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Who would you buy?

Limiescouse

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There is clearly a frugality about the club, but that’s not the same as tight-fistedness. They will spend big on the right player, Alisson and Van Dijk are testament to that - but it needs to becthe right player.
Also note that while they look cheap now, and appear like brilliant signings, a significant portion of the fan base thought we were significantly over paying for both Mane and Salah.

Ha, no, that wasn't Dave. I've known Dave a long time and that wasn't his style. He won't be back.
Yeah, too sane to have been Dave. There is a big part of me that still thinks that despite the denials Dave was Sabu.
 

Zinedine Biscan

Spreading the word of St Igor
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Also note that while they look cheap now, and appear like brilliant signings, a significant portion of the fan base thought we were significantly over paying for both Mane and Salah.


Yeah, too sane to have been Dave. There is a big part of me that still thinks that despite the denials Dave was Sabu.
Well, he was obviously traumatised by his experience in the Big Brother house.
 

RedForever2014

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Well, you sort of are.

You keep saying that we should spend more, and your sole justification for this is your own fag packet maths on what you think we can spend (which is undoubtedly oversimplified) based on our income.

The extension of this logic is that had we paid what players are actually worth, rather pulling off a series of absolute fucking blinders in the market and academy you’d be content. As long as we’re spending every penny on the squad you’re cool.

There is clearly a frugality about the club, but that’s not the same as tight-fistedness. They will spend big on the right player, Alisson and Van Dijk are testament to that - but it needs to becthe right player.

We’ve been through periods where the club have emptied the coffers every year to get in bodies, and it never ends well. I’m glad they are willing to hold their nerve.



Apart from him saying, on multiple occasions, that it baffles him that the fans and media focus so much on money, that he prefers to find solutions from inside the club, and if he could spend oligarch money it wouldn’t be any fun to him.

I think we can be certain at this point how Klopp feels about things. He has absolute security in his job, he is adored by the fans, loved in the media, and there would be a revolt if the owners threatened him. If he wasn’t happy, he has the power to make that known.

We know of (I think) two situations where he personally has pulled the plug because he felt a player wasn’t right in terms of mentality or motivation.

I think it’s a safe assumption that when he says he prefers to work on the training pitch and look for solutions from the resources already at his disposal, he actually means it.



Where are you getting them from? Asda?

This is the Dunning-Kruger effect in full flow. You presume this is a piss of piss. Just go and buy 3-4 quality players, lads. It’s that simple.

Well, it’s not.

Firstly this might be the best squad in the country (we’ll see over the next seven games) and regardless of whether we finish top or second it will still likely have delivered one of the best league campaigns in top flight history. The pool of players out there that can improve this squad is small. And it’s gets smaller still, when you take out the ones already at top clubs who won’t sell, the ones that don’t want to come etc.

And then, the club policy is to go very deep on their analysis of the suitability of a player - not just his playing stats, but his personality, his motivations, his character, and his mentality. They are thorough - and that’s how they have had such success. They don’t panic buy. They don’t shit the bed. Fekir fails his medical? They don’t go to the second option, they wait for the right player to be available.

Everton have it easy. They are shite, and there are shitloads of players around better than they’ve got. But a lad who is at the level of Sadio Mane or Mo Salah, who is happy to play in rotation, not motivated by money, and won’t rock the boat if he’s on the bench for a key game? That’s quite a bit harder.
There are about 2500 footballers playing in the six top leagues in Europe. If Edwards and co can't find 3 or 4 who fit your profile, and are available at the right price, then they are not as good as you suggest they are.

You make many valid points, but what you fail to see is that what is required are not just the right purchases on a case by case basis, but enough of them during a certain time frame to create a team and squad that can win things consistently.

There are many analogies one could use from the business world in relation to this, but in essence the point is that if the objective is merely to acquire assets who will appreciate in value, focussing solely on sure things and low hanging fruit, then at some level our competitiveness will be compromised.
 

Mascot88

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There are about 2500 footballers playing in the six top leagues in Europe. If Edwards and co can't find 3 or 4 who fit your profile, and are available at the right price, then they are not as good as you suggest they are.
I’m sure they can identify more than that, but that really is just the start.

Do they want to come here? Would their clubs release them? What are their motivations? If they really are top class, what kind of status in the squad do they want? What is their agent like? Is there someone better we could wait for?

You make many valid points, but what you fail to see is that what is required are not just the right purchases on a case by case basis, but enough of them during a certain time frame to create a team and squad that can win things consistently.

There are many analogies one could use from the business world in relation to this, but in essence the point is that if the objective is merely to acquire assets who will appreciate in value, focussing solely on sure things and low hanging fruit, then at some level our competitiveness will be compromised.
Don’t you think this is a strange time to be questioning the club’s desire to be competitive? We’re top of the league and a safe bet for the last four out the champions league. What more would you want at this stage?

The fantastic position we are in is precisely because we have a manager and recruitment that is diligent in how they spend the team’s money.

Paul Tompkins used to do a thing about how 50% of transfer spending is wasted, such is the high risk nature of any transfer. He did this as a means of defending Rafa against his detractors, but I always used to think why don’t we just try to be a bit more careful? Recruit to a plan. Go a lot deeper into character and mentality etc. Try and get that success rate up to 75%. Or 85% even. That’s where the club is now, and that work is allowing us to go toe to toe with clubs like City and Chelsea for lads like Van Dijk and Alisson Becker.

The squad obviously needs continual improvement. But the transfer market is not the only way to do this. Gini Wijnaldum is an example of this. Last season he was pretty high on the clear out lists of many fans. The usual fantasy football bollocks of bringing in ten new players every year had Gini out the door in many cases. But Klopp doesn’t work like this, and instead worked with him and coached him, and he is now the first midfielder on the team sheet in the eyes of many fans. That’s another perfectly legitimate way to improve a team. There will be other players that Klopp can do this work with.

It isn’t all about spending money. For Klopp its about making the most of what we’ve got, using the academy, improving players and finding creative solutions, so that when we do have the chance to sign a world class talent, we don’t end up trying to haggle over a few million quid and missing out, like we used to with Rafa and Parry.
 

RedForever2014

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I’m sure they can identify more than that, but that really is just the start.

Do they want to come here? Would their clubs release them? What are their motivations? If they really are top class, what kind of status in the squad do they want? What is their agent like? Is there someone better we could wait for?



Don’t you think this is a strange time to be questioning the club’s desire to be competitive? We’re top of the league and a safe bet for the last four out the champions league. What more would you want at this stage?

The fantastic position we are in is precisely because we have a manager and recruitment that is diligent in how they spend the team’s money.

Paul Tompkins used to do a thing about how 50% of transfer spending is wasted, such is the high risk nature of any transfer. He did this as a means of defending Rafa against his detractors, but I always used to think why don’t we just try to be a bit more careful? Recruit to a plan. Go a lot deeper into character and mentality etc. Try and get that success rate up to 75%. Or 85% even. That’s where the club is now, and that work is allowing us to go toe to toe with clubs like City and Chelsea for lads like Van Dijk and Alisson Becker.

The squad obviously needs continual improvement. But the transfer market is not the only way to do this. Gini Wijnaldum is an example of this. Last season he was pretty high on the clear out lists of many fans. The usual fantasy football bollocks of bringing in ten new players every year had Gini out the door in many cases. But Klopp doesn’t work like this, and instead worked with him and coached him, and he is now the first midfielder on the team sheet in the eyes of many fans. That’s another perfectly legitimate way to improve a team. There will be other players that Klopp can do this work with.

It isn’t all about spending money. For Klopp its about making the most of what we’ve got, using the academy, improving players and finding creative solutions, so that when we do have the chance to sign a world class talent, we don’t end up trying to haggle over a few million quid and missing out, like we used to with Rafa and Parry.
I don't disagree on many levels, but I think you're too generous in your view of their objectives/motives, too willing to accept the club's stance verbatim, and unwilling to accept that the potential for success is compromised by it.

They want to be competitive, they will take whatever success comes our way, but they have quite a low net spend budget within which this must be achieved, enabling us to be competitive but compromising success.

If we win things this season it will be despite the lack of quality in the squad and because this lack of quality was not exposed because key players didn't get injured. Had we had the injuries City have had, we'd have been well off the pace.

People bang on about playing time, but there is plenty of that for players who are good enough at a club that's successful. In fact, having a few extra top quality players, of whom some would be fielded in cup competitions, would help us go further thus also creating playing time for players further down the squad pecking order.

As I said the other day, what is the point having Moreno here when he will only be picked in an absolute emergency? Ditto Sturridge and others.

I appreciate we are about to have the final clear out of pre Klopp players, but this should be another influx of Klopp players, not just the promotion of untested kids.

Can you not see that not being able to rotate burns players out? TAA is getting more injuries, Robertson is making more mistakes than last season, Bobby is clearly not the player of last season. Clyne played for two years straight under Klopp then had a year out injured. You really want VVD to end up the same?

Anyway this is academic until the summer, because only then will we see what the club does.

For me, we need to sort out the centre back injury prone issue, we have to have full backs who can be rotated (not defensively minded fill ins who can't deliver the same type of attacking play as TAA and Andy), we need a 10 who can unlock teams of all levels and we need a 4th quality forward.

We should do this via 3, 4 or 5 signings, loaning out the likes of Morgan, Grujic, Wilson, Brewster, then integrating proven and blooded youngsters 2 or 3 at a time over a couple of years as senior players move on.
 

SBYM

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Can you not see that not being able to rotate burns players out? TAA is getting more injuries, Robertson is making more mistakes than last season, Bobby is clearly not the player of last season. Clyne played for two years straight under Klopp then had a year out injured. You really want VVD to end up the same?
This is absolute horseshit and based on nothing but your feels and the agenda you push.

I'd challenge you to give us some evidence for your conclusions, which should be easy given you are so certain, however, you know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...
 

Alright Now

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This is absolute horseshit and based on nothing but your feels and the agenda you push.

I'd challenge you to give us some evidence of your easily quantifiable observations, but you know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...
What do they say? And why do you keep doing this to yourself?
 

SBYM

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And shock horror...

Did you guys know that a player's performance may fluctuate from year to year?? Who knew?

fmd...it's like those guys running around each week are human beings...

Lazy, useless pricks.
 

Mascot88

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I don't disagree on many levels, but I think you're too generous in your view of their objectives/motives, too willing to accept the club's stance verbatim, and unwilling to accept that the potential for success is compromised by it.

They want to be competitive, they will take whatever success comes our way, but they have quite a low net spend budget within which this must be achieved, enabling us to be competitive but compromising success.

If we win things this season it will be despite the lack of quality in the squad and because this lack of quality was not exposed because key players didn't get injured. Had we had the injuries City have had, we'd have been well off the pace.

People bang on about playing time, but there is plenty of that for players who are good enough at a club that's successful. In fact, having a few extra top quality players, of whom some would be fielded in cup competitions, would help us go further thus also creating playing time for players further down the squad pecking order.

As I said the other day, what is the point having Moreno here when he will only be picked in an absolute emergency? Ditto Sturridge and others.

I appreciate we are about to have the final clear out of pre Klopp players, but this should be another influx of Klopp players, not just the promotion of untested kids.

Can you not see that not being able to rotate burns players out? TAA is getting more injuries, Robertson is making more mistakes than last season, Bobby is clearly not the player of last season. Clyne played for two years straight under Klopp then had a year out injured. You really want VVD to end up the same?

Anyway this is academic until the summer, because only then will we see what the club does.

For me, we need to sort out the centre back injury prone issue, we have to have full backs who can be rotated (not defensively minded fill ins who can't deliver the same type of attacking play as TAA and Andy), we need a 10 who can unlock teams of all levels and we need a 4th quality forward.

We should do this via 3, 4 or 5 signings, loaning out the likes of Morgan, Grujic, Wilson, Brewster, then integrating proven and blooded youngsters 2 or 3 at a time over a couple of years as senior players move on.
I won’t continue to go at this, as we’re just going round in circles, but I’d suggest you google the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I’m buckling myself in in readiness for you to back peddle should we win the league or CL this year, with pearls like it was achieved despite FSG, or we got lucky (or my favourite, which you’ve used before) we nearly didn’t win it.
 

RedForever2014

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I won’t continue to go at this, as we’re just going round in circles, but I’d suggest you google the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I’m buckling myself in in readiness for you to back peddle should we win the league or CL this year, with pearls like it was achieved despite FSG, or we got lucky (or my favourite, which you’ve used before) we nearly didn’t win it.
I know all about the Dunning-Kruger effect. You've only got to look at the Labour Party front bench for notable examples.

Why do you think I spend so much time trying to help you overcome it! :)
 

RaoulDuke

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I know all about the Dunning-Kruger effect. You've only got to look at the Labour Party front bench for notable examples.

Why do you think I spend so much time trying to help you overcome it! :)
Wait until the next GE.
I‘m sure you said the same before the last one when Labour was trailing 10%+ in so called polls.
But that‘s for another thread.
 

RedForever2014

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Wait until the next GE.
I‘m sure you said the same before the last one when Labour was trailing 10%+ in so called polls.
But that‘s for another thread.
I have no doubt that this country is thick enough - and bitter enough - to put Corbyn in number 10.

And whilst the high tax regime that would ensue would affect all PL clubs, the resultant outward rush of high earners would certainly dent LFC's future chances of European glory.

I guess the pleasure at seeing middle class wealth taxed away and redistributed to lazy arses would be worth it right?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Think there is too much playing the ball not the man in this thread.

It's universally accepted that rotation helps players keep fit, fresh and firing. Helps to limit injuries and prolong careers.

Hell it's why teams have squads and substitutions were introduced into the game in the first place.

Rafa and his rotation. Ranieri and his tinkering. Are these people idiots just because you don't like the poster who is saying we need it in this thread?

I believe Klopp agrees as our depth and rotation has steadily improved in each season to the point were we have great rotation and depth in Central midfield (despite a bit of a lack on creativity) and Central defence (despite injury issues amongst some cracking choices ability wise).

I do believe our forward depth will improve this summer. It was always my belief the plan was to have had Fekir added to this current squad. And although known the injury to Ox hasn't stopped a spot being left open for him.

If Mignolet wants to move on a keeper will be brought in. If Klopp addresses CB or Lovren or Matip want to leave a new CB will be brought in. At least one starting quality attacker will be added the fabled "Coutinho replacement" who might, in reality, play nothing like Phil. Depending on decisions made over players like Origi and kids like Wilson a second attacker may be bought too.
 

RaoulDuke

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I have no doubt that this country is thick enough - and bitter enough - to put Corbyn in number 10.

And whilst the high tax regime that would ensue would affect all PL clubs, the resultant outward rush of high earners would certainly dent LFC's future chances of European glory.

I guess the pleasure at seeing middle class wealth taxed away and redistributed to lazy arses would be worth it right?
Very telling.
I guess I know everything I need to know about your views now.
 

RedForever2014

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Very telling.
I guess I know everything I need to know about your views now.
Yep, the politics of envy, though interestingly not envy of those out of sight in their mansions, just the guy over the road or round the corner who earns a bit more.

Not the politics of everyone being equal, just nobody else being better off than me.
 

Mascot88

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I have no doubt that this country is thick enough - and bitter enough - to put Corbyn in number 10.

And whilst the high tax regime that would ensue would affect all PL clubs, the resultant outward rush of high earners would certainly dent LFC's future chances of European glory.

I guess the pleasure at seeing middle class wealth taxed away and redistributed to lazy arses would be worth it right?
Corbyn has never been about taxing the middle classes. Had you read the last manifesto you would understand this. Perhaps you could research sources other than the daily mail, and keep threads like this on topic?

I know all about the Dunning-Kruger effect. You've only got to look at the Labour Party front bench for notable examples.

Why do you think I spend so much time trying to help you overcome it! :)
I’m certainly not a victim of the Dunning/Kruger effect. That is a tendency amongst people who know little to assume they are experts. My position through our long, long discussions has always been this is a lot harder than we think it is, let’s cut the guys who know what they are doing a bit of slack. I’m, if anything, the exact opposite of Dunning-Kruger.

Yep, the politics of envy, though interestingly not envy of those out of sight in their mansions, just the guy over the road or round the corner who earns a bit more.

Not the politics of everyone being equal, just nobody else being better off than me.
Come on. On topic please.

If you want to add progressive, social democratic politics to the list of subject matter you don’t understand, start a new thread for it.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I have no doubt that this country is thick enough - and bitter enough - to put Corbyn in number 10.

And whilst the high tax regime that would ensue would affect all PL clubs, the resultant outward rush of high earners would certainly dent LFC's future chances of European glory.

I guess the pleasure at seeing middle class wealth taxed away and redistributed to lazy arses would be worth it right?
At the risk of derailing a thread only a fool talks about something he doesn't have experience of. I suggest you spend some time actually in a job centre speaking to some of the "lazy arses" we get in there. It would be a real eye opener. If you can be in Merseyside I could happily see if i could arrange something. Thats me attempting to be as civil and polite as possible over something i can get too passionate over.
 

RedForever2014

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Think there is too much playing the ball not the man in this thread.

It's universally accepted that rotation helps players keep fit, fresh and firing. Helps to limit injuries and prolong careers.

Hell it's why teams have squads and substitutions were introduced into the game in the first place.

Rafa and his rotation. Ranieri and his tinkering. Are these people idiots just because you don't like the poster who is saying we need it in this thread?

I believe Klopp agrees as our depth and rotation has steadily improved in each season to the point were we have great rotation and depth in Central midfield (despite a bit of a lack on creativity) and Central defence (despite injury issues amongst some cracking choices ability wise).

I do believe our forward depth will improve this summer. It was always my belief the plan was to have had Fekir added to this current squad. And although known the injury to Ox hasn't stopped a spot being left open for him.

If Mignolet wants to move on a keeper will be brought in. If Klopp addresses CB or Lovren or Matip want to leave a new CB will be brought in. At least one starting quality attacker will be added the fabled "Coutinho replacement" who might, in reality, play nothing like Phil. Depending on decisions made over players like Origi and kids like Wilson a second attacker may be bought too.
For me the group that comprises attacking midfield, the wingers and forwards/strikers needs to be reworked. These interchange a bit and the AM's rarely play CM proper.

Oxlade, Keita, Lallana, Shaqiri, Mane, Salah, Bobby, Origi (those in contract, not Sturridge who is gone).

If we need eight, plus the four CM's and eight defenders in a twenty man senior outfield squad, ideally we'd sign a striker, number 10 and pacey wide man, letting Lallana, Origi and even Shaqiri go.
 

RedForever2014

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At the risk of derailing a thread only a fool talks about something he doesn't have experience of. I suggest you spend some time actually in a job centre speaking to some of the "lazy arses" we get in there. It would be a real eye opener. If you can be in Merseyside I could happily see if i could arrange something. Thats me attempting to be as civil and polite as possible over something i can get too passionate over.
I wasn't talking about those looking for a job, I was talking about those who don't. I nearly added public sector workers to that, but I guess you'd then join those who play the man not the ball and generally we get along just fine.
 

Mascot88

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I wasn't talking about those looking for a job, I was talking about those who don't. I nearly added public sector workers to that, but I guess you'd then join those who play the man not the ball and generally we get along just fine.
Back on topic please, or there will be points.
 

shachart

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Assuming our injured players come back, we got Ox returning to midfield, Lovren and Gomez to CB's.
With Migs, Moreno and Clyne expected to leave, and there is only so much you can expect from Milner, We need a backup LB, RB and GK.
We have been lacking this season in the AM position, Keita has not proven himself, Shaq while started brightly - fell out of grace, Lallana is showing glimpses but I would't count on him. Ox is returning and I suspect Harry Wilson will get a chance ( he is playing that position for Lampard ). Unless there is a great deal out there, i would not put this as priority.
The front three is where we are very thin. It is a miracle we have been able to go through the last 2 seasons without any major injuries to our attacking 3. ( Salah injury in the CL final did not affect us this season, and Firmino scored important goals with one eye ). Origi and Sturidge ( Sorry Danny boy ) are not good enough, they can fill in for the odd game or so, but not on a regular basis.
If we can get him ( which I think is more liekly than people think ) I would get Son from Spurs.