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Who would you buy?

Anfield rd Dreamer

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No he hasnt. He said pretty much the opposite, that he has played Hendo there because we had to for the good of the team (insinuation that he knew it was a role change, but did it because we didnt have anyone else who could play the role).
Except Wijnaldum, Can and Fabinho who have all played 6 when Henderson has been available but Henderson wasn't played further forward?
 


Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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@Kopstar and @redfanman I think you are both missing the point. Klopps style and reputation is built on working hard and you'll get your chances. So far Wilson hasn't had a chance for the senior side. It doesn't matter whether he signed him or not, Wilson has done everything asked of him and passed every test he's been allowed to sit. Now if Klopp gives him a few chances next season before then letting him move on in Jan or next summer for being a poor fit, then that's fine. But to not give him a chance to see if he can adapt to Klopps needs during at least a 6 month period says that it isn't quite true about "work hard and you'll get your chance"! Klopp was reluctant to use Henderson further forward in his 3 man midfield and has admitted he had it wrong. Just because a player doesn't seem like they'd be able to suit a role doesn't mean they definitely won't be able to suit it. The only way to know if Wilson can play in a Klopp side is to give him a few chances. If it doesn't work he can move on. But to not give him the chance it seems a bit wrong.
Klopp has admitted to viewing Henderson as purely a 6 I'm not sure why I'm getting argued with? Err can you show me this ARD? You´re getting argued with cos loads don´t agree with your point and you´re making things up.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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All of which Klopp has tried out on the pitch. You can't know what someone can deliver on the pitch purely from training. And this comes back to mascots original point. Klopp can't say "train hard and you'll get your chance" if he isn't actually giving players chances. As I said I think you are wrong and Klopp will give Wilson chances on the pitch for us before ending his time here
You actually can.
Go on give me a job. I can be your area manager.
You´ve never been an area manager, you´ve never never even been a depot manager.
Yeah but I was a good warehouseman, I worked really hard and I was never late.
Yep but you need other qualities and I don´t see those in you.
It´s not fair.

This is basically what you are saying. Klopp might or might not give hime a few games for us but if he doesn´t then it does´t mean Klopp was out of order.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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The point I’m making is not Wilson is good enough for LFC, or Wilson should get starts. It’s that his Derby form gives Klopp a problem. That’s it.

Wilson has gone on loan twice and done everything asked of him, he has become a favourite at Derby and got himself into the Wales squad.

Klopp now has to consider whether he brings him back and integrates him into the first team set up, sends him out on loan again, or sells him. Both of the latter two options might be right for the club and Wilson himself, but present a complexity when sending any other lads out on development loans, as they will surely look at how well Wilson did and how it did nothing for his chances of making it at Liverpool. Klopp might reason that, even if his suspicion is that Wilson is a bit lacking at the highest level he needs to find him a first team role for the benefit of every other lad he wants to send out for experience.
I think the opposite. Going on loan is a way of putting yourself in the shop window if the club don´t think you have what it takes for LFC.
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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You actually can.
Go on give me a job. I can be your area manager.
You´ve never been an area manager, you´ve never never even been a depot manager.
Yeah but I was a good warehouseman, I worked really hard and I was never late.
Yep but you need other qualities and I don´t see those in you.
It´s not fair.

This is basically what you are saying. Klopp might or might not give hime a few games for us but if he doesn´t then it does´t mean Klopp was out of order.
It is nothing like that circumstance though is it?
 

ILLOK

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So why wasn't Henderson used in a more attacking CM role in the games Fabinho was trusted as the number 6 for?
It's only very recently that Fabinho has been trusted as the number 6 in the deep role, he barely played early on in the season and then we changed to a 4231 formation. We reverted back to it after the palace game when we played Leicester at home (might have been West Ham the game after, can't remember exactly), we've played 14 (or 13!) games since then. Henderson missed 2 games through injury and was an unused sub for the Fulham game, just after returning from the injury. So let's look at the other 11.

Henderson had to play RB vs Leicester due to injuries.
Fabinho had to play CB vs Munich due to injuries.

9 left.

Henderson was chosen over of Fabinho for Tottenham and Munich (A).

7 left.

Henderson played in midfield ahead of Fabinho against United, Everton, Porto and Chelsea. He came off the bench against Watford, Burnley and Southampton and played ahead of Fabinho.

Seems about right to me. Klopp knows what Henderson is capable of, there will be nothing in his recent performances that has surprised him.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Klopp has admitted to viewing Henderson as purely a 6 I'm not sure why I'm getting argued with? Err can you show me this ARD? You´re getting argued with cos loads don´t agree with your point and you´re making things up.

I know people who weren't there are trying to second guess Klopps words and put different meanings to it but the journalists there (who get to hear the questions he responds to which, for some bizarre reason, never get put in the articles) all seem unified in understanding that Jurgen has been playing Henderson as a number 6 despite Jordan's wishes to play further forward.
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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It's only very recently that Fabinho has been trusted as the number 6 in the deep role, he barely played early on in the season and then we changed to a 4231 formation. We reverted back to it after the palace game when we played Leicester at home (might have been West Ham the game after, can't remember exactly), we've played 14 (or 13!) games since then. Henderson missed 2 games through injury and was an unused sub for the Fulham game, just after returning from the injury. So let's look at the other 11.

Henderson had to play RB vs Leicester due to injuries.
Fabinho had to play CB vs Munich due to injuries.

9 left.

Henderson was chosen over of Fabinho for Tottenham and Munich (A).

7 left.

Henderson played in midfield ahead of Fabinho against United, Everton, Porto and Chelsea. He came off the bench against Watford, Burnley and Southampton and played ahead of Fabinho.

Seems about right to me. Klopp knows what Henderson is capable of, there will be nothing in his recent performances that has surprised him.
Klopps own words are 18 months. I'm not sure why you're now trying to argue with Klopp himself over the timeframe he has kept Henderson as a number 6 for?
 

ILLOK

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Klopps own words are 18 months. I'm not sure why you're now trying to argue with Klopp himself over the timeframe he has kept Henderson as a number 6 for?
I answered your question that was specifically about Fabinho, he has not been here for 18 months.

You must be on a massive windup or you're getting confused with all the different arguments you're having.


I know people who weren't there are trying to second guess Klopps words and put different meanings to it but the journalists there (who get to hear the questions he responds to which, for some bizarre reason, never get put in the articles) all seem unified in understanding that Jurgen has been playing Henderson as a number 6 despite Jordan's wishes to play further forward.
Mate, come on, self awareness..
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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I know people who weren't there are trying to second guess Klopps words and put different meanings to it but the journalists there (who get to hear the questions he responds to which, for some bizarre reason, never get put in the articles) all seem unified in understanding that Jurgen has been playing Henderson as a number 6 despite Jordan's wishes to play further forward.
Ok. I'm not arguing that Jordan wanted to play further forward and Klopp has played as a 6.

I'm saying Klopp played as a 6 for the last 18 mths as he was the best we had and not because he didn't think Jordan could play further forward.
IMO Jordan is now playing further forward because Klopp now trust Fsb in the 6 role on his own not because Klopp has suddenly seen the light that Jordan can play further forward.
 

Limiescouse

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The point I’m making is not Wilson is good enough for LFC, or Wilson should get starts. It’s that his Derby form gives Klopp a problem. That’s it.
What you actually said was that he would need to get some games for it to qualify as being given a chance. And not getting those games would send a bad signal to other kids. The latter is not a real problem, because it is predicated on an unreasonable expectation.

If Wilson came in and tore everyone a new one in training and still didnt get games, because Klopp was distrusting of young kids, then he would have reason to complain and it would be a warning sign to other kids (those stories travel). But we are not remotely there, and does anyone really think that is how Klopp operates?

All of which Klopp has tried out on the pitch. You can't know what someone can deliver on the pitch purely from training. And this comes back to mascots original point. Klopp can't say "train hard and you'll get your chance" if he isn't actually giving players chances. As I said I think you are wrong and Klopp will give Wilson chances on the pitch for us before ending his time here
Players get picked in a meritocratic manner. The manager does not just throw players out there blind to see what happens. He know the players, he sees them every day, and the ones he puts out are the ones who show him they are the best options. So a kid, even a talented one, can train as hard as he likes, but if there are 5 or 6 players in his position showing more than he him then he isn’t going to play.

I am also trying to not get frustrated at what is now a persistent shooting down of arguments I haven’t made. I have not once claimed that Wilson will not games. In fact, I have not made any judgment on how he will fare. All I have done is argue that it is naïve and misguided to think a manager has to give kids games to have been seen to have given them a “chance.”

Jurgen has been playing Henderson as a number 6 despite Jordan's wishes to play further forward.
No one is denying that. That does not mean that Klopp had previously viewed him as a player who could only play 6 or even was best at 6 as you have been claiming. What he has done is view him as someone who it was best for LIVERPOOL if he played at 6. Now Fab is settled, a slow process, the situation is seemingly different.
 

Red over the water

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Wilson's form at Derby has given Klopp food for thought, but I wouldn't class it as a problem, as such. Arguably the player can come in and be a squad member for us, and if he kicks on from that, great. But on the other hand, maybe Klopp will place more of an emphasis on other qualities he wants e.g. speed and physicality. At that point Wilson's form for Derby should at least mean we will get a reasonable fee for him, and it will be up to the player to carve out a good career for himself.

Generally speaking, for an elite team that is battling for the Prem and the CL, we have good form for giving young players a chance. It is rarified air at our level, so most won't make it, even good ones. You have to be better than good.

Will it mean that the well will start to dry up in terms of young talent who will come here? Not for me it won't. It's not just about working hard. That is a prerequisite. But it is working hard and also having the talent and skillset the manager needs for the first team set up.

Wilson has worked hard and done everything required of him. No complaints there at all.
Does he have what the manager needs for the first team set up?
We'll find out soon enough! If he does, he stays here. If he doesn't, we sell him.

We're Top Gun now. Only the best of the best youngsters need apply.
 



CymruRed

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Wilson's form at Derby has given Klopp food for thought, but I wouldn't class it as a problem, as such. Arguably the player can come in and be a squad member for us, and if he kicks on from that, great. But on the other hand, maybe Klopp will place more of an emphasis on other qualities he wants e.g. speed and physicality. At that point Wilson's form for Derby should at least mean we will get a reasonable fee for him, and it will be up to the player to carve out a good career for himself.

Generally speaking, for an elite team that is battling for the Prem and the CL, we have good form for giving young players a chance. It is rarified air at our level, so most won't make it, even good ones. You have to be better than good.

Will it mean that the well will start to dry up in terms of young talent who will come here? Not for me it won't. It's not just about working hard. That is a prerequisite. But it is working hard and also having the talent and skillset the manager needs for the first team set up.

Wilson has worked hard and done everything required of him. No complaints there at all.
Does he have what the manager needs for the first team set up?
We'll find out soon enough! If he does, he stays here. If he doesn't, we sell him.

We're Top Gun now. Only the best of the best youngsters need apply.

I don't think Wilson was coming back next season,regardless of how well he was doing at Derby this season.Having a great season in the Championship is one thing,doing it in the Premiership on a regular basis is another.

I'm sure reports mentioned that we had a deal set up with Leicester City to loan him to them for the whole of next season,so Klopp could have a real look at him in the Prem but seeing as Rodgers has now taken over,Klopps pulled the plug on the deal,as he didn't like the way he took young players on loan in the past at Celtic and then let them rot in the reserves or on the bench,without giving them any game time.
 

Jamie91

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Next season we should be looking to compete in all competitions. I think we will see a fee outgoings with improved options coming in.

Alisson
Mignolet

TAA
Gomez (3rd choice cb too)

VVD
De Light (70mil)
Matip

Robertson
Sessegnon (30mil)

Fabinho
Henderson
Wijnaldum
Keita
Milner
Ox



Shaqiri
Brandt (30mil)

Salah
Brewster

Firmino
Werner (30mil)

Mane
Origi

Looking a bit light at CB but include Gomez along with Fabinho as cover.
160 mil output but we should receive around 70mil for Lallana,Sturridge,Lovren and Clyne.
 

Iluvatar

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I agree with @ILLOK from another thread after thinking about it. Why would we go for Werner and stunt Brewsters route to the 1st team? Firmino is nigh on indestructible.. In fact our front 3 rarely get injured. So Brewster will get the right amount of minutes to allow for small breaks.

Our 1st team is basically there or there about, I can't see a single position we need to significantly upgrade so what are we looking for?

Has to be a left back for backup/rotation with Robertson, a wide goal scoring player who can rotate with Mane/Salah and then depth for the no.10/8 role.

I also think Klopp likes players who can play in multiple positions for the most part, it's rare we have specialists bar central defenders and fullbacks.

So who should be buy?

Sessegnon - Covers Left Back and Left Forward
Lloyd Kelly - Covers Left Back and Left Center Half
Brandt - Covers no.8/10 and Left/Right Forward
Hudson-Odoi - Left/Right Forward

and for me that's it, job done.

I'd let Sturridge, Moreno, Lovren, Lallana, Shaqiri, Milner (now this would be more that he may want a last swansong at Leeds if they come up) all leave. Leaving us with a squad as follows;

GK - Alisson, Mignolet
LB - Robertson, Sessegnon, Kelly
LCB - Van Dijk, Kelly
RCB - Gomez, Matip
RB - Alexander-Arnold, Gomez, Fabinho
DM - Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum
CM - Keita, Henderson, Wijnaldum
AM - Oxlade, Brandt, Henderson
LF - Mane, Sessegnon, Hudson-Odoi
CF - Firmino, Brewster, Salah
RF - Salah, Hudson-Odoi, Brandt

Can't really see a weakness with that squad and plenty of minutes for all players.
 



Limiescouse

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The club clearly have massive expectations for Brewster. He is however an 18 year old without a single senior appearance to his name. Werner, while possibly over hyped has been one of the best non-Bayern players in the league for a couple of seasons and a German international. I dont think it is reasonable to avoid looking at players like Werner because of what Brewster may become.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I agree with @ILLOK from another thread after thinking about it. Why would we go for Werner and stunt Brewsters route to the 1st team? Firmino is nigh on indestructible.. In fact our front 3 rarely get injured. So Brewster will get the right amount of minutes to allow for small breaks.

Our 1st team is basically there or there about, I can't see a single position we need to significantly upgrade so what are we looking for?

Has to be a left back for backup/rotation with Robertson, a wide goal scoring player who can rotate with Mane/Salah and then depth for the no.10/8 role.

I also think Klopp likes players who can play in multiple positions for the most part, it's rare we have specialists bar central defenders and fullbacks.

So who should be buy?

Sessegnon - Covers Left Back and Left Forward
Lloyd Kelly - Covers Left Back and Left Center Half
Brandt - Covers no.8/10 and Left/Right Forward
Hudson-Odoi - Left/Right Forward

and for me that's it, job done.

I'd let Sturridge, Moreno, Lovren, Lallana, Shaqiri, Milner (now this would be more that he may want a last swansong at Leeds if they come up) all leave. Leaving us with a squad as follows;

GK - Alisson, Mignolet
LB - Robertson, Sessegnon, Kelly
LCB - Van Dijk, Kelly
RCB - Gomez, Matip
RB - Alexander-Arnold, Gomez, Fabinho
DM - Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum
CM - Keita, Henderson, Wijnaldum
AM - Oxlade, Brandt, Henderson
LF - Mane, Sessegnon, Hudson-Odoi
CF - Firmino, Brewster, Salah
RF - Salah, Hudson-Odoi, Brandt

Can't really see a weakness with that squad and plenty of minutes for all players.
I agree with a lot of your thinking (especially as Mane and Salah are also options centrally) however I think Sessegnon and Hudson-Odoi or Sancho would be enough.

I'd buy a CB if Lovren and/or Matip want to move on but not Kelly, someone better suited to be 3rd choice challenging Gomez for 2nd choice.

I'd keep Shaqiri for now and use Wilson to flesh out our options too.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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The club clearly have massive expectations for Brewster. He is however an 18 year old without a single senior appearance to his name. Werner, while possibly over hyped has been one of the best non-Bayern players in the league for a couple of seasons and a German international. I dont think it is reasonable to avoid looking at players like Werner because of what Brewster may become.
I'd prefer;

CF: Firmino, Mane, Salah, Brewster
Wings: Salah, Mane, Hudson-Odoi/Sancho

Than;
CF: Firmino, Werner, Mane, Salah, Brewster
Wings: Salah, Mane, Werner

If it's a straight choice between adding a CF that can play wide or a wide player allowing Mane and Brewster to play CF more I'd go with the wide player.
 

ILLOK

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The club clearly have massive expectations for Brewster. He is however an 18 year old without a single senior appearance to his name. Werner, while possibly over hyped has been one of the best non-Bayern players in the league for a couple of seasons and a German international. I dont think it is reasonable to avoid looking at players like Werner because of what Brewster may become.
You could apply this logic against giving a chance to any youth player.

If the club think Brewster is good enough we shouldn't be buying a player of the exact same style, not a player like Werner who definitely isn't a significantly better talent.

Hss Werner been one of the best non-Bayern in the previous two seasons? 13 goals last season and 14 so far this. Decent return but nothing special for a player who isn't too impressive in the build up phase.

He had a great 16/17 but since then he doesn't appear to have pulled up any trees. Looking at the players who are putting up similar numbers (Kramaric, Poulson, Haller etc) I don't think we'd want any of them either.
 

Limiescouse

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Probably. There are plenty of players who would excite me more than Werner, but it is unlikely that we avoid bringing in another player for the front line because we're ready to have an 18 year old with the same amount of premier league experience as I do to be our #4 for the front 3. Bringing in that additional player should not be seen as a step that will inhibit the development of Brewster.
 



ILLOK

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Probably. There are plenty of players who would excite me more than Werner, but it is unlikely that we avoid bringing in another player for the front line because we're ready to have an 18 year old with the same amount of premier league experience as I do to be our #4 for the front 3. Bringing in that additional player should not be seen as a step that will inhibit the development of Brewster.
Nobody is arguing Brewster should be that player, it's just that Werner shouldn't either. He's neither good enough or the right type, imo.
 

Iluvatar

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The club clearly have massive expectations for Brewster. He is however an 18 year old without a single senior appearance to his name. Werner, while possibly over hyped has been one of the best non-Bayern players in the league for a couple of seasons and a German international. I dont think it is reasonable to avoid looking at players like Werner because of what Brewster may become.
I don't think it is that black and white. This season (and I missed him off the list) we've moved Mane and/or Salah central and used Origi on the flanks. I think this again will continue next season and is also a viable rotation for Firmino.

So long story short, I think the back up to Firmino is actually Salah or Mane, but Brewster gets minutes (end of games, cup games etc.)

What I think ILLOK means is buying Werner means any minutes Brewster would have got will go to Werner (otherwise why buy him?)

p.s. I think Origi may be linked to Hudson-Odoi, if Chelsea refuse to sell and we let him wait out his contract we retain Origi for another year and let him go when Odoi comes in (who is a vastly better player).
 

redfanman

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I don't think it is that black and white. This season (and I missed him off the list) we've moved Mane and/or Salah central and used Origi on the flanks. I think this again will continue next season and is also a viable rotation for Firmino.

So long story short, I think the back up to Firmino is actually Salah or Mane, but Brewster gets minutes (end of games, cup games etc.)

What I think ILLOK means is buying Werner means any minutes Brewster would have got will go to Werner (otherwise why buy him?)

p.s. I think Origi may be linked to Hudson-Odoi, if Chelsea refuse to sell and we let him wait out his contract we retain Origi for another year and let him go when Odoi comes in (who is a vastly better player).
I dont think it is accurate to say that minutes that could go to Brewster would go to Werner (or another). Even ignoring possible injuries to any of the front 3, we may see ourselves advancing in domestic cups or just wanting to swap things round to keep players fresh - so moving the front 3 into different roles becomes more of an option and less a need. In addition, if Origi were to stay - do we know which Origi we would see? The one who like a couple of years ago has an impact, or the one we saw in between that people couldnt wait to see the back of?