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Who would you buy?

Flobs

FADA
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Apr 20, 2015
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"Not lacking in the slightest" is very close or the same as saying we can't improve.

If theres nothing we lack, even slightly, then what we've got is as good as it gets.

Henderson isn't anywhere near as bad as he looks in the deeper role where more on the functionality of the team revolves around him, but that he looks better in the advanced role doesn't mean he's good enough. He's better yes, but not the standard we should be looking at.

In a nutshell, are you saying there aren't players who are a significant upgrade on Henderson in that role?

It took a long time for a lot of our fans to realise he wasnt good enough for the midfield role. This seems like groundhog day.
There are very few players who would be a slight up grade on Henderson!
Please do list the players who you think would be a significant upgrade on Henderson. Just so that I can have a laugh.
 

Mousecat

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I don't think the situation is as dire as @Mousecat makes it out to be.
It's not dire. It's got huge potential. But we've got the issue of a potentially career threatening injury and a largely unknown commodity, albeit one with big big potential.. making up 2 out of the 4 players you're saying are klopps grand plan.

I think keita, fabinho, ox, and gini, all playing at full potential, is pretty much as good as anything out there. I think its a midfield with fantastic potential. But... we haven't had it this season and there's been nobody in reserve to rotate who bring in nearly the same qualities. The work rate of Henderson and Milner is so great that they give us at least a good enough foundation for other players to win us games. They don't give us the ability to either win or control play themselves.

There are games this season we absolutely had to grind out.. where we showed other abilities to win games. But you can't rely on those things long term. The law of averages dictates in the end and when city won by a close score, they had almost compete control of possession. When we won close, often timed it really could have gone the other way. The nature of our games in that ruin in was certainly not the same. 1 point might have separated us, but if we crossed the line 1 second behind them in a race, then they had gears to spare and we were flat out.

What we did this season was monumental. It really shouldn't have been this close. But that was due to a reliance on other things than our technique and control of situations. We fought like champions and really if not for city's money we'd be champs. No doubt. But that's reason why the situation is anything but direin my mind. If we can do what we did, with there still being major room for improvement in our midfield, then there's potential for this Liverpool team to break records in the future.
 

Mousecat

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There are very few players who would be a slight up grade on Henderson!
Please do list the players who you think would be a significant upgrade on Henderson. Just so that I can have a laugh.
??

What do you mean? You don't think we can upgrade Henderson?
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
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"Not lacking in the slightest" is very close or the same as saying we can't improve.

If theres nothing we lack, even slightly, then what we've got is as good as it gets.

Henderson isn't anywhere near as bad as he looks in the deeper role where more on the functionality of the team revolves around him, but that he looks better in the advanced role doesn't mean he's good enough. He's better yes, but not the standard we should be looking at.

In a nutshell, are you saying there aren't players who are a significant upgrade on Henderson in that role?

It took a long time for a lot of our fans to realise he wasnt good enough for the midfield role. This seems like groundhog day.
Groundhog day?

I guess some of you will try to create some drama where there is none. It's a boring time right now, in fairness.

Good enough for what? I've aired my doubts about Henderson plenty of times but when I saw him steaming around the pitch against Barca on one leg, dominating the likes of Rakitic and Vidal I can't say those doubts were at the forefront of my mind.

There are better players out there in that role, though I suspect fewer than you believe (for us). He's got 5 assists in his 10 games in that role recently and has impressed with the way he's led the side. If he can continue this level he's an asset, not a hinderance. He's a well rounded player in the box to box role - tracks back, puts his foot in, contributes at the top end of the pitch and works as hard as anybody else. Not a flashy player but the midfield just works with him in that role.

If our midfield was as troublesome as you're trying to make out we must be very lucky to get 97 points and make it to the CL final. Some criticisms and discussions are there to be had but let's keep them in perspective.

P.s. as for the pedantry about the "not lacking in the slightest comment", we've scored 27 in our last 10, beating the likes of Chelsea, Barca, Porto, Wolves. Only game we failed to score in was Barca away, a game we created plenty of chances in. There genuinely hasn't been much room for improvement in those performances.
 
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The Elusive 19th

TIA Youth Team
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Messages
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Henderson isn't anywhere near as bad as he looks in the deeper role where more on the functionality of the team revolves around him, but that he looks better in the advanced role doesn't mean he's good enough. He's better yes, but not the standard we should be looking at.

In a nutshell, are you saying there aren't players who are a significant upgrade on Henderson in that role?

It took a long time for a lot of our fans to realise he wasnt good enough for the midfield role. This seems like groundhog day.
Welcome back chicagored.:wave:
Hope you have been doing well during your hiatus.
 

Mascot88

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And I'd agree with you. You can see glimpses of it when the right players are together. But... how often has it been and is it reliable?

Those players you named are perfect for their positions, but that's it. There's a big drop off in quality and no ability to rotate without a major compromise
Jordan Henderson told me to tell you he wants a word.
 

Mousecat

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My main point is being twisted a lot.

The midfield isn't troublesome, or dire..

It's hard working, incredibly energetic, very difficult to play against. I've got no reservations in our abilities in that sense and you can throw Milner in with Henderson too in that regard. They're both good enough and then some for those things.

But when it comes to controlling possession, and general technique, let's just say this side of their game isn't as strong as the other.

The game isn't always the same. Within 90 minutes we might be playing to control, or we might be playing to chase.

When it comes to controlling possession, we don't do it well and klopp has alluded to it plenty of times.

And really this is something you've got to face in the modern game. The likes of Bernardo Silva and de bruyne will chase and hustle as hard as anyone, AND have world class technique to go with it. That's the barometer in the league right now, fortunately for us.
 

Mascot88

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My take on the midfield is that I don’t think there is much we need to do, especially if we want to be able to switch between a 433 and a 4231.

We need a Defensive Midfielder. That’s Fabinho, and he is as good as anyone out there.

We need two ball carrying midfielders. That’s Keita and Ox, and they are as good as anyone out there. They can also play further forward.

We need two creative attacking midfielders, and we only have one in Shaqiri. We need to get another one, and a really good one at that. They can also play further forward.

We need two good all rounders - lads who can do a bit of everything. They can cover the deep position, they can do the ball carrying role or play a bit of attacking midfield. They are not going to be the world’s best at any of that, but their strength is their versatility. That’s Henderson and Wijnaldum.

That gives us seven players for (usually) three positions, fantastic balance (esp if the tbc attacking mid is predominantly left sided).

If that’s our midfield, then I don’t think there is much to do to improve on it. It’s as good as it gets.
 

Mousecat

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P.s. as for the pedantry about the "not lacking in the slightest comment"
It's not pedantry to ask you to qualify the main point of your post.

And in regards to what he lacks, I've already told you. Technique, IQ and shooting ability.

Maybe they're not that important to you, or you think in this day and age, regardless of the evidence to the contrary, that it's an either or choice between attribute, like were choosing between him and Dimitar berbatov. In which case fine, lets agree to disagree. In the end klopp will decide if Henderson's a long term first teamed or not. And thats good enough for me, because so far everything he's done had been spot on
 

Mousecat

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My take on the midfield is that I don’t think there is much we need to do, especially if we want to be able to switch between a 433 and a 4231.

We need a Defensive Midfielder. That’s Fabinho, and he is as good as anyone out there.

We need two ball carrying midfielders. That’s Keita and Ox, and they are as good as anyone out there. They can also play further forward.

We need two creative attacking midfielders, and we only have one in Shaqiri. We need to get another one, and a really good one at that. They can also play further forward.

We need two good all rounders - lads who can do a bit of everything. They can cover the deep position, they can do the ball carrying role or play a bit of attacking midfield. They are not going to be the world’s best at any of that, but their strength is their versatility. That’s Henderson and Wijnaldum.

That gives us seven players for (usually) three positions, fantastic balance (esp if the tbc attacking mid is predominantly left sided).

If that’s our midfield, then I don’t think there is much to do to improve on it. It’s as good as it gets.
True. On the condition that Chamberlain and keitas fitness can be relied on long term.

Big jump that. From this point anyway.
 

KYRed18

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It's not dire. It's got huge potential. But we've got the issue of a potentially career threatening injury and a largely unknown commodity, albeit one with big big potential.. making up 2 out of the 4 players you're saying are klopps grand plan.

I think keita, fabinho, ox, and gini, all playing at full potential, is pretty much as good as anything out there. I think its a midfield with fantastic potential. But... we haven't had it this season and there's been nobody in reserve to rotate who bring in nearly the same qualities. The work rate of Henderson and Milner is so great that they give us at least a good enough foundation for other players to win us games. They don't give us the ability to either win or control play themselves.

There are games this season we absolutely had to grind out.. where we showed other abilities to win games. But you can't rely on those things long term. The law of averages dictates in the end and when city won by a close score, they had almost compete control of possession. When we won close, often timed it really could have gone the other way. The nature of our games in that ruin in was certainly not the same. 1 point might have separated us, but if we crossed the line 1 second behind them in a race, then they had gears to spare and we were flat out.

What we did this season was monumental. It really shouldn't have been this close. But that was due to a reliance on other things than our technique and control of situations. We fought like champions and really if not for city's money we'd be champs. No doubt. But that's reason why the situation is anything but direin my mind. If we can do what we did, with there still being major room for improvement in our midfield, then there's potential for this Liverpool team to break records in the future.

You and RedForever must be close friends outside of the forum. You don't lead the league in clean sheets by "not being in control." We averaged 60% possession this year in the PL versus City averaging 65%. That comes out to 4.5 minutes a game or 171 minutes a year. We averaged 8.1 shots against per game (1 shot every 6.67 minutes the other team had possession) they averaged 6.3 (1 per 9.3 minutes the other team had possession). What I am getting at here is even if we had "City's complete control" we'd only face 1 less shot per game. Additionally, Alisson had 18 more saves than Ederson this year, meaning he had an extra save every other game, which still doesn't add up to us being less in control (If Alisson had to save an extra shot per game over Ederson then I could see the point.)

Bottom line, the problem is more rhetoric induced rather than factually based.
 
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Mousecat

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Doubt we'd risk it.

World class technical midfielder will be on our shopping list this summer. Got to be.
 

Prolix

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[...]
In a nutshell, are you saying there aren't players who are a significant upgrade on Henderson in that role?
[...]
Of course there are. But that would likely be the most expensive type of upgrade for us to make.
 

Mascot88

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Doubt we'd risk it.

World class technical midfielder will be on our shopping list this summer. Got to be.
I don’t think we’re short of technical ability in midfield. If we do anything in midfield, I think it will be adding attacking guile where we struggled to break teams down.

As others have said, the stats don’t suggest we can’t control games. Quite the opposite.

Beside’s which, the difference between us and City’s world class midfield of can’t be bettered technical footballers was 1 point. With margins like that, Klopp will be looking at the training pitch rather than the market. You don’t need to spend 50m to make a marginal improvement.
 

Mascot88

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Then it's a question of ambition. I doubt we're lacking that
I think it’s a question of management.

A gaffer like Mourinho or Pep would happily burn £50m of the club’s money for a marginal upgrade on a position. I don’t think Klopp would. He would back himself to get what wants on the training pitch.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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My main point is being twisted a lot.

The midfield isn't troublesome, or dire..

It's hard working, incredibly energetic, very difficult to play against. I've got no reservations in our abilities in that sense and you can throw Milner in with Henderson too in that regard. They're both good enough and then some for those things.

But when it comes to controlling possession, and general technique, let's just say this side of their game isn't as strong as the other.

The game isn't always the same. Within 90 minutes we might be playing to control, or we might be playing to chase.

When it comes to controlling possession, we don't do it well and klopp has alluded to it plenty of times.

And really this is something you've got to face in the modern game. The likes of Bernardo Silva and de bruyne will chase and hustle as hard as anyone, AND have world class technique to go with it. That's the barometer in the league right now, fortunately for us.
No, nothing was twisted. You just explained yourself better.
 

Mousecat

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Beside’s which, the difference between us and City’s world class midfield of can’t be bettered technical footballers was 1 point.
Yea but the points total isn't a reflection of any one specific part of the team.

That's like them saying they finished above us, so Van Dijk can't be much of an upgrade on Kompany...
 

Mousecat

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Yea but the points total isn't a reflection of any one specific part of the team.

That's like them saying they finished above us, so Van Dijk can't be much of an upgrade on Kompany...
Oh and reading that again just made me think.. they could be having the exact same conversation on their boards about Kompany and you could parallel all the same back and forth

"yea our defence is so dire that we only won the domestic treble and are stupidly unlucky not to be in the cl final"

"Van Dijk is so much better than Vince that we only conceded a goal more in a 38 game season"

I mean they're all valid points if you imply that any one basic fact must automatically validate a point.

But it doesn't.

Van Dijk clearly is a big improvement on Kompany, and that fact isn't diminished or disproved by the basic results which were achieved by the team as a whole.

In many ways its the physical reverse of my point about our midfield...

Their control of possession, especially from leading positions, mitigates a lot of the shortcomings of Kompany as a defender. Whereas our stupidly solid centre half mitigates a lot of the shortcomings in our midfield.

Less so since fabinho though, who, for me, could be as good as it gets in that role. Great signing.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Of course they would, and klopp would have them in a heartbeat. Seriously, who do you think he'd turn away in favour of Milner and Henderson?

Keep a straight face while you type.

He's worked incredibly with what he's got, it doesn't means it's what he ultimately wants.
It's ridiculous to think a top class manager would hand pick those two to fill any role in a first choice midfield, from all of the talent in the world game.

He absolutely will have identified the lack of creativity and control in the midfield and he will know that of every area of our team, that's where we need more.

He will also know that this is the only area left where there's a big difference in strength between us and city
Face 100% straight: Klopp understands football better than you.

You're being very limited on what a central midfield must include for a team to be successful. Klopp knows (and is successfully showing) there are different ways to set teams up.

Our CM do more of the work City's FBs do and our FBs do more of the work their CMs do just as one example.

Yes if Fernandinho, De Bruyne and David Silva lined up in our CM it's a Fifa 2019 wet dream and many pants would be made a mess of when the team sheet went out. During the game however we'd be cut through like a hot knife through butter. We'd have 7 players running round, getting in each other's way, all trying to get in the same areas in their 3rd of the pitch whilst they simply launch the ball long and Fernandinho and our CBs get pulled everywhere trying to cover 2rds of the pitch.

You missed the main point of my post in that you need to review what the midfield is doing and how well they are doing it. Trying to rate them on tasks they aren't there to carry out is going to give the wrong answers. You wouldn't use goals as a metric to rate Alonso or creative passing as a way to rate Mascherano so you shouldn't be looking at our CMs playmaking skills to determine how good they are.

Coutinho (who you clearly rate) didn't fit well in this side despite his obvious talents and skill in the areas you seem to be looking for. There's a reason why we became more fluid without him. It's also the reason Shaqiri doesn't fit very well in 433.

Give Klopp talented players like De Bruyne and David Silva and he will find a way to use them. He won't just play them instead of our current CMs in the same formation/tactics as we are set up in now.
 

Mousecat

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Only time will prove or disprove your view and mine on what klopp views as his ideal setup.

Let's see what he does this summer.

And i think what you just said about De Bruyne and Fernandinho was silly. Cut through like butter my arse. Swap Fernandinho for fabinho and de Bruyne for ox... I'm sure our intention is to have players of similar qualities on the field at the same time and im sure we won't have it all ripped apart by the kind of long ball which turns players like Virgil van dijk into blithering idiots.

Silly tactical analysis that mate.

Let's just see how this one plays out now eh. I've got me eggs and basket...
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I personally think most of our creativity stems from the system we play (mainly the forcing of mistakes high up the pitch which we then capitalise on), and the system works because of the players we have performing in it.

For all the talk of a lack of creativity, we've had no problem scoring an amazing amount of goals for at least two seasons now. While our forwards are brilliant, we aren't solely reliant on their brilliance to score, it's the system that allows them to perform to that level.

I'd be quite surprised if this summer we tried to fix what ain't broke.