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What would you class as a success?

lfc.eddie

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I agree with what your saying about mentality, however we as fans need to understand that disappointment doesn't equal failure necessarily, if we don't win the league disappointment is natural, especially considering our position, but it wouldn't mean we failed outright. It just means focus on the positives and learn from the failures.
Yeah, I would not call this a successful season if we don't win a trophy (only Champs League and League title now), even if we get into finals of the Champs League. It isn't a failure either as there are clear signs of progress, but it would be a huge disappointment. Something that isn't too difficult to put together == not winning title or champs league means a disappointing season, out of top 4 == extreme failure (a failure that can cost the manager his job).
 

Dane

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I agree with what your saying about mentality, however we as fans need to understand that disappointment doesn't equal failure necessarily, if we don't win the league disappointment is natural, especially considering our position, but it wouldn't mean we failed outright. It just means focus on the positives and learn from the failures.
After 29 years, with only 3 or 4 realistic league title challenges, learning from failures has long since become tiresome.

If we dont finish first, I wont be shouting for Klopp to be sacked, because he is progressing us.
However, in black & white terms, winning nothing this season is ultimately failure in my eyes.
 

James H

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After 29 years, with only 3 or 4 realistic league title challenges, learning from failures has long since become tiresome.

If we dont finish first, I wont be shouting for Klopp to be sacked, because he is progressing us.
However, in black & white terms, winning nothing this season is ultimately failure in my eyes.
Our previous title bids weren't built on the same foundation or with the same manager, I get what you're saying about trophies but let's say we finish second this year but it's the vital experience gained to finally push us over the line next year, would a trophy less season here still be failure?
 

Dane

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Our previous title bids weren't built on the same foundation or with the same manager, I get what you're saying about trophies but let's say we finish second this year but it's the vital experience gained to finally push us over the line next year, would a trophy less season here still be failure?
YES
 

Rambler

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90 points
11 wins from 16 games, think we can do that, might need more to win the league
but 90 points is title winning form
you'd be very harsh to say Klopp and Liverpool are failures if hitting 90 points
No-one remembers who finished second no matter how many points you get. Sport at this level is about winning.

First is first. Second is nowhere.
 

geebo

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Its not really about what I would class as success. Success for me i having the right manager, good owners, and a squad that can legitimately challenge for every trophy we take part in.

The real question is, given our current position, what would I see as success? well, I am one of those who , given the choice of trophies, would rather win no 19. I fully accept that chances of winning it doent come every year, and that dropping out of the FA cup was ok by me to take advantage of our great position..... the fact we are in a position to do that is perfect for me. At the beginning of the season I would have liked a trophy and a title challenge even if it failed. Now given the position we are in it would be slightly disappointing not to win either trophy, however, it would not be the end of the world. we still have a very strong squad... but it wouldnt do us any harm to win once in a while !
 

Irishanfield

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No-one remembers who finished second no matter how many points you get. Sport at this level is about winning.

First is first. Second is nowhere.
Yes but is finishing 2nd on 90+ pts count as a failure?
If say we're in the top 4 consistently for the last 4 or 5 seasons without winning anything then ya no matter the pts finish it would be a failure but this season then no
 

Dane

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90 points
11 wins from 16 games, think we can do that, might need more to win the league
but 90 points is title winning form
you'd be very harsh to say Klopp and Liverpool are failures if hitting 90 points
Definite progress, but not success.

Success in sport by default brings happiness and celebration (or at least that's the idea).

Not sure I'll even crack a smile if we get 90 points and lose the league title by a point
 

Irishanfield

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Definite progress, but not success.

Success in sport by default brings happiness and celebration (or at least that's the idea).

Not sure I'll even crack a smile if we get 90 points and lose the league title by a point
But you quite clearly stated above that if we finish 2nd (regardless of pts total) it would a failure.

Is progress a failure in your eyes?
 

Dane

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But you quite clearly stated above that if we finish 2nd (regardless of pts total) it would a failure.

Is progress a failure in your eyes?
I really cant be arsed making my opinion any simpler than I already have.
 

Irishanfield

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I really cant be arsed making my opinion any simpler than I already have.
Dane
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Today at 8:11 AM#64
James H said:
Our previous title bids weren't built on the same foundation or with the same manager, I get what you're saying about trophies but let's say we finish second this year but it's the vital experience gained to finally push us over the line next year, would a trophy less season here still be failure?
YES
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Dane
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45 minutes ago#73
Show me the Mane said:
90 points
11 wins from 16 games, think we can do that, might need more to win the league
but 90 points is title winning form
you'd be very harsh to say Klopp and Liverpool are failures if hitting 90 points
Definite progress, but not success.

Success in sport by default brings happiness and celebration (or at least that's the idea).

Not sure I'll even crack a smile if we get 90 points and lose the league title by a point
2 different answers
 

Dane

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You've completely lost me.

Explain how they are different
 

Irishanfield

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You've completely lost me.

Explain how they are different

So do you see progress as failure?

I totally agree that only winning something is a success but surely as long as we are progressing (especially in the short term) it can't be deemed a failure. There does come a point like say where spurs are that despite having their best pts tally at this stage ever in the Premier league that if they don't win anything then it has to be a seen a failure because they have been doing well consistently for a few seasons now
 

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Dane

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So do you see progress as failure?

I totally agree that only winning something is a success but surely as long as we are progressing (especially in the short term) it can't be deemed a failure. There does come a point like say where spurs are that despite having their best pts tally at this stage ever in the Premier league that if they don't win anything then it has to be a seen a failure because they have been doing well consistently for a few seasons now
Right, this is my last take on this.
Comparing the question to real life.

Around March last year I decided to look for another job, with a goal to secure one before the year end (same time as a football season).
Sent several speculative enquiries, and submitted a few applications.
Started off by getting zero responses, which then turned into acknowledgements, and now I have 2 interviews lined up.

My goal was to secure different employment, I made pleasing progression, but ultimately I failed to secure a new job.

Liverpool started the season with an aim to win the league (at least they better have had that mentality)
They're making great progress and are pleasing the supporters in the process.
If they come up short in May they will have failed.

I really cant make it any simpler.
 
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Irishanfield

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Right, this is my last take on this.
Comparing the question to real life.

Around March last year I decided to look for another job, with a goal to secure one before the year end (same time as a football season).
Sent several speculative enquiries, and submitted a few applications.
Started off by getting zero responses, which then turned into acknowledgements, and now I have 2 interviews lined up.

My goal was to secure different employment, I made pleasing progression, but ultimately I failed to secure a new job.

Liverpool started the season with an aim to win the league (at least they better have had that mentality)
They're making great progress and are pleasing the supporters in the process.
If they come up short in May they will have failed.

I really cant make it any simpler.
No I do get what you are saying but just disagree with it
 

James H

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Definite progress, but not success.

Success in sport by default brings happiness and celebration (or at least that's the idea).

Not sure I'll even crack a smile if we get 90 points and lose the league title by a point
Fans cracking a smile really doesn't factor into the success or failure of a season. My position throughout this thread that lack of outright success does not mean outright failure, I understand yours is different.
I really cant be arsed making my opinion any simpler than I already have.
Liverpool started the season with an aim to win the league (at least they better have had that mentality)
They're making great progress and are pleasing the supporters in the process.
If they come up short in May they will have failed.

I really cant make it any simpler.
The bolded parts here are the problem, your trying to view success and failure through a far too simplistic idea of what it is. The vast majority of Liverpool fans would view the league as our bread and butter, but you're view of success would essentially allow us to, after two top four finishes, drop to 6th, fall out of the elite European competition and win the league cup. Then our season would be more successful than 2nd in the league and a semi final in the CL.

Season goals are not set out as win the league nothing else is success, there are primary goals, which in our case would have been to challenge for the title, we were the underdogs in this race, followed by secondary and tertiary goals. These can range from top four and any trophy to win the CL.

As a football season progresses these goals either become attainable or not and goals are altered accordingly. At the start of the season I would speculate our primary goals would have been title challenge, semi-final CL and a trophy. If we achieved the first 2 but not the third the season may not be an outright success but neither is it a failure.

As the season has progressed and we are in the position we are in our primary goals have shifted to the league. Even if that falls short the season is not an outright failure but it will be disappointing.

Edit: due to poor wording.
 

Red over the water

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It's a tricky question to answer. Obviously winning the league would be a success that everyone could agree with. Winning the Champions League would too, though if we won that and came second in the league, we'd still have that Premier League monkey to get off our back, and after starting the league campaign so well there would be a certain disappointment, at least among some fans, that we didn't finish the job.

An easier question to answer would be "What would you class as progress?" Then you could say stuff like title challenge, style of play, points amassed, etc. But success, at least the way we tend to view it, seems so binary. It's a zero sum game. You win or lose. But seeing success like that might not be helpful.

For example, win the league cup and finish fifth in the Premier League? It satisfies the trophy requirement for those who hark back to Shanks and say we exist to win trophies. But would that really be success? Not for me. Not in the modern game. (I know we are out of the domestic cups, I'm just giving an example).

So, answering the question based on where we are today - 4 points clear with 16 games to go, I'd say that an unqualified success would be winning that Premier League title. A 'success' (with some qualification on it) would be a close title challenge.

An unqualified success would also be winning the CL, though based on our own history and pedigree, most Liverpool fans would probably prefer to win the Premier League than the Champions League if a choice was offered (I suspect it is the other way around for Man City, as it's all about winning the one you haven't won).

Winning both the Prem and the CL would be dreamland, and I'd be looking to buy a plane ticket to get back to Liverpool for the mother of all open bus top parades!
 

Dane

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Fans cracking a smile really doesn't factor into the success or failure of a season. My position throughout this thread that lack of outright success does not mean outright failure, I understand yours is different.


The bolded parts here are the problem, your trying to view success and failure through a far too simplistic idea of what it is. The vast majority of Liverpool fans would view the league as our bread and butter, but you're view of success would essentially allow us to, after two top four finishes, drop to 6th, fall out of the elite European competition and win the league cup. Then our season would be more successful than 2nd in the league and a semi final in the CL.

Season goals are not set out as win the league nothing else is success, there are primary goals, which in our case would have been to challenge for the title, we were the underdogs in this race, followed by secondary and tertiary goals. These can range from top four and any trophy to win the CL.

As a football season progresses these goals either become attainable or not and goals are altered accordingly. At the start of the season I would speculate our primary goals would have been title challenge, semi-final CL and a trophy. If we achieved the first 2 but not the third the season may not be an outright success but neither is it a failure.

As the season has progressed and we are in the position we are in our primary goals have shifted to the league. Even if that falls short the season is not an outright failure but it will be disappointing.

Edit: due to poor wording.
Too many assumptions.
And to assume will make an ass out of you and me.
 

lfc.eddie

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Success and progress Is very different in terms of what I see. I see success as you win something tangible, and so far we haven’t. We have progressed from Europa League finals to Champs League finals, but we still failed to win both. So yeah no shiny things no success, but there are progress.
 



RedYank

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There is the expression: tomorrow is guaranteed no one. In a sport analogy, one can say the same thing for a club's season. Today's success, progression, or what have you, is not guaranteed to be better. I have been enjoying this season immensely, and yes, even more than last season. No reason whatsoever that the upward progress should not continue. But...

I fully expect silverware--perhaps double portion--by the end of the campaign. No guarantees, of course. I will ponder the success or failure of the season, after the season. But, I fully expect to be quite happy. :well done:
 

NZred

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Given our record to date this season and where we sit, we absolutely must win the title. Anything else is a failure, I'd even be gutted if we lost the title and win the CL. I want that title more than anything.
 

Dutch

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I want to win the League, winning the CL would be nice but winning the league in 38 matches is the hardest thing to do, I want that.
 

nobluff

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I classify success as winning 1 or more of league, cl/el, fa, or that other cup(in that order) I would deem anything else as either improvement, stagnation or regression.