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Who would you buy?



KYRed18

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
182
It's funny this convo... a bit surreal even. I remember when I originally signed up here, telling people he wasnt right for the midfield. No-one would have it then. Was pretty much thrown out... wasn't an option for discussion. Fast forward a couple of years and that opinion was universal.

Now, i believe anyway, people have got better-round syndrom

Make no mistake, whatever your feelings are on these two players, they're not proper replacement if someone like keita, fabinho or ox is out injured. Where keitas ability to turn and face play, or transition from defence to attack might mitigate to some degree fabinho being out, or Chamberlain s ability to break lines and transition through midfield to attack might mitigate keitas absence, neither Henderson or Milner can provide those two things specifically and our midfield becomes static and heavily reliant on the fullbacks to provide creativity.
You're allowed to have your opinion here bud, but if you are going to sit on a high horse and say "mine is better than yours" people are not going to discuss with you. You attack, but ask others to not attack you and play victim. You dissent, but then get upset when others disagree with what you say. You're just difficult. I edited the length of your post for a particular reason,

1) To highlight the mentality you have that we are all out to get you because you don't rate Henderson. We are not, you don't have to rate him, just don't get mad if others do.

2) We fully rely on our fullbacks to create in our system. Tactically, we set up like that. Our wingers play inverted and fill pockets of space between narrowing the defense creating space for fullbacks to move up the field and create chances from dangerous angles. Our midfield is literally there to win the ball back after we lose it during our "gegenpress." I am far from the most tactically inclined person on this site; however, like Pep's team, we have a clear identity on how we play.
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Someone who can move with the ball, create, hold possession. First touch and technique and the ability to face play and bypass a press. doesn't matter which exact position.
 



Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
You're allowed to have your opinion here bud, but if you are going to sit on a high horse and say "mine is better than yours" people are not going to discuss with you. You attack, but ask others to not attack you and play victim. You dissent, but then get upset when others disagree with what you say. You're just difficult. I edited the length of your post for a particular reason,

1) To highlight the mentality you have that we are all out to get you because you don't rate Henderson. We are not, you don't have to rate him, just don't get mad if others do.

2) We fully rely on our fullbacks to create in our system. Tactically, we set up like that. Our wingers play inverted and fill pockets of space between narrowing the defense creating space for fullbacks to move up the field and create chances from dangerous angles. Our midfield is literally there to win the ball back after we lose it during our "gegenpress." I am far from the most tactically inclined person on this site; however, like Pep's team, we have a clear identity on how we play.
This post is more emotional than any of mine.

At this point im saying (and have said already) lets see what happens in this window. Its not relevant what you or I think. I get that.

Leave the victim bollocks to the city players on the team bus. That's their slang mate, not ours.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
15,743
Someone who can move with the ball, create, hold possession. First touch and technique and the ability to face play and bypass a press. doesn't matter which exact position.
Okay, well we've got a couple of players who can do that already, so that helps. I agree, the midfield looks better with a player like that in it.

Where I disagree is your idea that there's no space for Henderson as an 8, or that's it's 'critical' he's replaced by that type of player. We've just gone throughout this season without Chamberlain and with Keita struggling for a lot of it, yet we've reached 97 points and a CL final. Our results and performances with Henderson in said role have been fantastic, so why he would be classed as 'inadequate' is beyond me. Had you said not 'ideal', I could have understood and that would have led to better discourse.

So no, it's definitely not 'critical' at all. Where this discussion loses interest is your determination to make this some major issue. It just isn't.

The issue is balancing the two 8s. Wijanldum and Milner as a pair didn't work well at all this season, and that was the main issue we had with our midfield. Most of our other midfield '3' combinations have looked pretty good. With Chamberlain coming back that should allow us an even better balanced group to pick from.

Another classy midfielder being signed would be excellent, I don't think you would find any opposition here against that. But the current group have done well too, and it's a little silly to suggest otherwise.
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Okay, well we've got a couple of players who can do that already, so that helps. I agree, the midfield looks better with a player like that in it.

Where I disagree is your idea that there's no space for Henderson as an 8, or that's it's 'critical' he's replaced by that type of player. We've just gone throughout this season without Chamberlain and with Keita struggling for a lot of it, yet we've reached 97 points and a CL final. Our results and performances with Henderson in said role have been fantastic, so why he would be classed as 'inadequate' is beyond me. Had you said not 'ideal', I could have understood and that would have led to better discourse.

So no, it's definitely not 'critical' at all. Where this discussion loses interest is your determination to make this some major issue. It just isn't.

The issue is balancing the two 8s. Wijanldum and Milner as a pair didn't work well at all this season, and that was the main issue we had with our midfield. Most of our other midfield '3' combinations have looked pretty good. With Chamberlain coming back that should allow us an even better balanced group to pick from.

Another classy midfielder being signed would be excellent, I don't think you would find any opposition here against that. But the current group have done well too, and it's a little silly to suggest otherwise.
I hear ya, but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Lets see how the summer pans out. I'll be surprised if we don't invest in the midfield.

When I say critical, I mean thats the area which very nearly cost us a challenge at all this season... other areas of the team over achieved and compensated. That's my opinion. You can't rely on over clocking other areas of a machine as a long term plan.

Obviously you and others don't see That this is how it panned out, whereas I do. To me its clear actually.

History has proven forumites to be comprehensively wrong on the most fundamental of things in the past and it will do so again. Maybe me, maybe you lot. I'm happy with my own vision of the game and how it's lined up with our managers views over time, so lets see where it goes from here.

That's what it's all about eh? We stake our bets in the form of an opinion and then see what happens. Pretty cool I think. No need to carry it further than that. Nobody's gonna prove anything here and now.
 
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KYRed18

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
182
The only thing you got was annoyed mate.

We disagree on this one thing. Not a big problem. There might be stuff we agree on in future.

Bye
It's not a problem at all. I didn't need to say that last line you quoted, hence I deleted the post. I do apologize about that. I'm really not bothered to be honest. People in Kentucky don't get bothered when there's bourbon in their future.
 



Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
572
I hear ya, but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Lets see how the summer pans out. I'll be surprised if we don't invest in the midfield.

When I say critical, I mean thats the area which very nearly cost us a challenge at all this season... other areas of the team over achieved and compensated. That's my opinion. You can't rely on over clocking other areas of a machine as a long term plan.

Obviously you and others don't see That this is how it panned out, whereas I do. To me its clear actually.

History has proven forumites to be comprehensively wrong on the most fundamental of things in the past and it will do so again. Maybe me, maybe you lot. I'm happy with my own vision of the game and how it's lined up with our managers views over time, so lets see where it goes from here.

That's what it's all about eh? We stake our bets in the form of an opinion and then see what happens. Pretty cool I think. No need to carry it further than that. Nobody's gonna prove anything here and now.
Yep you're right mousepratt. See you in another couple of years.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
13,923
I hear ya, but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Lets see how the summer pans out. I'll be surprised if we don't invest in the midfield.

When I say critical, I mean thats the area which very nearly cost us a challenge at all this season... other areas of the team over achieved and compensated. That's my opinion. You can't rely on over clocking other areas of a machine as a long term plan.

Obviously you and others don't see That this is how it panned out, whereas I do. To me its clear actually.

History has proven forumites to be comprehensively wrong on the most fundamental of things in the past and it will do so again. Maybe me, maybe you lot. I'm happy with my own vision of the game and how it's lined up with our managers views over time, so lets see where it goes from here.

That's what it's all about eh? We stake our bets in the form of an opinion and then see what happens. Pretty cool I think. No need to carry it further than that. Nobody's gonna prove anything here and now.
Those managers who have consistently rated Henderson as one of our most important players?
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Those managers who have consistently rated Henderson as one of our most important players?
Yea those ones.

They're always consistently rating stuff. Anything they get their hands on... They're rating it...

CONSISTENTLY
 



Red over the water

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Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,383
We might sign a good, creative/attacking midfielder. If we do, great!

I think we have two of them who do their best work through the middle taking it to the opposition, and we didn't see anything of one of them this past season (Ox) and barely anything (Keita) of the other.

My best guess is Klopp will see what's what next season integrating the two of them more fully into his side.
 

JibJab

Mo Mane Mo' Problems
Joined
May 24, 2016
Messages
834
Hendo is a much better 8 than he was when he was slotted into the 6. Our worst performances in the midfield this year came with the Milner-Hendo-Wijnaldum axis. But Fabinho taking over the 6 made a big difference from my point of view.

I still think we could use a true #10, but I have hope that Ox will add a level of dynamism to our midfield that was lacking a points this season.
 



Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
572
Hendo was used a 6 by Klopp because he actually had the most football IQ and discipline to do what Klopp wanted in that role. Was it ideal? No. Did Klopp think it ideal? No cos he bought Fabinho. Did Henderson think he was the greatest No. 6 in history? No. He did the job to a high standard but as soon as he knew there was someone better? Banging on the manager's door to let him play his bestt position. So let's not rewrite history eh?
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
572
It's funny this convo... a bit surreal even. I remember when I originally signed up here, telling people he wasnt right for the midfield. No-one would have it then. Was pretty much thrown out... wasn't an option for discussion. Fast forward a couple of years and that opinion was universal.

Now, i believe anyway, people have got better-round syndrome....

Sometimes in a boxing match, you'll find that if a fighter is being outclassed for a long period, he'll get the benefit of the scoring in a round where he does better than he did before.

It's not necessarily a round he won, and if that round was judged objectively, or say it came at the beginning of the fight, he might still have lost the round... albeit by a closer margin.

Its the contrast between what went prior which gives a flattering glow to what came next. You can see the influence it has when see the commentators scorecards after a good round. Even if, really, he probably didn't win.

Henderson came in for so much stick in that deeper role, that it's difficult for the stark contrast in his current role not to have an influential effect on people's opinion.

When you combine this with the type of player he is, such a hard worker, so emotional, and obviously fiercely committed to the team, it's hard for it not to incur an emotional response which incorporates all the prior criticism that he endured , and use it to validate over the top praise of him.

The objective and admittedly unpopular truth is that, while the positional change has freed him from being constantly exposed to his biggest weaknesses, and allowed him to express his main strengths, there are still some limitations which mean that he isn't an adequate replacement for other positions in the midfield.

Those limitations are still there. They haven't gone away.

My point from the beginning is simply that Liverpool can't rely on Henderson or Milner to do the job of players who have attributes that they simply don't have, and which are fundamental to a top class midfield.

They have attributes which can complement those, no doubt. But the key areas where they are weakest, are those exact areas which will impact us if are any point we are missing them.

Make no mistake, whatever your feelings are on these two players, they're not proper replacement if someone like keita, fabinho or ox is out injured. Where keitas ability to turn and face play, or transition from defence to attack might mitigate to some degree fabinho being out, or Chamberlain s ability to break lines and transition through midfield to attack might mitigate keitas absence, neither Henderson or Milner can provide those two things specifically and our midfield becomes static and heavily reliant on the fullbacks to provide creativity.

We need someone who is, in order to unlock rotation options for that central and creative midfield position. It's critical to next season.

I'm sure you'll see klopp feels the same way in this transfer window.
The dictionary begs to differ: analogy, a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
Unless the stuff you wrote at the beginning was just a space filler. Then you're right it wasn't an analogy it was a waste of everybody's time.
 

jackh1092

Active Member
Joined
May 20, 2018
Messages
299
I don't think midfield is a "problem area" per se, but i do think in a team of our level, it is a place that could be added too.

Someone mentioned about marginal gains for the cost, and Klopp would rather improve that via the training pitch. Personally i think Klopp has this squad maxed potentially right now, or very close to it. Yes Ox, Keita and last year's signings will have another year under their belts but i do think we are a well oiled machine.

Adding a different type of midfielder really would help for me. So would a Back-up left back as well as a good forward.

There are games at home where we completely dominate the ball, where we don't always need Fab, Wij and Keita for example. Ox and Keita could provide that attacking 3 with say, Fabinho. For me that's still a position where we could improve tho.

There is an issue with the press, and i certainly agree with that, but it's more for certain games i think we could do with an unlocker. Shaq arguably gives us this, but he isn't quite there at the level we need i'd argue. Can our scouting dpt find a Bernardo Silva? Very unlikely but they are very good at their jobs, so i hope so! Silva has the legs that Shaq lacks.
 



rab

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Joined
Jul 20, 2010
Messages
3,273
The fact it's the Daily Mail means we probably won't buy any of them but, the interesting name to me on that is Maxwell Cornet.

The more I think about it, the more I think we might be after a left footer primarily. Partly because I think if we're without Firmino, Salah gets the nod to step in and partly because he's our only left footed forward player other than Shaq I believe.

We know we had scouts at the recent Lyon game and it's not the first of their games we've watched. All the chat has been around a possible return for Fekir, Aouar and even Depay. But, Fekir's knee hasn't magically got better, we really don't need another 8 right now and I can't see Depay's personality endearing him to Klopp or his association with United endearing him to fans.

That leaves Cornet. A left footed wide forward that primarily plays on the right. He's got the pace and directness and fits the age profile we like to buy. Also, his contract runs out in a couple years so Aulas won't have us over a barrel.

His stats aren't as good as someone like Neres but he arguably plays in a better team in a weaker league and he's shown in the CL he can hold his own against the likes of Man City.

Given all that I'm wondering if he's perhaps an option we're looking at to add depth up top without bringing in someone expecting to start every week.
 
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shachart

"You're supposed to help people that need a bit."
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
2,050
After a succesful season picking new players to strengthen the team is always hard, because you hav eto drop players as well. and it is hard to bring top players knowing they will play second fiddle at best. As good as Gomez, Matip ( outstanding this season ) and Lovren ( last season when he was fit ) are, if VVD is injured how good will they be with out him ? I think De Ligt while expensive, is probably worth it.
Milner can cover for Robbo, TAA and Gomez can alternate when needed. and if Migs is ok with it, he is a good backup for Becker. Defense sorted.

Fabinho is nailed for the DM position, but Hendo and Gini can cover for him from time to time ( there is also the possibility of Grujic ).
Box to Box - we got Hendo, Gini, Keita and Ox. a true creative attacking midfielder is where we are lacking.
another CF is also a priority , but I wouldn't go looking fora like for like replacement for Firmino, there isn't one. We need someone who can bring something else, do the things that Firmino doesn't.