Timo Werner (CF) RB Leipzig

What will Werner be leaning on?

  • The Wall of Champions, pointing at the newly installed 6

    Votes: 14 15.9%
  • Nabil Fekir's knee

    Votes: 11 12.5%
  • A bog standard table, with a bog standard pen, and a sheet of random paper

    Votes: 8 9.1%
  • The Champions League trophy for some weird reason

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Sadio's jockstrap

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • The railing at Melwood

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Ralf Rangnick's animosity

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • A giant can of Red Bull, cos he's not coming

    Votes: 40 45.5%
  • "Brazilian shit from beaches"

    Votes: 4 4.5%

  • Total voters
    88
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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The bit in bold is just silly. Lovren has played in World Cup and CL finals and can play against the worlds best players. Phillips has a LONG way to go before he can be ahead of Lovren.

Let's put it this way: If Phillips was Stuttgart's player nobody would be clamouring for us to sign him to replace Lovren.

As for shifting Fabinho in there, I don't see why you'd needlessly create a problem for yourself that requires you to limit your options in midfield.
If Lovren was Stuttgarts player nobody would be clamouring for him either. I didn't say Phillips was above Lovren I said he was good enough to be our 7th choice.

Van Dijk, Gomez, Matip and Fabinho all play better at CB in the way Klopp sets up his team than Lovren does. Lovren has a limited future Hoever and Van Den Berg have potentially good futures I'd be cherry picking game time for them before finding game time for Lovren on list of priorities.

In my pecking order Lovren may not play next season unless we hit major injury issues or we play the domestic cups. Phillips, even though he is more limited than Lovren, has the required quality to satisfy that level of playing time. Lovren is expensive overkill.
 

Sweeting

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I think it was the time out with the ankle injury. Hopefully this enforced lay off has allowed it to clear up fully.
Hopefully. The worrying thing about Fabinho for me is that his issues seemed unrelated to injury - was didn't react well to midfield runners, in fact he didn't seem to notice them at all. I can't remember off the top of my head but it may have been Watford away where we conceded because he was ball watching instead of tracking a runner. Certainly he did it against Chelsea as well when Kante scored.

He's an excellent seek-and-destroy DM. If it is Infront of him he will go and make that challenge and win it 90% of the time. It's when he has to be a bit more cerebral and aware of his surroundings that he shows some rough edges. Certainly something for him to get better at.
 

Richard88

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If Lovren was Stuttgarts player nobody would be clamouring for him either. I didn't say Phillips was above Lovren I said he was good enough to be our 7th choice.

Van Dijk, Gomez, Matip and Fabinho all play better at CB in the way Klopp sets up his team than Lovren does. Lovren has a limited future Hoever and Van Den Berg have potentially good futures I'd be cherry picking game time for them before finding game time for Lovren on list of priorities.

In my pecking order Lovren may not play next season unless we hit major injury issues or we play the domestic cups. Phillips, even though he is more limited than Lovren, has the required quality to satisfy that level of playing time. Lovren is expensive overkill.
You did imply that you'd have Phillips ahead of Lovren by saying that he'd be "as low as 7th choice":

I'd have Fabinho ahead of Lovren providing Henderson or Wijnaldum are fit to play the deepest CM position. So to play Phillips or Lovren through lack of choice you'd need two of Van Dijk, Gomez and Matip injured as well as Fabinho or both of Henderson and Wijnaldum injured/unavailable. It would also have to be a game Klopp didn't think Hoever or Van Den Berg was experienced enough to cope with or them both being unavailable. Thats one hell of an injury crisis. And we'd have more problems than just who we are using at CB. I literally would have Lovren as 5th choice at best, maybe even as low as 7th choice. Phillips is good enough for that and doesn't bring the issues Lovren does. Taking into account the wage bill and what the unwanted CB can be sold for too. Phillips isn't against Coronavirus vaccines and a possible liability to dealing with the pandemic either.
As for your other point in bold, you're being extremely optimistic if you think we're not going to have some sort of injury crisis at CB based on the injury records Matip and Gomez have. There's also been no indication that there won't be domestic cups next season either. I mean yeah, if the league is shortened to 19 games and there's no CL or cups then yeah go ahead and sell Lovren, but until it's confirmed then it would be naive to sell him.

Fwiw, Man City decided to let Kompany walk without replacing him and then rolled into the season with 3 CB's (Stones, Laporte, Otamendi) and that ended in disaster for them. They were forced to play Fernandinho at CB (similar to how you're wanting us to play Fabinho at CB regularly), and that left a huge void in DM that I'd argue is a huge reason why they fell off the pace as much as they did this season. Rodri is a good player but he doesn't bring anywhere near the level of defensive nouse and "snideness" that Fernandinho does and which is essential to keeping City defensively solid with such offensive wingbacks and midfielders ahead of the DM.
 

Not Worthy

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You did imply that you'd have Phillips ahead of Lovren by saying that he'd be "as low as 7th choice":



As for your other point in bold, you're being extremely optimistic if you think we're not going to have some sort of injury crisis at CB based on the injury records Matip and Gomez have. There's also been no indication that there won't be domestic cups next season either. I mean yeah, if the league is shortened to 19 games and there's no CL or cups then yeah go ahead and sell Lovren, but until it's confirmed then it would be naive to sell him.

Fwiw, Man City decided to let Kompany walk without replacing him and then rolled into the season with 3 CB's (Stones, Laporte, Otamendi) and that ended in disaster for them. They were forced to play Fernandinho at CB (similar to how you're wanting us to play Fabinho at CB regularly), and that left a huge void in DM that I'd argue is a huge reason why they fell off the pace as much as they did this season. Rodri is a good player but he doesn't bring anywhere near the level of defensive nouse and "snideness" that Fernandinho does and which is essential to keeping City defensively solid with such offensive wingbacks and midfielders ahead of the DM.
Loveren hasn't been sold, and by no stretch of anyone's imagination, is he as central to LFC as Kompany was to City. So, your "huge reasons" around shifting players are subjective, at best. Loveren's value to Liverpool vs Kompany to City, is not directly comparable.The other substituting players and their roles are not equivalent either.
 

redfanman

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You did imply that you'd have Phillips ahead of Lovren by saying that he'd be "as low as 7th choice":



As for your other point in bold, you're being extremely optimistic if you think we're not going to have some sort of injury crisis at CB based on the injury records Matip and Gomez have. There's also been no indication that there won't be domestic cups next season either. I mean yeah, if the league is shortened to 19 games and there's no CL or cups then yeah go ahead and sell Lovren, but until it's confirmed then it would be naive to sell him.

Fwiw, Man City decided to let Kompany walk without replacing him and then rolled into the season with 3 CB's (Stones, Laporte, Otamendi) and that ended in disaster for them. They were forced to play Fernandinho at CB (similar to how you're wanting us to play Fabinho at CB regularly), and that left a huge void in DM that I'd argue is a huge reason why they fell off the pace as much as they did this season. Rodri is a good player but he doesn't bring anywhere near the level of defensive nouse and "snideness" that Fernandinho does and which is essential to keeping City defensively solid with such offensive wingbacks and midfielders ahead of the DM.
In addition to @Not Worthy 's post, i would add that while Fabinho has frequently been a key player for us in midfield, we have seen Hendo stand up and deliver in that role this season while Fabinho has been unavailable. So the latter moving occasionally into defence will only be an issue if we have several injuries to our midfield at the same time.
 

Mascot88

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Fabinho is one of the world's best DM's. While we might gain ever so slightly by putting him at CB instead of Lovren, we would lose a world class player in midfield.
We’ve loads of world class midfielders, and playing Fab at centre back against the bus parkers just lets us get another one on the park. There would be little difference in Fab’s on the pitch position.
 

Mascot88

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Fwiw, Man City decided to let Kompany walk without replacing him and then rolled into the season with 3 CB's (Stones, Laporte, Otamendi) and that ended in disaster for them.
Laporte is great, but City’s problem wasn’t that they only had two others. It was that Stones and Otamendi are shite. Gomez and Matip are streets ahead of them.
 
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Red over the water

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In the scenario discussed, Fabinho would be the fourth choice cb, replacing Lovren in the pecking order, but having three good options ahead of him, so he would continue to do most of his work in midfield.

It’s all good, and in a world where a bit of versatility is nice to have, Fabinho could cover central defence with aplomb, as needed.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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You did imply that you'd have Phillips ahead of Lovren by saying that he'd be "as low as 7th choice":



As for your other point in bold, you're being extremely optimistic if you think we're not going to have some sort of injury crisis at CB based on the injury records Matip and Gomez have. There's also been no indication that there won't be domestic cups next season either. I mean yeah, if the league is shortened to 19 games and there's no CL or cups then yeah go ahead and sell Lovren, but until it's confirmed then it would be naive to sell him.

Fwiw, Man City decided to let Kompany walk without replacing him and then rolled into the season with 3 CB's (Stones, Laporte, Otamendi) and that ended in disaster for them. They were forced to play Fernandinho at CB (similar to how you're wanting us to play Fabinho at CB regularly), and that left a huge void in DM that I'd argue is a huge reason why they fell off the pace as much as they did this season. Rodri is a good player but he doesn't bring anywhere near the level of defensive nouse and "snideness" that Fernandinho does and which is essential to keeping City defensively solid with such offensive wingbacks and midfielders ahead of the DM.
The current pecking order is VvD, Gomez, Matip, Lovren, Hoever and Van Den Berg. For next season theres an argument over who is best in the DM position between Henderson and Fabinho in the first place. As Fabinho is better as a Klopp style CB than Lovren then for me that allows Lovren to drop down the pecking order. Hoever and Van Den Berg will need playing time to develop so they would arguably be ahead of Lovren in some circumstances too. So at best 5th choice in other circumstances as low as 7th choice. Hes too good (in general, not necessarily for Klopps tactics) and expensive a commodity for that. We won't lose anything by having Phillips as that emergency 7th choice option instead, we might never even field him, maybe bench a few times and a cup game or two if they go ahead.

We are 100% not in the situation City are/were. Henderson is already here and already a world class DM its not like Rodri who was a new player and hadn't settled yet. Gomez is our Laporte, VvD is our Kompany. Losing Lovren is nothing like losing Kompany. Matip is better than any of their other CBs too. Fabinho has already played in CB for us and played at a real top class level (better than any of their CBs except maybe Laporte) and I'm more confident him there for us than Fernandinho there for City and he's their 2nd best CB as opposed to Fabinho who would be our 4th choice.
 

Noo Noo

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I haven't delved into a transfer thread on Twitter for yonks, but when I did this week...

Holy funking stink shits!!!

Who are these moaning cunts??
Were they the same one's that kicked up a stink when the club tried to furlough players maybe?

Sorry if the points been made already, I'm late to the party
 

Richard88

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Let's just bin off all of our squad players so that we can complain that FSG are cheapskates when the starters get burned out and injured and we're forced to play kids in PL title deciders and CL ties.
 

Koon

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Sorry for you guys, but I'm kinda happy about the whole Werner situation. I didn't want him before (not at ~£50m for sure) so now we have a chance of getting another player.

As for Werner, it was a really good choice. Chelsea are creating what we did 4 or 5 years ago. They have a young manager who has been doing a good job and developing teenagers into good players, such as Gilmour, Reece James, Mason Mount, Tomori, Abraham, Odoi (who's so so) and so on.

Also, Pulisic is really good prospect and Ziyech could prove absolutely devastating in the league.

With all that, Werner has a proper team around him. He will have all the freedom and lots of good players supporting him. Ziyech and Pulisic are a very good complement to his play style. Jorginho and his long range pass will also make them a threat in counter-attack.

I'd say, for Werner, he will get more at Chelsea than Liverpool. He will be a huge success. Could totally see him scoring 25+ goals in the league.I don't know about silverware, though.
 

epsomred

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Saw a quote from Jurgen saying they couldn't justify the investment when they were asking players to waive their wages. I was not aware they were doing that.
 

iftikhar

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It’s like when it comes to football, we just don’t want to accept that Coronavirus is a thing.

Sell Origi, Grujic, Wilson, Shaqiri. Right. Who is buying right now?
I will add two more points to this.

Our success, on and off the pitch, is based on good financial management. We have lost a huge chunk of our revenue and splashing 50 million pounds just doesn't seem right.

Then there's some highly rated players who haven't got enough pitch time yet. Why splurge money when you have alternatives available.
 

redfanman

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Saw a quote from Jurgen saying they couldn't justify the investment when they were asking players to waive their wages. I was not aware they were doing that.
I dont think he meant that they are currently being asked to waive their wages but that it is a realistic measure the club may have to take depending on what happens over the next few months?
 

GermanRed

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Clause can be activated until July 15th according to new reports.
 

Noo Noo

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I dont think he meant that they are currently being asked to waive their wages but that it is a realistic measure the club may have to take depending on what happens over the next few months?
I think they're certainly looking at all options and if you have a new player on £150k per week that may or may not contribute from the off, especially when you're playing behind closed doors it's right to question the financial logic of it.

I note Jurgen did say that they might be playing behind closed doors until the new year.
 

Sweeting

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Yikes, ugly from Werner in the Hoffenheim game tonight. In 1v1 with lots of time and he nearly hit it out of the stadium.
 

Sweeting

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Can't say I watched a lot of Leipzig before Corona but I've caught at part of their games since coming back, and the full match more often than not.

I think with Werner he's a guy you look at say "Yeah, he's good" but I'm never really blown away by anything he does and I don't feel like he offers a very rounded performance, it is all based upon fast sprints into space. That can be fine but I feel like our front three need a little more guile than that.

His link up play is often pretty weak. Last night for example, Leipzig had the chance to wrap the game up multiple times - one the miss that ILLOK has put above - but also there were chances when he just had to roll it across the box to another forward for a tap in and he either took a shot from a bad angle or put the pass straight into the feet of a defender.

I'm not a huge fan of his posture either. This is more of a personal issue for me, I know, but he runs very upright and I think that makes him half a second slower on the turn. It's something I've been critical of with Liverpool youth team prospects as well, when they don't shorten their frame whilst dribbling and lower their centre of gravity. Look at Mane, Salah and Firmino - they all have low centres of gravity, they can left or right in a split second. Compare to Origi - he runs tall, he is possibly faster than any of our forwards in a 100m sprint but on the pitch he looks slower because he lacks that burst when changing direction and I think his posture is a big part of that.

Also worth pointing out that he had a fabulous November/December (12 goals, 6 assists in 8 games - including 3 & 3 against Mainz in an 8-0 win) in the Bundesliga but has been a little sporadic outside of that (13 goals, 2 assists in 23 games).

I think Werner will be good for Chelsea, probably get them 15 goals a season or there abouts but I'm not particularly upset to miss out on him and I doubt we will end up being upset he doesn't play for us.

He kind of reminds me of a better version of Andre Schurrle or Anthony Martial - they all come in off the left hand hand side, have a reliance of pace and aren't particularly dynamic when it comes to changing direction.
 

ILLOK

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Can't say I watched a lot of Leipzig before Corona but I've caught at part of their games since coming back, and the full match more often than not.

I think with Werner he's a guy you look at say "Yeah, he's good" but I'm never really blown away by anything he does and I don't feel like he offers a very rounded performance, it is all based upon fast sprints into space. That can be fine but I feel like our front three need a little more guile than that.

His link up play is often pretty weak. Last night for example, Leipzig had the chance to wrap the game up multiple times - one the miss that ILLOK has put above - but also there were chances when he just had to roll it across the box to another forward for a tap in and he either took a shot from a bad angle or put the pass straight into the feet of a defender.

I'm not a huge fan of his posture either. This is more of a personal issue for me, I know, but he runs very upright and I think that makes him half a second slower on the turn. It's something I've been critical of with Liverpool youth team prospects as well, when they don't shorten their frame whilst dribbling and lower their centre of gravity. Look at Mane, Salah and Firmino - they all have low centres of gravity, they can left or right in a split second. Compare to Origi - he runs tall, he is possibly faster than any of our forwards in a 100m sprint but on the pitch he looks slower because he lacks that burst when changing direction and I think his posture is a big part of that.

Also worth pointing out that he had a fabulous November/December (12 goals, 6 assists in 8 games - including 3 & 3 against Mainz in an 8-0 win) in the Bundesliga but has been a little sporadic outside of that (13 goals, 2 assists in 23 games).

I think Werner will be good for Chelsea, probably get them 15 goals a season or there abouts but I'm not particularly upset to miss out on him and I doubt we will end up being upset he doesn't play for us.

He kind of reminds me of a better version of Andre Schurrle or Anthony Martial - they all come in off the left hand hand side, have a reliance of pace and aren't particularly dynamic when it comes to changing direction.
If you delve down into the stats a bit deeper they start to explain the disparity between his performances and his numbers.

Yeah, his top line stats are good, but so are plenty of Leipzig's players if you adjust them for minutes played and penalties. Leipzig play very attacking football and Werner is given more freedom than anyone. He leads the top 5 leagues in offsides but is towards the bottom of the Bundesliga in 'duels contested', which gives you an idea of the freedom Nagelsmann allows him.
 
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