on The Athletic that there has been no movement on this. Werner's release clause comes into effect in a couple of days so we'll find out soon enough either way.
Isnt it the opposite? That it was only at the stated price until the upcoming deadline?
 

CymruRed

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The whole "well we can't possibly afford him he's too expensive" that's coming out now is actually whats persuading me that we really are bringing him in. Its our playbook.

Plus it being made public knowledge that Klopp has had a video chat with him,i doubt very much clubs would let that happen,if there wasn't some kind of deal in the pipeline or already agreed.

I read an interesting article that stated he has a release clause in his contract that expires every year on 15th june with the next one being 40mill euro (£36mill) then 25mill euro (£22mill).With the financial and transfer market up in the air,nobody knows if £50mill is still a decent price for him or a massive overspend.

If the deal does happen,i'm inclined to think we've offered around £30-£40mill (next seasons release clause),come to some middle ground and they've accepted it,maybe he's told them he wants to leave for LFC and the only reason he re-signed was that RB got a decent fee and he wouldn't switch to Bayern.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I suppose the difference is that Werner has a 'reasonable' release clause, there is little need to put these stories out there unless the idea that we will only bid at a lower price is true.

Pearce has once again said on The Athletic that there has been no movement on this. Werner's release clause comes into effect in a couple of days so we'll find out soon enough either way.
Yeah it looks like we won't "trigger" the clause if true. But clauses are inconvenient, they need paying all up front usually and in full. Negotiating a deal, even if superficially the same price or even a little higher, is usually more desirable for the buying club. Especially if they can get some performance clauses taken into account. Deals usually include payment plans and structures too meaning the cost is usually spread. I know you know all that but for the benefit of the thread I thought I'd follow up on your point.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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"Release" clauses don't have to be paid in full. Spanish buy out clauses do, but these are meaningfully different things, and even they can be financed.
Thought both had to be paid in full up front but the difference was buy out clauses had to be paid by the player. Till the price has been paid the clause hasn't been met. Usually clubs actually end up negotiating a similar price though from my understanding.
 

GermanRed

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Read two articles in the last few days (one was about RB Leipzig CEO and one about Nagelsmann) that said they need to sell players otherwise they could get in some trouble or at least won’t be able to make new signings.

One of those articles said they need €60m.

Of course, Liverpool are trying to use that against them.
 

Red over the water

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We should go for the 2021 release clause €40M in anticipation of the new market with the virus. And/or we need to have a good think about Grujic. Good player, but possibly not quite good enough for us. No shame in that. Maybe Leipzig will want him, and that will offset the price too?

All the noise around this makes me think that we are in for Werner and he will come here.
We are just seeing the negotiation playing out a bit.

Werner and a left back, with nobody leaving other than fringe players we allow to go. That would do me for a modest summer, while we wait and see. Then 2021 it’s Mbappé time!
 

KillerBeeLFC

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@Koon put a really good detailed post up about why, although he plays some positions, his style in those positions could maybe be a bad match for us, I'm on the fence on this.

I feel like my uncertainty is being misconstrued and taking over this thread and a lot seem to be irrate that I'm uncertain so will try and limit myself to a few simple responses;

1. We don't need a false 9. We have the best in the business in Firmino, a good back up in Mane and a real promising signing in Minamino before we even look at academy graduates who could yet find themselves a good option in that role.

2. Being a false 9 is not simply about where you play and dropping deep anyway. Werner seems the typical supporting striker, quite possibly a potential world class one, that does not mean he can be an effective false 9. Almost the opposite as a false 9s main functions are about helping others to score why would you choose a player whose main strength is his scoring to play there?

3. I've never seen anyone apart from you claim he can play as a false 9.

4. I'm open to the idea he can adapt to our system and thrive, as a wide forward competing/covering Mane and Salah. It seems the role he is best suited to on a superficial look at things but he'd have to radically change as a player to adapt to any other role in our main 433 system.

5. I'm 50/50 on whether he can bring what we need. There is a huge difference between a natural winger with goal scoring ability being pushed further up the pitch and given a free run at goalscoring due to the use of a great false 9 (Salah and Mane) than a versatile forward being pushed out wide (Origi and Vardy style). I'm not convinced one way or the other what he can achieve but many seem adamant that he's a versatile forward not a natural goal scoring winger so that sets alarm bells ringing for me.

6. His manager or former manager was the one who said he'd never come across a more ruthless to score player.

7. I'm not interested in the shinier toy. I've said I don't think we should pay big money this summer full stop. I've even suggested creative alternatives to plug a gap if need be such as a cheap deal for someone like Promes or an interesting reclamation project of loaning Dembele from Barca with an option to buy to see if Klopp and the medical team can rescue his potential before its lost forever.
I do understand what you are saying about being like for like and you are absolutely right, he wont be like for like for any player we have. I do believe he has the tools to do what we need of him and we have the best manager in the world to tweak his game to what we need. I think this is where we trust the manager and see what he sees rather than seeing what the player cant do. I can see how he will fit personally. I dont actually think klopp wants a perfect like for like. Dembele and Promes are pure wingers so if we go for that option we then have to get cover for the centre. How do we get top players to come here to be a part of 5 players covering for 3 positions were we barely get injuries? Tell them they will deffo play in the mickey mouse cups and be a sub unless someone gets injured? You dont get top players agreeing to that. He is a ruthless goal scorer youre right, thats not a bad thing as long as its not to the detriment of the team. I do appreciate your reply. I cant say other people shouldnt have concerns if they want to, my goal was to point out the positives and felt like you and others where disregarding these unfairly. Any positives brought up would just get the same reply of the negatives that could arise.

A good way to sum it all up is maybe a list of perceived pros and cons then people can decide if either side out weighs the other or add to it

Pros:
May be able to cover multiple positions
Athletic
Young
Mentally strong
Goal scorer
Effective
Price (maybe)

Cons:
Concerns player cannot play the roles we need the same as players we have
Close control
Dulling his strengths when playing in the middle to allow the wingers to occupy the same spaces they do now
Maybe a lack of vision
Game time
Goal scorer
 

GermanRed

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We all love Bobby and appreciate what he is doing as the False9 and I don’t think anyone else in world football could do it what that quality.

I also believe that Klopp is not looking for a signing or another Liverpool player to replicate that.

When I think about Timo Werner as a #9 for Liverpool I’m looking forward to the realistic scenario where he could score 10-15 goals more than Bobby.

I'm not concerned or afraid that others (Mané / Salah) would score less or our style could change and our football could look different.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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We all love Bobby and appreciate what he is doing as the False9 and I don’t think anyone else in world football could do it what that quality.

I also believe that Klopp is not looking for a signing or another Liverpool player to replicate that.

When I think about Timo Werner as a #9 for Liverpool I’m looking forward to the realistic scenario where he could score 10-15 goals more than Bobby.

I'm not concerned or afraid that others (Mané / Salah) would score less or our style could change and our football could look different.
Then you don't appreciate how essential Firmino is for the whole team to be scoring as many goals as it does, particularly Salah and Mane. Its like Alonso in his last season, some really didn't appreciate him as he wasn't stacking up the goals, assists or tackles, what he was doing wasn't quantified in stats. But he was our most essential player that season to how the team was playing and why it got so close to the title. Firmino has been the same in how our attack operates for several seasons now. Hes probably the most important aspect of the attack in the way Klopp sets up his 433.
 
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