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Who would you buy?



Limiescouse

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I agree with this.

He appears (from the outside looking in of course) to be a real professional. Trains hard, not put a word or facial expression out of place yet. Has impressed at every playing level he's been given a chance at.

Those saying about the difference between our level and the Championship seem to be assuming that's his level. I'm not sure why?

Just because he's impressed at Championship level (the highest he's played except, arguably, for Wales) doesn't mean he can't play higher. He needs to actually be tried higher for that to be found out.
I assume at least a portion of this is directed at me as it was me who made the comment about the disparity between the leagues. However, the rest of it is not remotely what I said.

The difficulty is that next time the club are trying to sign a young player, or persuade in to sign a new contract, and are giving it the ‘work hard and put the hours in, and you’ll get chances’, the players representatives can say ‘did you say this to Harry Wilson too?’
Good kids are given a chance to show what they have during training. They then earn their shot by forcing the manager’s hand by demonstrating they are better or have more to offer than other players the manager might otherwise pick. Doing well for Derby will get him invited back to try and earn a role. It is not sufficient to be given a role with the senior squad if he doesn’t then take the next step.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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They are but also correct to admit Henderson has been more effective than expected when finally utilised further forward.
I think you are taking this out of context. Henderson did a job for us because we had no one else. Fabinho is now up to speed and Klopp is using Hendo further forward. Do you think if Fabinho got injured Henderson wouldn´t be used in the no.6?
Also you are contradicting yourself. You are saying from what I can see that Klopp is being stubborn over Wilson but wasn´t over Henderson. So what would be the reason for this? Is it personal? Does he not like Wilson? or maybe he thinks Wilson isn´t up to scratch at the moment.

Origi wasn´t getting a look in, now he´s 1st sub off the bench. Naby was used then benched and then all of a sudden was back in the first 11.

Klopp will do what he has to do.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I assume at least a portion of this is directed at me as it was me who made the comment about the disparity between the leagues. However, the rest of it is not remotely what I said.


Good kids are given a chance to show what they have during training. They then earn their shot by forcing the manager’s hand by demonstrating they are better or have more to offer than other players the manager might otherwise pick. Doing well for Derby will get him invited back to try and earn a role. It is not sufficient to be given a role with the senior squad if he doesn’t then take the next step.
I think some people are having different conversations here. I was addressing the fact that, as Mascot said, if Wilson isn't given a chance it's wrong because what else does he need to do? Well by your statement I'm guessing you believe he will be given that chance? "Doing well for Derby will get him invited back to try and earn a role. It is not sufficient to be given a role with the senior squad if he doesn’t then take the next step."
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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Klopp has never said he wouldn't be, so there is nothing to admit.
Fabinho and Henderson have both been available for many games. Klopp has only just used Henderson further forward. I don't know why he'd need to say anything? By his own admission Henderson has been asking to play further forward and Klopp has seemingly been resistant.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I think you are taking this out of context. Henderson did a job for us because we had no one else. Fabinho is now up to speed and Klopp is using Hendo further forward. Do you think if Fabinho got injured Henderson wouldn´t be used in the no.6?
Also you are contradicting yourself. You are saying from what I can see that Klopp is being stubborn over Wilson but wasn´t over Henderson. So what would be the reason for this? Is it personal? Does he not like Wilson? or maybe he thinks Wilson isn´t up to scratch at the moment.

Origi wasn´t getting a look in, now he´s 1st sub off the bench. Naby was used then benched and then all of a sudden was back in the first 11.

Klopp will do what he has to do.
Fabinho has been up to speed for months but Klopp was rotating him and Henderson. Why would me saying Henderson has been better than expected in the 8 mean he can no longer cover number 6? And im not saying Klopp is being stubborn over anything. It was a discussion over whether Klopp has to at least give Wilson a chance with us or not. My personal belief is he does have to and I think Klopp will. I'm disagreeing with people on here not Klopp who hasn't done one thing or the other yet.
 

Limiescouse

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I think some people are having different conversations here. I was addressing the fact that, as Mascot said, if Wilson isn't given a chance it's wrong because what else does he need to do? Well by your statement I'm guessing you believe he will be given that chance? "Doing well for Derby will get him invited back to try and earn a role. It is not sufficient to be given a role with the senior squad if he doesn’t then take the next step."
And the idea I keep refuting is that "given a chance" means he gets games, a position which is predicated on doing well for Derby being sufficient to be given such a role in the quad. That just isn't the way this stuff works.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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And the idea I keep refuting is that "given a chance" means he gets games, a position which is predicated on doing well for Derby being sufficient to be given such a role in the quad. That just isn't the way this stuff works.
There's never been any talk of him not training well enough. He seems to be a model pro. When he has got on the pitch he has done well at all levels. The only thing left is to see how he does at our level. Sink or swim time. Eventually we are going to have to use him or let him go. May get away with on a last loan to a premier league side but that just delays the decision to actually play him for us or sell him. If the issue, which is the only suggestion I've seen put forward, is that he can't play for us as he doesn't fit then it's pointless to loan him out again. Nobody plays quite like us so that question will still be unanswered when he comes back whether he does well or not.
 



ILLOK

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"Hendo is a brilliant player," Klopp said.

"I’m really happy that he can show that again.

"He obviously likes the position. We've not used him there for one and a half years.

"Sorry about that!

"But we needed him there. A really good performance with brilliant passes."

If Klopp can admit he was wrong over his use of his captain (an almost ever present) I don't know why posters are surprised I'm saying he needs to see what Wilson can do on the pitch before deciding?
Where did Klopp admit he was wrong?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Where did Klopp admit he was wrong?
We've not used him there for one and a half years, sorry about that. All the articles are talking about how Henderson has been asking for it. Fabinho has been established for months now.
 

redfanman

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We've not used him there for one and a half years, sorry about that. All the articles are talking about how Henderson has been asking for it. Fabinho has been established for months now.
Fabinho hasn't though, because Klopp has still picked Hendo over him in key games which suggests either his fitness or control is still not quite where Klopp wanted.

This doesn't mean he hasn't considered Hendo as a more attacking option, only that he feels Hendo has provided him with something defensively that he prioritised.
 

Limiescouse

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There's never been any talk of him not training well enough. He seems to be a model pro.
Again, not what I am saying. I am not claiming he is does not put the work in.

The only thing left is to see how he does at our level. Sink or swim time.
No. The intermediate step is to come back and demonstrate in training that he has more to offer than the likes Lallana, Origi, Shaq or anyone else we might buy in his position. He can be a model pro and have done wonderfully well in the championship and come back and not be able to demonstrate that because its a really high bar to have to pass. If that happens he will not play. And if that happens it will not mean that Klopp has not given him a chance.
 



ILLOK

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We've not used him there for one and a half years, sorry about that. All the articles are talking about how Henderson has been asking for it. Fabinho has been established for months now.
I think you're taking Klopp's self effacing remarks a bit too seriously.

I think it gets forgotten just how many injury issues Henderson has had since Klopp has been the manager. Now we have a better player for the 6 role and Henderson has proven his fitness he is getting chances in the box to box role. Klopp knows what he's doing.

Also, let's not forget that we used a 4231 for a good chunk of the season.
 

Koon

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I haven't watched a single Derby game this season, so all my thoughts are based on compilations from Wilson.

I don't think he is a playmaker, I think he is a goalscorer, from free-kicks and long range shoothing. And he is really good, would probably be the best in our squad in these aspects,, but I think he (still) lacks all the rest.

I don't see good dribbling and most important, I don't see a crispy pass or great team play from him. Also, he is not very pacey, so he would have to bring something else to the table, which should be playmaking skills (like Shaqiri) or some high energy and physicality (like Henderson/Milner).

I'm not saying by any means that Wilson isn't or won't become a great player, but I don't think he is on a PL winning team level just yet. If all he has are great long range shoothing and free kicks, these are secondary abilities, it should just complement a player's set of skills, not be his only traits.

Klopp and his staff know a lot more about him and also about Grujic, Woodburn, Curtis Jones and so on. We will see what they are planning.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Mignolet is a model pro. Does he deserve another chance?
Wilson doesn't even have a role level with Mignolet, I'm suggesting Klopp should, and will, give him a similar style back up role so Wilson can play for us before deciding he's a poor fit and selling him. Mignolet has played under Klopp. We know he is a poor fit. Wilson hasn't it's only assumption to say he's a poor fit.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Fabinho hasn't though, because Klopp has still picked Hendo over him in key games which suggests either his fitness or control is still not quite where Klopp wanted.

This doesn't mean he hasn't considered Hendo as a more attacking option, only that he feels Hendo has provided him with something defensively that he prioritised.
So why wasn't Henderson used in a more attacking CM role in the games Fabinho was trusted as the number 6 for? Surely if Klopp had those doubts over Fabinho then it'd make using Henderson, the most defensive 8 option, even more of a good idea? Klopp has admitted to viewing Henderson as purely a 6 I'm not sure why I'm getting argued with? It's simply a case of Klopp being human, improving as he goes. Open to admit the possibility of being wrong on something, trying it, learning from it and adapting in a positive way to things he didn't expect. Too many managers limit themselves by being stubborn. It's people on here pigeon holing Wilson as a player Klopp can't possibly work with. We don't know what Klopp thinks on it but I doubt he agrees.
 

Mascot88

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The point I’m making is not Wilson is good enough for LFC, or Wilson should get starts. It’s that his Derby form gives Klopp a problem. That’s it.

Wilson has gone on loan twice and done everything asked of him, he has become a favourite at Derby and got himself into the Wales squad.

Klopp now has to consider whether he brings him back and integrates him into the first team set up, sends him out on loan again, or sells him. Both of the latter two options might be right for the club and Wilson himself, but present a complexity when sending any other lads out on development loans, as they will surely look at how well Wilson did and how it did nothing for his chances of making it at Liverpool. Klopp might reason that, even if his suspicion is that Wilson is a bit lacking at the highest level he needs to find him a first team role for the benefit of every other lad he wants to send out for experience.
 



Limiescouse

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Klopp has admitted to viewing Henderson as purely a 6 I'm not sure why I'm getting argued with? It's simply a case of Klopp being human, improving as he goes. Open to admit the possibility of being wrong on something, trying it, learning from it and adapting in a positive way to things he didn't expect.
No he hasnt. He said pretty much the opposite, that he has played Hendo there because we had to for the good of the team (insinuation that he knew it was a role change, but did it because we didnt have anyone else who could play the role).
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Again, not what I am saying. I am not claiming he is does not put the work in.



No. The intermediate step is to come back and demonstrate in training that he has more to offer than the likes Lallana, Origi, Shaq or anyone else we might buy in his position. He can be a model pro and have done wonderfully well in the championship and come back and not be able to demonstrate that because its a really high bar to have to pass. If that happens he will not play. And if that happens it will not mean that Klopp has not given him a chance.
All of which Klopp has tried out on the pitch. You can't know what someone can deliver on the pitch purely from training. And this comes back to mascots original point. Klopp can't say "train hard and you'll get your chance" if he isn't actually giving players chances. As I said I think you are wrong and Klopp will give Wilson chances on the pitch for us before ending his time here
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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No he hasnt. He said pretty much the opposite, that he has played Hendo there because we had to for the good of the team (insinuation that he knew it was a role change, but did it because we didnt have anyone else who could play the role).
Except Wijnaldum, Can and Fabinho who have all played 6 when Henderson has been available but Henderson wasn't played further forward?
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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@Kopstar and @redfanman I think you are both missing the point. Klopps style and reputation is built on working hard and you'll get your chances. So far Wilson hasn't had a chance for the senior side. It doesn't matter whether he signed him or not, Wilson has done everything asked of him and passed every test he's been allowed to sit. Now if Klopp gives him a few chances next season before then letting him move on in Jan or next summer for being a poor fit, then that's fine. But to not give him a chance to see if he can adapt to Klopps needs during at least a 6 month period says that it isn't quite true about "work hard and you'll get your chance"! Klopp was reluctant to use Henderson further forward in his 3 man midfield and has admitted he had it wrong. Just because a player doesn't seem like they'd be able to suit a role doesn't mean they definitely won't be able to suit it. The only way to know if Wilson can play in a Klopp side is to give him a few chances. If it doesn't work he can move on. But to not give him the chance it seems a bit wrong.
Klopp has admitted to viewing Henderson as purely a 6 I'm not sure why I'm getting argued with? Err can you show me this ARD? You´re getting argued with cos loads don´t agree with your point and you´re making things up.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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All of which Klopp has tried out on the pitch. You can't know what someone can deliver on the pitch purely from training. And this comes back to mascots original point. Klopp can't say "train hard and you'll get your chance" if he isn't actually giving players chances. As I said I think you are wrong and Klopp will give Wilson chances on the pitch for us before ending his time here
You actually can.
Go on give me a job. I can be your area manager.
You´ve never been an area manager, you´ve never never even been a depot manager.
Yeah but I was a good warehouseman, I worked really hard and I was never late.
Yep but you need other qualities and I don´t see those in you.
It´s not fair.

This is basically what you are saying. Klopp might or might not give hime a few games for us but if he doesn´t then it does´t mean Klopp was out of order.
 



Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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The point I’m making is not Wilson is good enough for LFC, or Wilson should get starts. It’s that his Derby form gives Klopp a problem. That’s it.

Wilson has gone on loan twice and done everything asked of him, he has become a favourite at Derby and got himself into the Wales squad.

Klopp now has to consider whether he brings him back and integrates him into the first team set up, sends him out on loan again, or sells him. Both of the latter two options might be right for the club and Wilson himself, but present a complexity when sending any other lads out on development loans, as they will surely look at how well Wilson did and how it did nothing for his chances of making it at Liverpool. Klopp might reason that, even if his suspicion is that Wilson is a bit lacking at the highest level he needs to find him a first team role for the benefit of every other lad he wants to send out for experience.
I think the opposite. Going on loan is a way of putting yourself in the shop window if the club don´t think you have what it takes for LFC.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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You actually can.
Go on give me a job. I can be your area manager.
You´ve never been an area manager, you´ve never never even been a depot manager.
Yeah but I was a good warehouseman, I worked really hard and I was never late.
Yep but you need other qualities and I don´t see those in you.
It´s not fair.

This is basically what you are saying. Klopp might or might not give hime a few games for us but if he doesn´t then it does´t mean Klopp was out of order.
It is nothing like that circumstance though is it?
 

ILLOK

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So why wasn't Henderson used in a more attacking CM role in the games Fabinho was trusted as the number 6 for?
It's only very recently that Fabinho has been trusted as the number 6 in the deep role, he barely played early on in the season and then we changed to a 4231 formation. We reverted back to it after the palace game when we played Leicester at home (might have been West Ham the game after, can't remember exactly), we've played 14 (or 13!) games since then. Henderson missed 2 games through injury and was an unused sub for the Fulham game, just after returning from the injury. So let's look at the other 11.

Henderson had to play RB vs Leicester due to injuries.
Fabinho had to play CB vs Munich due to injuries.

9 left.

Henderson was chosen over of Fabinho for Tottenham and Munich (A).

7 left.

Henderson played in midfield ahead of Fabinho against United, Everton, Porto and Chelsea. He came off the bench against Watford, Burnley and Southampton and played ahead of Fabinho.

Seems about right to me. Klopp knows what Henderson is capable of, there will be nothing in his recent performances that has surprised him.