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Who would you buy?



Mascot88

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@RedForever2014

Has Klopp given any indication - even a twitchy eyebrow or pursed lips in a press conference - that if there were money available he would spend it? That’s he would like more money to spend in the market?

At some point you have to have courage of your convictions and actually blame the manager for the deficiencies you identify in the squad. Because as far as I can see, he is absoluteky the main driver of those.

It’s an incredible double standard that you say Klopp’s real opinion on his squad can’t be proven either way. And yet you keep throwing around this ridiculous assertion that FSG are funding the Red Sox with Liverpool income. The books - for both Liverpool and the Red Sox - are available for you to go and prove that.

As a related side point, how much money do you think it costs to run a club like Liverpool FC? A lot of fans look at the turnover and have an expectation that our transfer spend should be approaching that sum, without considering the wage bill, the staff costs, maintaining the clubs infrastructure, transport, utilities, debt repayments, consultancy fees, etc etc etc.
 

Limiescouse

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Look at it another way. In the last 30 years, when has the single biggest upturn in our fortunes come? It's come in the year we actually went out into the market and bought at the top end on several occasions.

It's unfortunate that this only happened because we sold a top player to part fund it, but it shows what can be achieved if you invest.
I have no problem with your personal commitment to wanting to buy. What I have a problem with is your continued skewing of the facts you use to support your position. The biggest turn around in a single season we have made in recent times was in the summer of 2014, a year that saw us go from a hapless 7th to 2nd with us not being out of the title race mathematically until the final whistle of the final day. That was a summer when we made not one big singing, or even a cheap one that turned out to have a big impact. It was a bunch of middle of the road signings at best of whom only one is still here (and on the bench). The bulk of the improvement coming from players already at the club.

The best clubs do indeed tend to spend the most money, but they do so year after year after year. No one single "let go big now" type window will see us match that, and it ups the risk of us not being able to compete in the long term. What you "analysis" misses is the number of failures even the big clubs have in the transfer market, which is a better argument for us, a club who has to be cleverer in the market than City are, biding our time until the right option is available.
 

RedForever2014

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@RedForever2014

Has Klopp given any indication - even a twitchy eyebrow or pursed lips in a press conference - that if there were money available he would spend it? That’s he would like more money to spend in the market?

At some point you have to have courage of your convictions and actually blame the manager for the deficiencies you identify in the squad. Because as far as I can see, he is absoluteky the main driver of those.

It’s an incredible double standard that you say Klopp’s real opinion on his squad can’t be proven either way. And yet you keep throwing around this ridiculous assertion that FSG are funding the Red Sox with Liverpool income. The books - for both Liverpool and the Red Sox - are available for you to go and prove that.

As a related side point, how much money do you think it costs to run a club like Liverpool FC? A lot of fans look at the turnover and have an expectation that our transfer spend should be approaching that sum, without considering the wage bill, the staff costs, maintaining the clubs infrastructure, transport, utilities, debt repayments, consultancy fees, etc etc etc.
Accounting practices make a full assessment of what underpins year end reports difficult. On paper we made a post tax profit of £39m on £364m turnover to 31/5/17. That might be on a reduced turnover due to FSM cuts of revenues, and reduced profit for the same reason, or it might be inflated to take advantage of tax rule changes and book profit to offset against accrued losses before HMRC rules changed.

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/announcements/292412-lfc-announces-financial-results

The figures to 31/5/18 will be out in March I believe.

Clearly wages are the biggest P&L item, and other running costs substantial. The only real measure one can use to compare clubs is net transfer spend as a % of turnover. Personally I think it should be higher than 10%.

Look my frustration is that we are in a great position and I do believe that at our best we could beat any side in Europe. I believe the title and CL could both be won this season from our position.

I believe that would be a huge step for us, domestic champions again and at the same time achieving the status of CL winners with all its worldwide benefits. It also would make any top player looking to leave us think twice.

It would put us back firmly as a top club that wins things, not the great entertainers and glorious nearly men.

But I think we're riding our luck and relying on good fortune with injuries.

I think we could cement our prospects. We went for Fekir and are told Shaqiri or Alisson weren't bought instead.

Our forward squad isn't good enough and one quality addition could really change that. The Fekir signing basically.

That's my view.
 

koptician

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I know he's about to go to China but I wouldn't mind Arnautovic. He is getting on a bit though but he could really help push us over the line...and in a year we could sell him to China for a profit. I can just imagine how good he would be with our midfield and our fullbacks backing him. Not to mention our other wide forwards
 



Mascot88

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Accounting practices make a full assessment of what underpins year end reports difficult. On paper we made a post tax profit of £39m on £364m turnover to 31/5/17. That might be on a reduced turnover due to FSM cuts of revenues, and reduced profit for the same reason, or it might be inflated to take advantage of tax rule changes and book profit to offset against accrued losses before HMRC rules changed.

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/announcements/292412-lfc-announces-financial-results

The figures to 31/5/18 will be out in March I believe.

Clearly wages are the biggest P&L item, and other running costs substantial. The only real measure one can use to compare clubs is net transfer spend as a % of turnover. Personally I think it should be higher than 10%.

Look my frustration is that we are in a great position and I do believe that at our best we could beat any side in Europe. I believe the title and CL could both be won this season from our position.

I believe that would be a huge step for us, domestic champions again and at the same time achieving the status of CL winners with all its worldwide benefits. It also would make any top player looking to leave us think twice.

It would put us back firmly as a top club that wins things, not the great entertainers and glorious nearly men.

But I think we're riding our luck and relying on good fortune with injuries.

I think we could cement our prospects. We went for Fekir and are told Shaqiri or Alisson weren't bought instead.

Our forward squad isn't good enough and one quality addition could really change that. The Fekir signing basically.

That's my view.
The problem with your view on the finances is that it might be a cause for concern (I honestly have no idea how much the big clubs spend on transfers as a proportion of turnover - 10% seems about right to me) if we we still had Rodgers wanting more tools for his squad, or Mourinho or Guardiola, or any other manager who needs to raid the market to be successful But our manager is Jurgen Klopp, who has not only shown that he can be successful while being frugal in his transfer spend - it’s his preferred way of working. He sees his time on the training pitch - not the fax machine - the biggest factor in improving the team.

And to be fair to him, he has steadily improved us year on year, got us back to regular Champions League participation (the real platform for a title push), reached a CL final, and finally has us in pole position for a league title.

You might say imagine where we’d be if he spent a bit more money. I would say let the man work the way he wants to work. The job he is doing is exemplary.
 

CymruRed

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The only way to categorically prove if there's money to spend is if money is spent. There may be money there and Klopp's not spending it, there may not be money there, neither can be proven by you or I.

Let's be clear on something - over the long run the club's that spend the most on transfers and wages win the most trophies. United, City and Chelsea have mopped up, more financially restrained clubs like ourselves, Arsenal and Spurs have won six trophies between us since 2006.

LFC's net spending under Klopp has been £30m a season. Spending more would increase our chances of trophies.

Whether that's an Alisson or a Robertson doesn't matter, we need to add quality to the squad whatever the price paid.

Look at it another way. In the last 30 years, when has the single biggest upturn in our fortunes come? It's come in the year we actually went out into the market and bought at the top end on several occasions.

It's unfortunate that this only happened because we sold a top player to part fund it, but it shows what can be achieved if you invest.

Many of you guys constantly argue with me that spending isn't necessary, when obviously it is.

I repeat my view - our spending over the past year is a one off, largely funded by selling Coutinho, because LFC won't spend what a club of its size should be able to, because the owners prefer to extract cash via their FSM operation.

Every pound makes a difference when competing with the clubs we're competing with, an extra £20m a season under Klopp to date would mean we have that £60m 4th top class forward or further depth elsewhere.

In short, I don't expect us to be United, City or Chelsea in terms of net spending, but I expect us to be able to spend in net terms way more than mid table clubs.

Our net spending over the past three years is no more than many non top 6 PL clubs, which kind of says it all.
So what you're saying is that even though FSG,it's share holders and everyone working for them,who've increased the clubs revenue's, shelved out £300mill to buy the club, £200mill to build the main stand,new pitch,club shop and surrounding area's, plus £50mill for the new training ground,should not take a % of the increased profits out of the club and do it all for free?? if thats the case then you're deluded mate,we are being run by businessmen who want to make the club self sustainable,not an oil rich owner with deep pockets.

TBH with all that having gone on and the class of players being brought in at the same time,you having a go about us needing to spend more money on the squad (when Klopp has stated there is money to spend) and the way the club/team is improving year on year,is just plain nuts.

If you can't see the work thats been done up till now,selling players at a huge profit to make more money to buy the right players at the right price and time,to get us to the place we are at now,then my work here is done and there's just nothing more i can say to you on this debate.
 

RedForever2014

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So what you're saying is that even though FSG,it's share holders and everyone working for them,who've increased the clubs revenue's, shelved out £300mill to buy the club, £200mill to build the main stand,new pitch,club shop and surrounding area's, plus £50mill for the new training ground,should not take a % of the increased profits out of the club and do it all for free?? if thats the case then you're deluded mate,we are being run by businessmen who want to make the club self sustainable,not an oil rich owner with deep pockets.

TBH with all that having gone on and the class of players being brought in at the same time,you having a go about us needing to spend more money on the squad (when Klopp has stated there is money to spend) and the way the club/team is improving year on year,is just plain nuts.

If you can't see the work thats been done up till now,selling players at a huge profit to make more money to buy the right players at the right price and time,to get us to the place we are at now,then my work here is done and there's just nothing more i can say to you on this debate.
Profit or not, constantly selling your best players is never a strategy for sustained success.
 



Mascot88

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Profit or not, constantly selling your best players is never a strategy for sustained success.
Where has this selling idea come from?

Mascherano, Alonso and anything else pre 2010 are not relevant to the conversation. Nothing to do with FSG.

Torres was sold at the very start of 2010 after handing in a transfer request, unwilling to commit the best years of his career to a lengthy rebuild. In reality he was fucked.

Suarez was adamant on leaving, and had been on strike a season earlier to try and force a move to Arsenal. FSG even ignored his release clause. We couldn’t realistically hold him any longer.

Sterling forced is way out by making himself a toxic presence at the club. I don’t know how we keep him at that point.

Likewise, Coutinho made himself untenable. FSG resisted selling him in the summer, and then offered him more money in January. Had to sell in the end.

Those are the four big sales FSG have made, and all were forced by the players. There is nothing to suggest FSGs strategy is the sell players at peak value.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Where has this selling idea come from?

Mascherano, Alonso and anything else pre 2010 are not relevant to the conversation. Nothing to do with FSG.

Torres was sold at the very start of 2010 after handing in a transfer request, unwilling to commit the best years of his career to a lengthy rebuild. In reality he was fucked.

Suarez was adamant on leaving, and had been on strike a season earlier to try and force a move to Arsenal. FSG even ignored his release clause. We couldn’t realistically hold him any longer.

Sterling forced is way out by making himself a toxic presence at the club. I don’t know how we keep him at that point.

Likewise, Coutinho made himself untenable. FSG resisted selling him in the summer, and then offered him more money in January. Had to sell in the end.

Those are the four big sales FSG have made, and all were forced by the players. There is nothing to suggest FSGs strategy is the sell players at peak value.
Kudos to you mate for continuing to attempt a rational dialogue after all this time. I suspect you'd have rather more success applying your head to the nearest wall, though.
 

RedForever2014

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So TAA is out for a month. Currently four of our remaining seven defenders after loaning Clyne are injured or back but not yet match fit (Matip).

In midfield Gini is injured, Lallana injured (again).

That's six players out, nearly a third of our outfield squad.

We all know Lovren, Gomez and Matip are injury prone. TAA has suffered more injuries in his second season. Milner is picking up hamstring injuries more due to overuse and fatigue, Henderson is liable to spend time injured, even Gini is now doing so. Lallana gets injured getting out of bed in the morning.

Milner, Fabinho, Gomez (when fit) can cover right back, but with Lovren out we want Gomez at centre back over Matip. Fabinho and Milner are needed for midfield.

The fixture list is kinder for a month, but the warning signs are there, if the club doesn't heed them and injuries undermine the season, they can't say they weren't warned.
 

CymruRed

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Profit or not, constantly selling your best players is never a strategy for sustained success.

I never said it was a good strategy,why are you twisting the situation and what i'm saying??

All the players you're talking about weren't sold by FSG to make a profit to fill their pockets,you know full well it was the players who forced the issue to get out of the club,therefore had to be sold (which in hindsight for the majority of them,under FSG has been in our favour),so you have no arguement in that department.
 



CymruRed

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So TAA is out for a month. Currently four of our remaining seven defenders after loaning Clyne are injured or back but not yet match fit (Matip).

In midfield Gini is injured, Lallana injured (again).

That's six players out, nearly a third of our outfield squad.

We all know Lovren, Gomez and Matip are injury prone. TAA has suffered more injuries in his second season. Milner is picking up hamstring injuries more due to overuse and fatigue, Henderson is liable to spend time injured, even Gini is now doing so. Lallana gets injured getting out of bed in the morning.

Milner, Fabinho, Gomez (when fit) can cover right back, but with Lovren out we want Gomez at centre back over Matip. Fabinho and Milner are needed for midfield.

The fixture list is kinder for a month, but the warning signs are there, if the club doesn't heed them and injuries undermine the season, they can't say they weren't warned.

And still,if Klopp can't find a player,well scouted and being one of his first options,for the right price,we'll have to go with Milner,Fabinho or Camacho as cover,simple as that.

Besides,most of our defensive players are due back soon,plus with fixtures spread out in the next month,i doubt Klopps going to shit his pants and jump into the transfer market to bring in reinforcments,like your hoping he'll do.

He'll probably just bring them back to full fitness,in the meantime and buy in the summer,like he's done in the past,but i guess knowing all that,you'll still keep going on about it till january 31st and FSG are robbing us of funds.
 

RedForever2014

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And still,if Klopp can't find a player,well scouted and being one of his first options,for the right price,we'll have to go with Milner,Fabinho or Camacho as cover,simple as that.

Besides,most of our defensive players are due back soon,plus with fixtures spread out in the next month,i doubt Klopps going to shit his pants and jump into the transfer market to bring in reinforcments,like your hoping he'll do.

He'll probably just bring them back to full fitness,in the meantime and buy in the summer,like he's done in the past,but i guess knowing all that,you'll still keep going on about it till january 31st and FSG are robbing us of funds.
We should sign a quality attacking midfielder come forward to bolster the squad.

We can cover defence with midfielders but we can't have a tired unrotated midfield and weakened defence and no rotation in the forwards.
 

Minka

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We should sign a quality attacking midfielder come forward to bolster the squad.

We can cover defence with midfielders but we can't have a tired unrotated midfield and weakened defence and no rotation in the forwards.
I would go for Felipe Anderson West Ham. I think he's a fantastically creative player. Even better than Nabil Fekir.
A quick, well-rounded, and technically gifted midfielder, with a slender and diminutive but long-limbed physique, Felipe Anderson is considered a promising and talented young player. He is predominantly known for his pace, and is regarded as one of the fastest players in the modern game; although not imposing physically or in the air, he also possesses good ball control, quick feet, and excellent dribbling skills, which allow him to beat opponents in one on one situations. A tactically versatile player, he is capable of playing in several different positions due to his wide range of skills, high work-rate, and ability to both create and score goals: he has been used as a forward or as a central midfield playmaker, but has most frequently been deployed as either a winger or an attacking midfielder, due to his offensive movement and tendency to operate between the lines; he is capable of playing on either flank or through the centre of the pitch, due to his ability to cut into the middle and strike on goal, or move out to the wing to provide accurate crosses to teammates in the area. In addition to his speed, stamina, creativity and technical ability, he is known for his eye for goal, and is gifted with a powerful and accurate shot from distance with either foot, despite being naturally right-footed; he is also an accurate set-piece and penalty kick taker. He can also serve as an assist-man due to his creative ability, vision, dead-ball delivery, and eye for the final pass.
 



Red over the water

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I think we could cement our prospects. We went for Fekir and are told Shaqiri or Alisson weren't bought instead.

Our forward squad isn't good enough and one quality addition could really change that. The Fekir signing basically.

That's my view.
I'd have Shaqiri and Alisson over Fekir any day.

But I agree with the point that we are light on quality in the final third. One more top option to go with the main three and we will have the strength in depth that area needs, backed up by an emerging Brewster. I think that is precisely what we will do, but the one we want is not available until summer, so in the meantime Klopp is retaining Origi after having started to clear out the decks with Ings and Solanke. (It remains to be seen if that's how it pans out, but I think we will sign a very good attacker this summer).

As for the owners, they may well be taking a management fee off the top of various commercial deals. If so, I don't mind that as they are entitled to get a return for their investment. That said, it should all be open and above board if that's what is going on. If you have evidence of what you are saying, please produce it so we can see it too.

The trophy winners over the last two decades have mostly been Man City, Chelsea, and Man Utd. There is a strong correlation between money and success, no point arguing otherwise.

Two of the three are artificially inflated and do not offer a model to try to emulate. The other is a financial juggernaut with two decades of sustained success, under one of the best managers we've seen, all while exploiting more adeptly than others the money that flooded into the game in the Prem era. They did very well and built up a massive empire but in just a few short years since Ferguson they have slipped back to the point that these days they are scrambling to make top four and have enormous debts to manage. Their next managerial appointment could go a long way towards determining their lot for the next two decades. Get it right and they could be ensconced in the top four again, looking at titles. Get it wrong and they could be on the outside looking in, relatively speaking, for years to come.

We are building something up here and the future looks great. But it's not some off-in-the-distance future that seems more of a wing and a prayer. It seems tangible, like we are on the cusp of doing something special. It is going to be incredibly difficult, given he opposition we face, but we are going well and it's a great time to be a red.
 
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redfanman

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Those two stats are pretty vital if he wants to make a mark as a top player in our side, don’t you think? There’s a reason why fans today are loving Shaqiri, and it’s not his lip service about how much he loves playing here.
Yes, but as he isnt a forward, he isnt immediately required to be hitting those two stats. If his other stats are holding up from his move to a harder league then its a good sign that goals and assists could follow shortly. Worth remembering Gini isnt particularly big in goals or assists for us but has been considered by many fans to be having a great season this year....
 

CymruRed

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We should sign a quality attacking midfielder come forward to bolster the squad.
I totally agree mate but unless a transfer totally out of the blue happens (which i can't see happening myself),it's wait till the summer again.
 

Perth Red

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Don't think any reinforcements will be added this month but definitely feel that Studge and Origi will be going in the summer and a LW/FWD player will come in. Timo Werner would be the preference for me but I am not a scout so there undoubtedly alternatives. Also, there must be a chance to see a Fekir type player coming in to bolster the attacking line-up.
 



Semmy

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Kudos to you mate for continuing to attempt a rational dialogue after all this time. I suspect you'd have rather more success applying your head to the nearest wall, though.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. The term fiscal responsibility is lost on some, though.

The concept that we are still in the same decade that the club was in threat of administration is not to be scoffed at. But some of the internet wizards seem to believe that money grows on trees.
 

redbj

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He has got a point though.

Success correlates directly with matching there or thereabouts spending vs your rivals over a sustained period of time.

There really are no cases apart from outliers like LCFC that go against that reality.

Given that we cannot outspend at least two of our direct rivals (Roman seems to have reeled himself in a bit) then what we do need to do is spend what we can.

Can’t be arsed going through the figures but if we were to just say the 30m a season is close enough then to me, that needs to be adjusted.

Even taking in the Klopp factor of working on the training field first, that figure seems low.

For me, we should be moving heaven and earth to go large sooner rather than later......for me, again, it’s more about the bedding period than squad filling.

Let’s say it is Timo Werner Klopp is after....in a perfect world, I’d rather we pay the premium to get him early so he can hit the ground running next season.




Obviously there’s a ridiculous amount of variables so I’m certainly NOT criticising the club or manager.....but yeah, I’d like to see this form backed up with real intent.

New faces in the dressing room can backfire, but more often than not, for the really well scouted players the squad gets a great bounce from the extra challenge for a place.
 

Iluvatar

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He has got a point though.

Success correlates directly with matching there or thereabouts spending vs your rivals over a sustained period of time.

There really are no cases apart from outliers like LCFC that go against that reality.

Given that we cannot outspend at least two of our direct rivals (Roman seems to have reeled himself in a bit) then what we do need to do is spend what we can.

Can’t be arsed going through the figures but if we were to just say the 30m a season is close enough then to me, that needs to be adjusted.

Even taking in the Klopp factor of working on the training field first, that figure seems low.

For me, we should be moving heaven and earth to go large sooner rather than later......for me, again, it’s more about the bedding period than squad filling.

Let’s say it is Timo Werner Klopp is after....in a perfect world, I’d rather we pay the premium to get him early so he can hit the ground running next season.

Obviously there’s a ridiculous amount of variables so I’m certainly NOT criticising the club or manager.....but yeah, I’d like to see this form backed up with real intent.

New faces in the dressing room can backfire, but more often than not, for the really well scouted players the squad gets a great bounce from the extra challenge for a place.
Considering we are ahead of City who are currently refusing to comment on blatant abuse of FFP and UEFA are too scared to do anything about it as they have the backing of a country, I think we are performing exceptionally well..

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/15/manchester-city-refuse-comment-uefa-ffp-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

City - It's not fair we got hacked which is wrong (even if it did prove they bypassed FFP systemically for years)

We aren't backed by a sovereign fund from a country built upon Human Rights violations, or a Russian Oligarch who got rich by back handed deals on government owned assets helped by the mafia.. We are ran by business men, who are delivering on their promise to compete but live within our means.

If either pull out of either club both clubs are crippled.

We spend within our means, I'm more than happy with this self-sustainability. We have spent what is required when required, I'd love someone to prove otherwise - Alisson and Van Dijk literally disprove that we don't do this by all levels of any doubt.

p.s. Klopp disproved the notion you have to spend the most to win titles by usurping Bayern twice with Dortmund. We are blessed we have this man.
 

redbj

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I actually don’t disagree with anything you say to be honest.

It’s a tweak on what you are saying, that’s all.

I’m not looking to outspend citeh over a sustained period, but I am saying that if there was 50 plus to spend on Fekir, or 80 plus to spend on Timo, then I’d love us to spend it, as Klopps net spend is quite thrifty.

I get the type of man he is, and what he’s bringing to the club regarding training ground vs chequebook....

But if Timo Werner was to report to training first thing on Monday morning I’m 100% sure Kloppo would not storm into the bosses office in a huff.

It just feels right to go all out to top this squad up right now, not just for this season, but for next too.




But don’t confuse this with me complaining, the way the club has gone about business for the last whatever period of time it is, has me full of confidence that I don’t have to worry that any stones are being left unturned in our bid for success.

The last time I complained was when we didn’t sign VVD that window, why the hell didn’t we have a plan B........tasty fucking humble pie that....

I’m just saying, I’d love us to go big in the next two weeks. I’d be fucking chuffed.
 

Iluvatar

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I actually don’t disagree with anything you say to be honest.

It’s a tweak on what you are saying, that’s all.

I’m not looking to outspend citeh over a sustained period, but I am saying that if there was 50 plus to spend on Fekir, or 80 plus to spend on Timo, then I’d love us to spend it, as Klopps net spend is quite thrifty.

I get the type of man he is, and what he’s bringing to the club regarding training ground vs chequebook....

But if Timo Werner was to report to training first thing on Monday morning I’m 100% sure Kloppo would not storm into the bosses office in a huff.

It just feels right to go all out to top this squad up right now, not just for this season, but for next too.

But don’t confuse this with me complaining, the way the club has gone about business for the last whatever period of time it is, has me full of confidence that I don’t have to worry that any stones are being left unturned in our bid for success.

The last time I complained was when we didn’t sign VVD that window, why the hell didn’t we have a plan B........tasty fucking humble pie that....

I’m just saying, I’d love us to go big in the next two weeks. I’d be fucking chuffed.
I just think it's not as cut and dry i.e. Red Bull won't sell Werner till the summer, so we may be making those bids but just getting flat out rejected.

Klopp doesn't strike me as a "bring in a body" he will look to use youth, he'll move people into a new position, he'll tweak his tactics/formation to overcome a short term problem.

If Edwards says sorry Klopp 100% they won't sell Werner this window but you get him in summer, I think Klopp says right ok I'll work with what I have till I get what I want. Which is what I think is key - RedForever will have you believe this is lack of ambition and FSG not providing funds to Klopp, I disagree and say it's reality of the January window.