Timo Werner (CF) RB Leipzig

What will Werner be leaning on?

  • The Wall of Champions, pointing at the newly installed 6

    Votes: 14 15.9%
  • Nabil Fekir's knee

    Votes: 11 12.5%
  • A bog standard table, with a bog standard pen, and a sheet of random paper

    Votes: 8 9.1%
  • The Champions League trophy for some weird reason

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Sadio's jockstrap

    Votes: 2 2.3%
  • The railing at Melwood

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • Ralf Rangnick's animosity

    Votes: 3 3.4%
  • A giant can of Red Bull, cos he's not coming

    Votes: 40 45.5%
  • "Brazilian shit from beaches"

    Votes: 4 4.5%

  • Total voters
    88
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Sweeting

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If you delve down into the stats a bit deeper they start to explain the disparity between his performances and his numbers.

Yeah, his top line stats are good, but so are plenty of Leipzig's players if you adjust them for minutes played and penalties. Leipzig play very attacking football and Werner is given more freedom than anyone. He leads the top 5 leagues in offsides but is towards the bottom of the Bundesliga in 'duels contested', which gives you an idea of the freedom Nagelsmann allows him.
The German league is also very hospitable to counter attaacking teams. Outside of the top 6 sides I am often baffled at what clubs are doing defensively. If you watch a highlights package it is amazing how many times Sancho, Werner and Gnabry get clear runs on goal from the halfway line, I mean literally not a single other player near them. Then you look at the score and it's 0-0 - why are teams defending like that?

The bottom half of the Bundesliga are probably mid-Championship level at most, so goalscoring stats are skewed badly.
 

ILLOK

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The German league is also very hospitable to counter attaacking teams. Outside of the top 6 sides I am often baffled at what clubs are doing defensively. If you watch a highlights package it is amazing how many times Sancho, Werner and Gnabry get clear runs on goal from the halfway line, I mean literally not a single other player near them. Then you look at the score and it's 0-0 - why are teams defending like that?

The bottom half of the Bundesliga are probably mid-Championship level at most, so goalscoring stats are skewed badly.
Yep. Have a look at Werner's last goal against Koln, a goal our fans were trying to compare to Salah's against United. Koln literally had 1 player in their own half, the goalkeeper, in the 49th minute of the game.

The German league is hospitable to goalscoring full stop. The leagues sees over 3 goals a game, something like 3.2 this season. The premier league and Serie A are somewhere around the 2.7 mark, La Liga lower, Ligue 1 even lower. Germany have 4 or 5 sides who concede 2 per game, most other top leagues have the odd 1.

It's a great league to watch and is fantastic for other reasons too but it also elevates some attacking players above their stations.
 

Sweeting

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Yep. Have a look at Werner's last goal against Koln, a goal our fans were trying to compare to Salah's against United. Koln literally had 1 player in their own half, the goalkeeper, in the 49th minute of the game.

The German league is hospitable to goalscoring full stop. The leagues sees over 3 goals a game, something like 3.2 this season. The premier league and Serie A are somewhere around the 2.7 mark, La Liga lower, Ligue 1 even lower. Germany have 4 or 5 sides who concede 2 per game, most other top leagues have the odd 1.

It's a great league to watch and is fantastic for other reasons too but it also elevates some attacking players above their stations.
Just had to look those goals up (I couldn't even remember Salah's goal!) but yeah they are completely different. Man Utd were chasing the game and Salah broke and scored in the last minute - of course United throw everyone forward.

All Koln were doing was giving the game away - you might get a chance like that one or twice a season in the Premier League, it is every single week in the Bundesliga.
 

Sweeting

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Yep. Have a look at Werner's last goal against Koln, a goal our fans were trying to compare to Salah's against United. Koln literally had 1 player in their own half, the goalkeeper, in the 49th minute of the game.

The German league is hospitable to goalscoring full stop. The leagues sees over 3 goals a game, something like 3.2 this season. The premier league and Serie A are somewhere around the 2.7 mark, La Liga lower, Ligue 1 even lower. Germany have 4 or 5 sides who concede 2 per game, most other top leagues have the odd 1.

It's a great league to watch and is fantastic for other reasons too but it also elevates some attacking players above their stations.
Another example of this from today's games... first highlight

16 minutes in, Dortmund get 3v1 after clearing their lines because Dusseldorf have almost every player in Dortmund's half.

It's crazy defending.

 
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ILLOK

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Another example of this from today's games... first highlight

16 minutes in, Dortmund get 3v1 after clearing their lines because Dusseldorf have almost every player in Dortmund's half.

It's crazy defending.
You'll see it often when watching the BL. I've brought this up before when discussing the likes of Sancho and Haaland. It's not that they wouldn't be good enough to go elsewhere, but you have to factor these things into account when deciding just how good they currently are.

It brings up a more broad discussion about data in football, it can be interesting to look at but you have to remember its limitations too. Does Van Dijk make the most tackles of any centre back? Probably not, but I've yet to see a better centre back 1v1 than he is. He probably wins 'duels' less often than his ability would suggest because no striker wants to go anywhere near him. There are so many variables such as team style, league qualities etc to consider.

Is buying defensive players from Atletico a guaranteed path to success? Judging by Hernandez at Bayern, Godin at Inter, Rodri at City...not exactly. They're obviously good players, but have they been made to look better than they are? Possibly. Same thing is happening here with Werner I think. You can't be shit and have those numbers in a league like the Bundesliga, but they're far from guarantee a world class player either which is what he is being advertised as.
 
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Red over the water

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Werner is a good player and he will score goals at Chelsea. The question is whether he is good enough for us? As an upgrade on Origi? Yes. But not at that price in the new uncertainty.

Good enough to be a replacement for one of the current front three? Nope. A definite step down.

At some point we will have to start thinking about replacing the front three. They still have plenty on the clock, so it’s not urgent, but you have to be looking to the future, and I’m sure we are. At that point players like Sancho and Havertz come into the conversation, and for all we know, there are a few like that knocking around right now, only they are still 2-3 years away from bursting into everyone’s consciousness, but Edwards will know all about them.
 

KillerBeeLFC

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but they're far from guarantee a world class player either which is what he is being advertised as.
This is what people against the move dont seem to understand. No one was saying he is a world class star at this moment, not that i seen anyway. Hes just turned 24 in march. Hes a good young player who has the attributes to develop into what we need. Its ok you and anny road banging the same drum every time i see this page but yous seem to not realise what people are seeing in the guy. Every other post in this thread is either you or anny road thinking up some other reason hed be a bad signing or just repeating the same things ha. The club wanted him thats pretty clear. Im not happy about not getting a player the club wanted, you guys might be but I'd prefer we get our targets
 

redfanman

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This is what people against the move dont seem to understand. No one was saying he is a world class star at this moment, not that i seen anyway. Hes just turned 24 in march. Hes a good young player who has the attributes to develop into what we need. Its ok you and anny road banging the same drum every time i see this page but yous seem to not realise what people are seeing in the guy. Every other post in this thread is either you or anny road thinking up some other reason hed be a bad signing or just repeating the same things ha. The club wanted him thats pretty clear. Im not happy about not getting a player the club wanted, you guys might be but I'd prefer we get our targets
It's a fact of life that the club doesnt get all of its targets, and that is really OK. It would be more of a worry where we to miss out on a player we really wanted and were willing to pay whatever was being asked for them - which clearly isnt the case here.
 

KillerBeeLFC

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It's a fact of life that the club doesnt get all of its targets, and that is really OK. It would be more of a worry where we to miss out on a player we really wanted and were willing to pay whatever was being asked for them - which clearly isnt the case here.
We are never willing to pay whatevers being asked for any player. There would of even been a ceiling for vvd and ali at which point we would of turned away from a deal. I dont think we need werner like we needed vvd and ali though so the ceiling would always be lower for a forward I think. We did want the player though, and if we wanted him and missed out then thats not great. Im not that arsed about not getting a player but hed one of the clubs most expensive transfers still even at a "cheap" price so the club clearly had faith hed be able to cut it here.
 

redfanman

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We are never willing to pay whatevers being asked for any player.
Well, we must be as otherwise we could never sign them.....I never suggested that the price being asked is the first one given....

But my point was that there is a difference between paying a fee for a must have player such as VVD, and a nice to have player. We've 'missed out' on several of the latter while Klopp has been here and it hasnt been a problem. Werner as you yourself admit is not the former.
 

KillerBeeLFC

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Well, we must be as otherwise we could never sign them.....I never suggested that the price being asked is the first one given....

But my point was that there is a difference between paying a fee for a must have player such as VVD, and a nice to have player. We've 'missed out' on several of the latter while Klopp has been here and it hasnt been a problem. Werner as you yourself admit is not the former.
If whatevers being asked is too high then we wouldnt pay....

My point is we were after him and wanted him so people trying to say he wouldnt fit because he plays in a different system is not something the club agrees on. If you take a look at my original post it had nothing to do with price, just about the club wanting him so they must of thought hed be a good fit.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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If whatevers being asked is too high then we wouldnt pay....

My point is we were after him and wanted him so people trying to say he wouldnt fit because he plays in a different system is not something the club agrees on. If you take a look at my original post it had nothing to do with price, just about the club wanting him so they must of thought hed be a good fit.
€50 million is a good price for him. We never made a bid or contacted RB. Yes Coronavirus has mucked things up but we traditionally work on our deals a lot longer than 3 months. Faabinho was started in the August before, we were talking to Roma over Alisson for 6 months. If the club really were definitely, 100%, going to be going for Werner till the Coronavirus situation changed things we would have been in touch with RB before Coronavirus changed things. This "the club wanted him so he must be able to fit" relies on the club definitely being set up to sign him at some point. We don't know that. All we do know is that 1 he was a player of interest (along with dozens, maybe hundreds, of others) and that 2 there's was a hell of a lot of talk in Germany over the deal (almost certainly all from the players camp). Our journalists admitted that they were guessing as he fit everything we had told them we were looking for, there was lots of talk/confirmation from the German side of things and he was available.
 

Noo Noo

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Without saying I've seen a lot of him play perhaps he's more of a goal scorer / poacher than we currently have. I personally wouldn't object to introducing something a little different to the squad. Our current 3 are are not far off being irreplaceable with our current system of play. To swap in another player I think you need to widen the tactical scope of the team a bit. That is no bad thing.

But as said I'm all in with Klopp and Edwards anyway. If they think it's right I'm the last person to argue.
 

Drubas

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The German league is also very hospitable to counter attaacking teams. Outside of the top 6 sides I am often baffled at what clubs are doing defensively. If you watch a highlights package it is amazing how many times Sancho, Werner and Gnabry get clear runs on goal from the halfway line, I mean literally not a single other player near them. Then you look at the score and it's 0-0 - why are teams defending like that?

The bottom half of the Bundesliga are probably mid-Championship level at most, so goalscoring stats are skewed badly.
They just play differently. There is only one team that would make Tony Pulis smile, and that's Union Berlin. The quality is there.
 

GermanRed

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Werner decided not to play for RB Leipzig in the CL anymore.

He will join Chelsea after the Bundesliga season ends next week.

CL will be resumed in August.
 

Libero

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Werner is a good player and he will score goals at Chelsea. The question is whether he is good enough for us? As an upgrade on Origi? Yes. But not at that price in the new uncertainty.

Good enough to be a replacement for one of the current front three? Nope. A definite step down.

At some point we will have to start thinking about replacing the front three. They still have plenty on the clock, so it’s not urgent, but you have to be looking to the future, and I’m sure we are. At that point players like Sancho and Havertz come into the conversation, and for all we know, there are a few like that knocking around right now, only they are still 2-3 years away from bursting into everyone’s consciousness, but Edwards will know all about them.
That’s how I see it too, and would he start ahead of any of our front 3 at the moment? Who are in the peak of their careers? I think not. I don’t see the point in spending that sort of money on a player who will be warming our bench and not playing regularly. Until one of the front 3 move on then we can look for a replacement.
 

Quagmire81

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The German league is also very hospitable to counter attaacking teams. Outside of the top 6 sides I am often baffled at what clubs are doing defensively. If you watch a highlights package it is amazing how many times Sancho, Werner and Gnabry get clear runs on goal from the halfway line, I mean literally not a single other player near them. Then you look at the score and it's 0-0 - why are teams defending like that?

The bottom half of the Bundesliga are probably mid-Championship level at most, so goalscoring stats are skewed badly.
Harsh. Reality is they don't use park the bus tactics over there. If you want to see comical defending watch dutch football. Which is ironic as the best defender in the world is dutch.
 

Jimmyscase

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Wouldn't it be a fantastic turn of events for Nat Phillips if Stuttgart's €4million share of Chelsea's money was spent on him...
 
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