Who would you buy?

redbj

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I actually don’t disagree with anything you say to be honest.

It’s a tweak on what you are saying, that’s all.

I’m not looking to outspend citeh over a sustained period, but I am saying that if there was 50 plus to spend on Fekir, or 80 plus to spend on Timo, then I’d love us to spend it, as Klopps net spend is quite thrifty.

I get the type of man he is, and what he’s bringing to the club regarding training ground vs chequebook....

But if Timo Werner was to report to training first thing on Monday morning I’m 100% sure Kloppo would not storm into the bosses office in a huff.

It just feels right to go all out to top this squad up right now, not just for this season, but for next too.




But don’t confuse this with me complaining, the way the club has gone about business for the last whatever period of time it is, has me full of confidence that I don’t have to worry that any stones are being left unturned in our bid for success.

The last time I complained was when we didn’t sign VVD that window, why the hell didn’t we have a plan B........tasty fucking humble pie that....

I’m just saying, I’d love us to go big in the next two weeks. I’d be fucking chuffed.
 

Iluvatar

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I actually don’t disagree with anything you say to be honest.

It’s a tweak on what you are saying, that’s all.

I’m not looking to outspend citeh over a sustained period, but I am saying that if there was 50 plus to spend on Fekir, or 80 plus to spend on Timo, then I’d love us to spend it, as Klopps net spend is quite thrifty.

I get the type of man he is, and what he’s bringing to the club regarding training ground vs chequebook....

But if Timo Werner was to report to training first thing on Monday morning I’m 100% sure Kloppo would not storm into the bosses office in a huff.

It just feels right to go all out to top this squad up right now, not just for this season, but for next too.

But don’t confuse this with me complaining, the way the club has gone about business for the last whatever period of time it is, has me full of confidence that I don’t have to worry that any stones are being left unturned in our bid for success.

The last time I complained was when we didn’t sign VVD that window, why the hell didn’t we have a plan B........tasty fucking humble pie that....

I’m just saying, I’d love us to go big in the next two weeks. I’d be fucking chuffed.
I just think it's not as cut and dry i.e. Red Bull won't sell Werner till the summer, so we may be making those bids but just getting flat out rejected.

Klopp doesn't strike me as a "bring in a body" he will look to use youth, he'll move people into a new position, he'll tweak his tactics/formation to overcome a short term problem.

If Edwards says sorry Klopp 100% they won't sell Werner this window but you get him in summer, I think Klopp says right ok I'll work with what I have till I get what I want. Which is what I think is key - RedForever will have you believe this is lack of ambition and FSG not providing funds to Klopp, I disagree and say it's reality of the January window.
 

RedForever2014

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Re fiscal irresponsibility, I'm certain no Jeremy Corbyn in terms of madhouse economics that have always failed and will always fail.

I want us to be fiscally responsible, my point remains that I don't expect us to match City or United in terms of net spending, but I think we'll need to spend more than £30m net a season, relying on good scouting to use that money effectively and Klopp's man management to make us competitive regardless.

The Dortmund/Bayern comparison isn't wholly relevant. Germany has one rich club, England has at least three that LFC has to get the better of, plus the likes of Spurs and Arsenal as direct competitors in terms of financial position.

One can never really glean what could be made available for net spending, when the club is part of an international group structure where revenues can be moved around and manipulated.

I just feel that a club that reported £36m post tax profit in its most recent published accounts and turning over £300m+, could be spending more net when we do.

As to timing of that spending, especially if waiting is more to do with paying a premium for signing someone like Werner now than in the summer, I think you need to consider the moment as well as the long term.

The title campaign has gone so much better than we expected, in part because City had a stumble in December that nobody expected.

When we've dropped points this season its been because we've just missed that little extra (City away), or been fatigued (Chelsea away).

Nobody expected to be 4 points clear in the New Year, and having played City twice it's LFC's to lose. From this position you really should be looking to firm everything up and paying £10m more for Werner now would be worth 10 times that if we win the title and go deeper into the CL.

You'd think the club would have learned about value rather than price by now. Alisson paid about £10m of his fee back with one save in the Napoli match, seeing us to the last 16.

I do think its convenient for some on here to try and position my views as extreme and unrealistic when the reality is my view on the spending is fair minded.

I have always said FSG have professionalised LFC commercially, whilst also riding the wave of the TV rights inflation. I have praised the recent transfer activity, both the maxing out of player sales and the good buys.

But I still think they could allow a bit more spending at this crucial juncture to take LFC over the line to actual trophy winners.

Winning the PL and CL this season would be huge for the future of the club, winning either would be great but still a wasted opportunity IMO.

Winning neither would ask serious questions about competence and intent.

People often mention Klopp's stated preferences.

Well when he got here he called the loan system madness and is now its biggest fan. He called spending big bucks crazy and now does it himself.

Maybe one day he'll look back and realise that January activity to sure up trophy chances was a missed opportunity.
 
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Mascot88

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Re fiscal irresponsibility, I'm certain no Jeremy Corbyn in terms of madhouse economics that have always failed and will always fail.

I want us to be fiscally responsible, my point remains that I don't expect us to match City or United in terms of net spending, but I think we'll need to spend more than £30m net a season, relying on good scouting to use that money effectively and Klopp's man management to make us competitive regardless.

The Dortmund/Bayern comparison isn't wholly relevant. Germany has one rich club, England has at least three that LFC has to get the better of, plus the likes of Spurs and Arsenal as direct competitors in terms of financial position.

One can never really glean what could be made available for net spending, when the club is part of an international group structure where revenues can be moved around and manipulated.

I just feel that a club that reported £36m post tax profit in its most recent published accounts and turning over £300m+, could be spending more net when we do.

As to timing of that spending, especially if waiting is more to do with paying a premium for signing someone like Werner now than in the summer, I think you need to consider the moment as well as the long term.

The title campaign has gone so much better than we expected, in part because City had a stumble in December that nobody expected.

When we've dropped points this season its been because we've just missed that little extra (City away), or been fatigued (Chelsea away).

Nobody expected to be 4 points clear in the New Year, and having played City twice it's LFC's to lose. From this position you really should be looking to firm everything up and paying £10m more for Werner now would be worth 10 times that if we win the title and go deeper into the CL.

You'd think the club would have learned about value rather than price by now. Alisson paid about £10m of his fee back with one save in the Napoli match, seeing us to the last 16.

I do think its convenient for some on here to try and position my views as extreme and unrealistic when the reality is my view on the spending is fair minded.

I have always said FSG have professionalised LFC commercially, whilst also riding the wave of the TV rights inflation. I have praised the recent transfer activity, both the maxing out of player sales and the good buys.

But I still think they could allow a bit more spending at this crucial juncture to take LFC over the line to actual trophy winners.

Winning the PL and CL this season would be huge for the future of the club, winning either would be great but still a wasted opportunity IMO.

Winning neither would ask serious questions about competence and intent.

People often mention Klopp's stated preferences.

Well when he got here he called the loan system madness and is now its biggest fan. He called spending big bucks crazy and now does it himself.

Maybe one day he'll look back and realise that January activity to sure up trophy chances was a missed opportunity.
Again, you are making the massive assumption that this is a problem of intention rather than availability.

The problem is that the players that would be of use to us are not generally available in January.

Your have an idea that all that’s necessary is for Klopp/Edwards/FSG to decide to spend more and this will automatically lead to LFC having better players.

We have no evidence that we’ve missed out on anyone or compromised the squad because we’ve been unwilling to spend the money.
 

Red over the water

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He has got a point though.

Success correlates directly with matching there or thereabouts spending vs your rivals over a sustained period of time.

There really are no cases apart from outliers like LCFC that go against that reality.

Given that we cannot outspend at least two of our direct rivals (Roman seems to have reeled himself in a bit) then what we do need to do is spend what we can.

Can’t be arsed going through the figures but if we were to just say the 30m a season is close enough then to me, that needs to be adjusted.

Even taking in the Klopp factor of working on the training field first, that figure seems low.

For me, we should be moving heaven and earth to go large sooner rather than later......for me, again, it’s more about the bedding period than squad filling.

Let’s say it is Timo Werner Klopp is after....in a perfect world, I’d rather we pay the premium to get him early so he can hit the ground running next season.




Obviously there’s a ridiculous amount of variables so I’m certainly NOT criticising the club or manager.....but yeah, I’d like to see this form backed up with real intent.

New faces in the dressing room can backfire, but more often than not, for the really well scouted players the squad gets a great bounce from the extra challenge for a place.
I agree that we should do all that we reasonably can, in terms of finances, or at least make it available to the manager. I think that’s what we do, give or take, though I’m not on top of spreadsheets to the nth degree.

If we could sign Timo Werner this month I’m sure we would, but Leipzig said he can’t go until the summer. Beyond the timing we aren’t altogether sure we would be his number one choice, since Bayern Munich have form for snapping up the best young German talent. But hopefully we are in for him and he comes. Fingers crossed.
 

LFCFFC

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The problem is that the players that would be of use to us are not generally available in January.
A key point that often gets lost here. It'd be like Madrid fans complaining that we refused to sell Salah to them in the winter window.

That's not to say you can't get quality in January, but it's much harder/costlier and Klopp has shown how specific he is with his targets. We wouldn't be in the position we are now without wise investment and a refusal to panic buy.
 

RedForever2014

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Again, you are making the massive assumption that this is a problem of intention rather than availability.

The problem is that the players that would be of use to us are not generally available in January.

Your have an idea that all that’s necessary is for Klopp/Edwards/FSG to decide to spend more and this will automatically lead to LFC having better players.

We have no evidence that we’ve missed out on anyone or compromised the squad because we’ve been unwilling to spend the money.
Personally I think we need a boost up top as Sturridge and Origi have looked of little value. If we can't sign anyone permanently or on loan, I'd think about recalling Wilson.
 

Speckydodge

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Personally I think we need a boost up top as Sturridge and Origi have looked of little value. If we can't sign anyone permanently or on loan, I'd think about recalling Wilson.
Nobody is disagreeing that we could do with more firepower up top and now would be preferable, the realism however is that we're looking at such a tiny tiny market of players that meet our pretty specific requirements that those players are pretty much guaranteed to be important players for clubs that are challenging for titles or cl qualification. We can throw as much money as we want at them but they would be absolutely stupid to sell in this window. What logical reason would Leipzig have for selling Werner now? An extra 10m, well CL qualification is worth shit loads more then that and they know us or bayern will be back in the summer anyway.
 

vjcpatriot

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At this point with TAA due to miss at least a month due to injury, I'd go for a hybrid CB/RB player.

Topping my list would be Benjamin Pavard who played well in the World Cup as well as Joshua Kimmich. Pavard can play RB/CB whilst Kimmich can play RB/DM.

If we can't get a top class target, I'm ok with going for a relatively cheap stop gap player until our starters can return to fitness. I believe Klavan was ok in limited minutes. Maybe another player of his ilk to just shore up the defence for now.
 

FilthyBloke

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Any players from anywhere available for loan that might be useful?
Someone who a club might be happy to get off the wage bill for a while?
An anelka type loan would be good right now...
 

charleslee89

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At this point with TAA due to miss at least a month due to injury, I'd go for a hybrid CB/RB player.

Topping my list would be Benjamin Pavard who played well in the World Cup as well as Joshua Kimmich. Pavard can play RB/CB whilst Kimmich can play RB/DM.

If we can't get a top class target, I'm ok with going for a relatively cheap stop gap player until our starters can return to fitness. I believe Klavan was ok in limited minutes. Maybe another player of his ilk to just shore up the defence for now.
Pavard has gone to bayern.
 

wibseyred

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Any players from anywhere available for loan that might be useful?
Someone who a club might be happy to get off the wage bill for a while?
An anelka type loan would be good right now...
That statement is a contradiction in terms. At this stage of the season if your available for loan your not that useful. Clubs only loan players when the fail to sell them.
 

Semmy

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That statement is a contradiction in terms. At this stage of the season if your available for loan your not that useful. Clubs only loan players when the fail to sell them.
Nathaniel Clyne?
 

Mascot88

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Personally I think we need a boost up top as Sturridge and Origi have looked of little value. If we can't sign anyone permanently or on loan, I'd think about recalling Wilson.
Far too much made of Wilson imo. All we’re seeing is gifs of the boss goals. I’ve a few Derby supporting family who say he’s obviously got ability beyond anyone else in the side, but disappears in games and can end up being carried for long stretches.

If Derby come up, I would leave him there another season.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Far too much made of Wilson imo. All we’re seeing is gifs of the boss goals. I’ve a few Derby supporting family who say he’s obviously got ability beyond anyone else in the side, but disappears in games and can end up being carried for long stretches.

If Derby come up, I would leave him there another season.
I went on a Derby forum a couple of weeks ago and saw similar comments - mind you there were a fair few as well telling those saying that they were wrong and nobody else currently at the club could do what Wilson is doing - so daresay there is an element of truth to that.

I really think he'd have something to offer us next season, though, even if it's initially just coming off the bench to give one of our front three a break. His versatility would mean he could provide back-up to any of the three attacking positions behind the CF (assuming we stick with the 4-2-3-1 formation), and his dead-ball ability could prove a valuable weapon to have in the armoury.

But we can all see there's the need to bring in another wide attacker who can provide pace and penetration, if we don't give Wilson a shot now then we either leave ourselves short again or buy someone who'll keep him out permanently. Personally I think he deserves a chance to earn a spot in the squad.
 

ILLOK

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Far too much made of Wilson imo. All we’re seeing is gifs of the boss goals. I’ve a few Derby supporting family who say he’s obviously got ability beyond anyone else in the side, but disappears in games and can end up being carried for long stretches.

If Derby come up, I would leave him there another season.
It's not just a few boss goals though he's been consistently productive at every level of football.

7 goals in 13 for Hull and 11 in 25 for Derby is nothing to be sniffed at. He scored a bucketful for our youth sides including 10 in 12 last year before moving to Hull. He's already got a couple for Wales. I don't really accept the argument that he goes 'missing' often when he's scoring a big goal vitually every other game.

The quality of his goals demonstrate he has the technical ability to play at a higher level. With his versatility too I'd want us to give him a proper chance asap, he can refine the rest of his game here. It also offers encouragement to the other youngsters here and those who we'll try to sign in the future.
 

Mascot88

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It's not just a few boss goals though he's been consistently productive at every level of football.

7 goals in 13 for Hull and 11 in 25 for Derby is nothing to be sniffed at. He scored a bucketful for our youth sides including 10 in 12 last year before moving to Hull. He's already got a couple for Wales. I don't really accept the argument that he goes 'missing' often when he's scoring a big goal vitually every other game.

The quality of his goals demonstrate he has the technical ability to play at a higher level. With his versatility too I'd want us to give him a proper chance asap, he can refine the rest of his game here. It also offers encouragement to the other youngsters here and those who we'll try to sign in the future.
Yes, he is obviously really good, but I’m only going on what people I know who go to watch Derby week in and week out say. They doubt he is ready for Liverpool.

His goal record is great, but does he do everything else that is asked of a player in a Jurgen Klopp side? Will he even get those chances in the Premier League?
 

ILLOK

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Yes, he is obviously really good, but I’m only going on what people I know who go to watch Derby week in and week out say. They doubt he is ready for Liverpool.

His goal record is great, but does he do everything else that is asked of a player in a Jurgen Klopp side? Will he even get those chances in the Premier League?
Not enough to warrant a starting berth, compare his overall contribution to Mane and he comes up short. So does Shaqiri and he's still had a very positive impact.

The question I'd ask is does Wilson offer more than Lallana or Sturridge? I'd argue he does, even now, and their career trajectories suggest that gap will only widen.
 

RedForever2014

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Far too much made of Wilson imo. All we’re seeing is gifs of the boss goals. I’ve a few Derby supporting family who say he’s obviously got ability beyond anyone else in the side, but disappears in games and can end up being carried for long stretches.

If Derby come up, I would leave him there another season.
I agree that he's far from the finished article and definitely not a regular starter for us, but his performances against PL opposition in cup matches this season have been much better than our squad players were able to deliver in our own cup matches against PL opposition.

IMO off the bench he'd contribute more than Sturridge or Origi.

Obviously the club shouldn't be in the position where it even has to consider recalling a developing young player from a good loan, or deny young players loans next season, because well paid senior players can't deliver when called on.

I would have all our young players out on loan next season, we'd see who is good enough and would get back players much more advanced than if they play a bit part here.

But we'll have to replace Clyne, Moreno, a centre back, Lallana, maybe Milner, Origi and Sturridge, and if we can't buy senior replacements, then some young players will have to make up the squad even though it'll stunt their development and compromise our competitiveness.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Not enough to warrant a starting berth, compare his overall contribution to Mane and he comes up short. So does Shaqiri and he's still had a very positive impact.

The question I'd ask is does Wilson offer more than Lallana or Sturridge? I'd argue he does, even now, and their career trajectories suggest that gap will only widen.
I think for me Wilson is reaching or has reached the point where to round out his game and acquire the aspects Klopp looks for, he needs to be training under Klopp and training and playing alongside the players he'll be tasked with understudying, rather than a manager unconnected to Liverpool and the way we play.
 

GaryBarlow99

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I agree that he's far from the finished article and definitely not a regular starter for us, but his performances against PL opposition in cup matches this season have been much better than our squad players were able to deliver in our own cup matches against PL opposition.

IMO off the bench he'd contribute more than Sturridge or Origi.

Obviously the club shouldn't be in the position where it even has to consider recalling a developing young player from a good loan, or deny young players loans next season, because well paid senior players can't deliver when called on.

I would have all our young players out on loan next season, we'd see who is good enough and would get back players much more advanced than if they play a bit part here.

But we'll have to replace Clyne, Moreno, a centre back, Lallana, maybe Milner, Origi and Sturridge, and if we can't buy senior replacements, then some young players will have to make up the squad even though it'll stunt their development and compromise our competitiveness.
I could see us getting a player or players who can cover CB and RB or CB and LB. Few multi functional players will definitely be brought in over the summer imo. Militao (CB/RB), Lloyd Kelly (LB/CB), Sessegnon (LW, WF, LB), Werner (CF, LW, RW, WF) have been linked who can all cover these roles. I would also have Wilson replacing Lallana in the squad.
 

Mascot88

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I think for me Wilson is reaching or has reached the point where to round out his game and acquire the aspects Klopp looks for, he needs to be training under Klopp and training and playing alongside the players he'll be tasked with understudying, rather than a manager unconnected to Liverpool and the way we play.
I’d be worried that at the minute he is doing well playing regular football, and coming back to Liverpool to play ten minute cameos, and the odd cup game would set him back.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I’d be worried that at the minute he is doing well playing regular football, and coming back to Liverpool to play ten minute cameos, and the odd cup game would set him back.
It's hard for us to say definitively what the best approach for Wilson will be, and I'll agree there is a counter-argument to be made in favour of regular game-time. To that I would also say there's likely to be a difference between playing for a club riding high (albeit in a lower league) and one that will probably take a battering should they reach the PL and spend the entire season fighting relegation.

I'm fairly certain Klopp rates him though, and will do whichever he feels is best for him.

I do feel though like if we sign another wide attacker in the summer and send Wilson out on loan that's basically it for him.
 

Sweeting

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Far too much made of Wilson imo. All we’re seeing is gifs of the boss goals. I’ve a few Derby supporting family who say he’s obviously got ability beyond anyone else in the side, but disappears in games and can end up being carried for long stretches.

If Derby come up, I would leave him there another season.
As a counter point, it is harder to stay "in" the game for 90 minutes when your supporting cast is Martyn Waghorn and Mason Mount compared to Salah, Mane and Firmino.
 

wibseyred

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I’d be worried that at the minute he is doing well playing regular football, and coming back to Liverpool to play ten minute cameos, and the odd cup game would set him back.
This is where football would benefit from the dual registration system rugby league operates. This is similar to the system but your not tied for a set period of time. A club say us Liverpool signs a dual registration deal with say Derby every week Liverpool offers a choice of players they can use for that weeks games only they can take them or not they play the games and then come back. this system is in addition to the tried and tested longer term loans.
 

Red over the water

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Just posted this in another thread by mistake:

  • Wilson for Lallana (no cost to us, even if Lallana leaves on a free, improves the squad)
  • Werner for Origi (money from sales of Origi, Ings and Solanke covers the fee for Werner, or close)
  • Militao for Lovren or Matip (guess 20M cost differential)
  • Lloyd Kelly for Moreno (guess 20M cost differential)
  • Tom Heaton for Mignolet (negligible cost differential)

Something like that is very doable with a usual sort of summer budget i.e. not the bumper budget of last year which was heavily influenced by the Coutinho exit. If we did the business listed above the age of squad would come down even further, and the depth of talent would go up.

All positions would be covered. A couple more home based players would be added too.

Job's a good 'un.