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Who would you buy?

Mousecat

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Nov 25, 2014
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Yea but the points total isn't a reflection of any one specific part of the team.

That's like them saying they finished above us, so Van Dijk can't be much of an upgrade on Kompany...
Oh and reading that again just made me think.. they could be having the exact same conversation on their boards about Kompany and you could parallel all the same back and forth

"yea our defence is so dire that we only won the domestic treble and are stupidly unlucky not to be in the cl final"

"Van Dijk is so much better than Vince that we only conceded a goal more in a 38 game season"

I mean they're all valid points if you imply that any one basic fact must automatically validate a point.

But it doesn't.

Van Dijk clearly is a big improvement on Kompany, and that fact isn't diminished or disproved by the basic results which were achieved by the team as a whole.

In many ways its the physical reverse of my point about our midfield...

Their control of possession, especially from leading positions, mitigates a lot of the shortcomings of Kompany as a defender. Whereas our stupidly solid centre half mitigates a lot of the shortcomings in our midfield.

Less so since fabinho though, who, for me, could be as good as it gets in that role. Great signing.
 


Anfield rd Dreamer

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Of course they would, and klopp would have them in a heartbeat. Seriously, who do you think he'd turn away in favour of Milner and Henderson?

Keep a straight face while you type.

He's worked incredibly with what he's got, it doesn't means it's what he ultimately wants.
It's ridiculous to think a top class manager would hand pick those two to fill any role in a first choice midfield, from all of the talent in the world game.

He absolutely will have identified the lack of creativity and control in the midfield and he will know that of every area of our team, that's where we need more.

He will also know that this is the only area left where there's a big difference in strength between us and city
Face 100% straight: Klopp understands football better than you.

You're being very limited on what a central midfield must include for a team to be successful. Klopp knows (and is successfully showing) there are different ways to set teams up.

Our CM do more of the work City's FBs do and our FBs do more of the work their CMs do just as one example.

Yes if Fernandinho, De Bruyne and David Silva lined up in our CM it's a Fifa 2019 wet dream and many pants would be made a mess of when the team sheet went out. During the game however we'd be cut through like a hot knife through butter. We'd have 7 players running round, getting in each other's way, all trying to get in the same areas in their 3rd of the pitch whilst they simply launch the ball long and Fernandinho and our CBs get pulled everywhere trying to cover 2rds of the pitch.

You missed the main point of my post in that you need to review what the midfield is doing and how well they are doing it. Trying to rate them on tasks they aren't there to carry out is going to give the wrong answers. You wouldn't use goals as a metric to rate Alonso or creative passing as a way to rate Mascherano so you shouldn't be looking at our CMs playmaking skills to determine how good they are.

Coutinho (who you clearly rate) didn't fit well in this side despite his obvious talents and skill in the areas you seem to be looking for. There's a reason why we became more fluid without him. It's also the reason Shaqiri doesn't fit very well in 433.

Give Klopp talented players like De Bruyne and David Silva and he will find a way to use them. He won't just play them instead of our current CMs in the same formation/tactics as we are set up in now.
 

Mousecat

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Only time will prove or disprove your view and mine on what klopp views as his ideal setup.

Let's see what he does this summer.

And i think what you just said about De Bruyne and Fernandinho was silly. Cut through like butter my arse. Swap Fernandinho for fabinho and de Bruyne for ox... I'm sure our intention is to have players of similar qualities on the field at the same time and im sure we won't have it all ripped apart by the kind of long ball which turns players like Virgil van dijk into blithering idiots.

Silly tactical analysis that mate.

Let's just see how this one plays out now eh. I've got me eggs and basket...
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I personally think most of our creativity stems from the system we play (mainly the forcing of mistakes high up the pitch which we then capitalise on), and the system works because of the players we have performing in it.

For all the talk of a lack of creativity, we've had no problem scoring an amazing amount of goals for at least two seasons now. While our forwards are brilliant, we aren't solely reliant on their brilliance to score, it's the system that allows them to perform to that level.

I'd be quite surprised if this summer we tried to fix what ain't broke.
 



Mousecat

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Personally I think if we do get deeper in quality in midfield, Milner is free to backup at fullback. Despite what I've said about his limitations as a first choice midfielder, he's a fantastic utility player
 

Red over the water

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I think the midfield is fine. In Keita and Ox we have at least two players we will get more out of next season than this season, and they do their best work taking it to the opposition. Fabinho has come to the fore as our best defensive midfielder, but that only happened after half the season or more had gone by, but next year he will be fully integrated and up to speed from the get go. Henderson has been doing great in the box to box role, rather than having a more disciplined role which is now taken by Fabinho.

What I'm saying is that next season we should be looking to get even more from the group of midfielders we already have at the club. We also have good options out on loan, in Wilson and Grujic, who to date haven't been able to get near our team.

If we buy a new midfielder this summer, say a creative and attacking type, that's more than fine by me, but I'm not necessarily expecting it, as I see priorities elsewhere.
 

Flobs

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Personally I think if we do get deeper in quality in midfield, Milner is free to backup at fullback. Despite what I've said about his limitations as a first choice midfielder, he's a fantastic utility player
Having a go at Milner now. The best penalty kick taker I have ever seen!

Come on prove to me you know something about football and LFC for that matter.
 



MW2833

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The likes of Bernardo Silva and de bruyne will chase and hustle as hard as anyone, AND have world class technique to go with it. That's the barometer in the league right now, fortunately for us.
Henderson is the captain of the team in the CL final successive times
The other two are not or never have been in the CL final
 

Mousecat

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Come on then surprise me with a list of players better than Henderson.
If a list of players better than Henderson will surprise you, it'll probably be past your bedtime by the time you're done reading it.

And i don't want to get you in trouble
 

Scott Jones

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Anyone chatting shit about Henderson after the season he and LFC have just had is taking the fucking piss,if Klopp had to sell a midfielder then i think Henderson would be last on the list to sell,Klopp loves him so what does that say.

Let's buy Mbappe.
 



Mousecat

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Anyone chatting shit about Henderson after the season he and LFC have just had is taking the fucking piss,if Klopp had to sell a midfielder then i think Henderson would be last on the list to sell,Klopp loves him so what does that say.

Let's buy Mbappe.
Sell him?

Who?

Where?
 

Mousecat

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It's funny this convo... a bit surreal even. I remember when I originally signed up here, telling people he wasnt right for the midfield. No-one would have it then. Was pretty much thrown out... wasn't an option for discussion. Fast forward a couple of years and that opinion was universal.

Now, i believe anyway, people have got better-round syndrome....

Sometimes in a boxing match, you'll find that if a fighter is being outclassed for a long period, he'll get the benefit of the scoring in a round where he does better than he did before.

It's not necessarily a round he won, and if that round was judged objectively, or say it came at the beginning of the fight, he might still have lost the round... albeit by a closer margin.

Its the contrast between what went prior which gives a flattering glow to what came next. You can see the influence it has when see the commentators scorecards after a good round. Even if, really, he probably didn't win.

Henderson came in for so much stick in that deeper role, that it's difficult for the stark contrast in his current role not to have an influential effect on people's opinion.

When you combine this with the type of player he is, such a hard worker, so emotional, and obviously fiercely committed to the team, it's hard for it not to incur an emotional response which incorporates all the prior criticism that he endured , and use it to validate over the top praise of him.

The objective and admittedly unpopular truth is that, while the positional change has freed him from being constantly exposed to his biggest weaknesses, and allowed him to express his main strengths, there are still some limitations which mean that he isn't an adequate replacement for other positions in the midfield.

Those limitations are still there. They haven't gone away.

My point from the beginning is simply that Liverpool can't rely on Henderson or Milner to do the job of players who have attributes that they simply don't have, and which are fundamental to a top class midfield.

They have attributes which can complement those, no doubt. But the key areas where they are weakest, are those exact areas which will impact us if are any point we are missing them.

Make no mistake, whatever your feelings are on these two players, they're not proper replacement if someone like keita, fabinho or ox is out injured. Where keitas ability to turn and face play, or transition from defence to attack might mitigate to some degree fabinho being out, or Chamberlain s ability to break lines and transition through midfield to attack might mitigate keitas absence, neither Henderson or Milner can provide those two things specifically and our midfield becomes static and heavily reliant on the fullbacks to provide creativity.

We need someone who is, in order to unlock rotation options for that central and creative midfield position. It's critical to next season.

I'm sure you'll see klopp feels the same way in this transfer window.
 
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KYRed18

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It's funny this convo... a bit surreal even. I remember when I originally signed up here, telling people he wasnt right for the midfield. No-one would have it then. Was pretty much thrown out... wasn't an option for discussion. Fast forward a couple of years and that opinion was universal.

Now, i believe anyway, people have got better-round syndrom

Make no mistake, whatever your feelings are on these two players, they're not proper replacement if someone like keita, fabinho or ox is out injured. Where keitas ability to turn and face play, or transition from defence to attack might mitigate to some degree fabinho being out, or Chamberlain s ability to break lines and transition through midfield to attack might mitigate keitas absence, neither Henderson or Milner can provide those two things specifically and our midfield becomes static and heavily reliant on the fullbacks to provide creativity.
You're allowed to have your opinion here bud, but if you are going to sit on a high horse and say "mine is better than yours" people are not going to discuss with you. You attack, but ask others to not attack you and play victim. You dissent, but then get upset when others disagree with what you say. You're just difficult. I edited the length of your post for a particular reason,

1) To highlight the mentality you have that we are all out to get you because you don't rate Henderson. We are not, you don't have to rate him, just don't get mad if others do.

2) We fully rely on our fullbacks to create in our system. Tactically, we set up like that. Our wingers play inverted and fill pockets of space between narrowing the defense creating space for fullbacks to move up the field and create chances from dangerous angles. Our midfield is literally there to win the ball back after we lose it during our "gegenpress." I am far from the most tactically inclined person on this site; however, like Pep's team, we have a clear identity on how we play.
 

Mousecat

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Someone who can move with the ball, create, hold possession. First touch and technique and the ability to face play and bypass a press. doesn't matter which exact position.
 



Mousecat

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You're allowed to have your opinion here bud, but if you are going to sit on a high horse and say "mine is better than yours" people are not going to discuss with you. You attack, but ask others to not attack you and play victim. You dissent, but then get upset when others disagree with what you say. You're just difficult. I edited the length of your post for a particular reason,

1) To highlight the mentality you have that we are all out to get you because you don't rate Henderson. We are not, you don't have to rate him, just don't get mad if others do.

2) We fully rely on our fullbacks to create in our system. Tactically, we set up like that. Our wingers play inverted and fill pockets of space between narrowing the defense creating space for fullbacks to move up the field and create chances from dangerous angles. Our midfield is literally there to win the ball back after we lose it during our "gegenpress." I am far from the most tactically inclined person on this site; however, like Pep's team, we have a clear identity on how we play.
This post is more emotional than any of mine.

At this point im saying (and have said already) lets see what happens in this window. Its not relevant what you or I think. I get that.

Leave the victim bollocks to the city players on the team bus. That's their slang mate, not ours.
 

ILLOK

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Someone who can move with the ball, create, hold possession. First touch and technique and the ability to face play and bypass a press. doesn't matter which exact position.
Okay, well we've got a couple of players who can do that already, so that helps. I agree, the midfield looks better with a player like that in it.

Where I disagree is your idea that there's no space for Henderson as an 8, or that's it's 'critical' he's replaced by that type of player. We've just gone throughout this season without Chamberlain and with Keita struggling for a lot of it, yet we've reached 97 points and a CL final. Our results and performances with Henderson in said role have been fantastic, so why he would be classed as 'inadequate' is beyond me. Had you said not 'ideal', I could have understood and that would have led to better discourse.

So no, it's definitely not 'critical' at all. Where this discussion loses interest is your determination to make this some major issue. It just isn't.

The issue is balancing the two 8s. Wijanldum and Milner as a pair didn't work well at all this season, and that was the main issue we had with our midfield. Most of our other midfield '3' combinations have looked pretty good. With Chamberlain coming back that should allow us an even better balanced group to pick from.

Another classy midfielder being signed would be excellent, I don't think you would find any opposition here against that. But the current group have done well too, and it's a little silly to suggest otherwise.
 

Mousecat

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Okay, well we've got a couple of players who can do that already, so that helps. I agree, the midfield looks better with a player like that in it.

Where I disagree is your idea that there's no space for Henderson as an 8, or that's it's 'critical' he's replaced by that type of player. We've just gone throughout this season without Chamberlain and with Keita struggling for a lot of it, yet we've reached 97 points and a CL final. Our results and performances with Henderson in said role have been fantastic, so why he would be classed as 'inadequate' is beyond me. Had you said not 'ideal', I could have understood and that would have led to better discourse.

So no, it's definitely not 'critical' at all. Where this discussion loses interest is your determination to make this some major issue. It just isn't.

The issue is balancing the two 8s. Wijanldum and Milner as a pair didn't work well at all this season, and that was the main issue we had with our midfield. Most of our other midfield '3' combinations have looked pretty good. With Chamberlain coming back that should allow us an even better balanced group to pick from.

Another classy midfielder being signed would be excellent, I don't think you would find any opposition here against that. But the current group have done well too, and it's a little silly to suggest otherwise.
I hear ya, but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Lets see how the summer pans out. I'll be surprised if we don't invest in the midfield.

When I say critical, I mean thats the area which very nearly cost us a challenge at all this season... other areas of the team over achieved and compensated. That's my opinion. You can't rely on over clocking other areas of a machine as a long term plan.

Obviously you and others don't see That this is how it panned out, whereas I do. To me its clear actually.

History has proven forumites to be comprehensively wrong on the most fundamental of things in the past and it will do so again. Maybe me, maybe you lot. I'm happy with my own vision of the game and how it's lined up with our managers views over time, so lets see where it goes from here.

That's what it's all about eh? We stake our bets in the form of an opinion and then see what happens. Pretty cool I think. No need to carry it further than that. Nobody's gonna prove anything here and now.
 
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KYRed18

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The only thing you got was annoyed mate.

We disagree on this one thing. Not a big problem. There might be stuff we agree on in future.

Bye
It's not a problem at all. I didn't need to say that last line you quoted, hence I deleted the post. I do apologize about that. I'm really not bothered to be honest. People in Kentucky don't get bothered when there's bourbon in their future.