• Hey Guest!
    Enjoy the This Is Anfield Forums but want to remove the adverts? Now you can do so by clicking here.
    Thanks for your support!

Who would you buy?

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
For a lad who only today asked to be let back in after a ban, this is some post.
To be fair Mascot, a lot of people thought the ban was harsh in the first place. Plus, it was only supposed to be for 24hrs, or 48...

That was 3 years ago.

So to be clear, I didn't ask to have a ban lifted, I just politely reminded you that it already should have been lifted. 3 years ago.
 


Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Speaking of three years ago... And to clarify what I meant when I said "surreal" earlier on.. I was looking over the conversations when I first joined these boards. Time flies. Lots has changed. But we haven't fully transitioned yet from that old style. Not fully. Very nearly, but not quite.

The transition from that Liverpool to this one has gone in stages. But the first stage we went back to the best of it by getting Salah on board, who, in that first season was as good as Luis Suarez at his best, which I never thought I'd see again for a long time.

But we still largely bypassed the midfield.

People are talking about getting to two champions league finals with Henderson and Milner in midfield, as if it proves their quality. the basic line goes; Champions league is the pinnacle of European football, they were the midfield when we got there, therefore X plus Y = ...

The truth is, as hard working a midfield as that was, and despite being led by a much more intelligent tactician in Jurgen Klopp, the reason for our success was that we largely bypassed it, or at least paid it a fleeting visit on our way to the front line. Plus our ability as an attacking unit was much greater with chamberlain attacking from deep.

The best example of it was against Roma.

There was a point in that game where I paused the match to show who I was watching it with, that we just couldn't go near their midfield. I mean literally, there was like a no go zone in the middle of the pitch. We just did not have the ability to break that at all.

And then we hit a long pass over them, and it worked, and Klopp gestured from the sidelines to just go long, and the rest is history.

His comments afterwards were telling, too. "that must be the perfect performance" or something along those line was the leading question from the interviewer after the game.

His answer was "if we could control the game better after that, we'd be a lot closer to City in the league"

This is something he obviously values highly. It's something every top manager in the game values. In fact it's something every mediocre manager values too, but only the best coaches will be able to achieve it.

What we lack in control when Henderson and Milner are played together, puts a lot of strain on other parts of the team. The fact is, the other parts of the team have just been incredibly consistent.

We've got two players sharing the golden boot and BOTH fullbacks at record numbers for assists in premier league history. If you don't factor those two things in when analysing whether the midfield has been strong enough this season, and instead just point to the points total, that's fair enough.

Can we go into next season expecting Chamberlain and Keita to give us a full season?

We simply can't afford to. We need someone who brings what they bring to the midfield in terms of mobility and creativity. It'd be absolutely stupid to get this close, and risk going into the next season with the same limitations in midfield that we've had this season. In my opinion it really won't happen. I wouldn't even be surprised if we sign two attacking players who can play deeper.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
11,523
Speaking of three years ago... And to clarify what I meant when I said "surreal" earlier on.. I was looking over the conversations when I first joined these boards. Time flies. Lots has changed. But we haven't fully transitioned yet from that old style. Not fully. Very nearly, but not quite.

The transition from that Liverpool to this one has gone in stages. But the first stage we went back to the best of it by getting Salah on board, who, in that first season was as good as Luis Suarez at his best, which I never thought I'd see again for a long time.

But we still largely bypassed the midfield.

People are talking about getting to two champions league finals with Henderson and Milner in midfield, as if it proves their quality. the basic line goes; Champions league is the pinnacle of European football, they were the midfield when we got there, therefore X plus Y = ...

The truth is, as hard working a midfield as that was, and despite being led by a much more intelligent tactician in Jurgen Klopp, the reason for our success was that we largely bypassed it, or at least paid it a fleeting visit on our way to the front line. Plus our ability as an attacking unit was much greater with chamberlain attacking from deep.

The best example of it was against Roma.

There was a point in that game where I paused the match to show who I was watching it with, that we just couldn't go near their midfield. I mean literally, there was like a no go zone in the middle of the pitch. We just did not have the ability to break that at all.

And then we hit a long pass over them, and it worked, and Klopp gestured from the sidelines to just go long, and the rest is history.

His comments afterwards were telling, too. "that must be the perfect performance" or something along those line was the leading question from the interviewer after the game.

His answer was "if we could control the game better after that, we'd be a lot closer to City in the league"

This is something he obviously values highly. It's something every top manager in the game values. In fact it's something every mediocre manager values too, but only the best coaches will be able to achieve it.

What we lack in control when Henderson and Milner are played together, puts a lot of strain on other parts of the team. The fact is, the other parts of the team have just been incredibly consistent.

We've got two players sharing the golden boot and BOTH fullbacks at record numbers for assists in premier league history. If you don't factor those two things in when analysing whether the midfield has been strong enough this season, and instead just point to the points total, that's fair enough.

Can we go into next season expecting Chamberlain and Keita to give us a full season?

We simply can't afford to. We need someone who brings what they bring to the midfield in terms of mobility and creativity. It'd be absolutely stupid to get this close, and risk going into the next season with the same limitations in midfield that we've had this season. In my opinion it really won't happen. I wouldn't even be surprised if we sign two attacking players who can play deeper.
You're still being incredibly blinkered and narrow with your thinking.

Basically summed up your posts mean you see certain qualities as essential in a good central midfield. Any centre mids that do not posses these qualities are limited and need upgrading.

You're missing the obvious, ironically you even mention a part of what you are missing in your post. Klopp doesn't have that work completed by his central midfield.

Our full backs didn't set records for assists by accident or because they are just good enough to add that to their jobs. That is their job. Along with Firmino playing the 9 position more like a false 9 too.

What you are looking for the CMs to do Klopp isn't. Klopp is getting the CMs to do other work and it's working brilliantly.

Towards the end of the season our new players had settled enough that the midfield kicked on to a new, practically elite, level.

With Ox coming back and it's current level I wouldn't touch a thing. Henderson (despite your clear personal issues) has become an elite level CM balanced between the job Klopp needs his CMs to do and adding assists. He's still not a guaranteed week in week out starter but he's as good as anyone has anywhere.

David Silva is an elite level attacking midfielder and in his last 8 games he scored 1 and assisted 2. Since he was moved forward including the Southampton game Henderson has played 8 times he has one goal and 4 assists in that time. That's comparing an attacking midfielder there only to create and help his team score to a CM who has other roles and responsibilities.

Your obvious and personal dislike for Henderson (pausing a live game to point out something and have a rant really??? I'd never watch a game with you) is completely distorting your view of the game and our performances as a side.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,809
To be fair Mascot, a lot of people thought the ban was harsh in the first place. Plus, it was only supposed to be for 24hrs, or 48...

That was 3 years ago.

So to be clear, I didn't ask to have a ban lifted, I just politely reminded you that it already should have been lifted. 3 years ago.
Yep, I do appreciate that.

But the point still stands. You have been back a day, and there are now forum regulars opening wondering about how long until you get another ban.

Maybe you need to reign it in a bit?
 



Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Yep, I do appreciate that.

But the point still stands. You have been back a day, and there are now forum regulars opening wondering about how long until you get another ban.

Maybe you need to reign it in a bit?
whether people get themselves in a knot over what I'm saying doesn't make my opinion a bannable offence bud.

Let the conversation flow... we might come to some neutral ground in a bit... and if we don't, not the end of the world
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,809
What do you mean by this?

He's as good as anyone in the world?
The problem is that you are approaching this issue as if there is one set way of playing and one desired skill set for a midfielder.

Henderson may not be what Guardiola would look for in a midfielder, but he is what Klopp needs.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,809
whether people get themselves in a knot over what I'm saying doesn't make my opinion a bannable offence bud.

Let the conversation flow... we might come to some neutral ground in a bit... and if we don't, not the end of the world
Your opinion isn’t the problem. It’s the way you express it.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
13,923
The problem is that you are approaching this issue as if there is one set way of playing and one desired skill set for a midfielder.

Henderson may not be what Guardiola would look for in a midfielder, but he is what Klopp needs.
I think the other problem is that fans often look at Henderson in terms of his skill set on the field, his footballing attributes. Can he do this or that effectively? Can he add something nobody else can? It's too individualistic. It's like looking at a piece in a puzzle and wondering whether it's a perfect fit to complete the perfect puzzle. But football isn't like that, it's almost impossible to create perfection. But the main thing is that when fans look at the puzzle they want to build and the pieces needed for it, they forget that it needs a box as well. Henderson's not just a piece in the puzzle, he's also the box that holds all the pieces...even the ones not always used...fully motivated and together.

Players like Henderson and Milner are invaluable - they are so incredibly self-motivated and driven and yet selfless at the same time. They ensure that nobody sulks, that cliques don't develop, that everyone pulls for the team rather than themselves. They help create the environment where players on the fringes can come in and contribute, they help push the team on to greater heights and all the time they're doing everything they can to improve themselves. Henderson's place has been constantly under threat by new arrivals in recent years. Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Fabinho, even Shaqiri...but from what I understand, no player has done more to try and integrate them into the group, encourage them, support them.

You can't simply go out and buy that nor can that be easily replaced.

What's particularly annoying about pointing all that out is that I feel like I'm doing that to mitigate his perceived failings as a footballer. But those are constantly exaggerated by his detractors. He's a very, very good footballer. Is he world class? No, that should be reserved for the absolute top of the game. Would he make the match day squad of every single top six side next season? Yes. For all but City, Liverpool (and maybe Chelsea) he'd be a guaranteed starter.
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Ok mascot ... but still nowhere near a bannable offence.

Bank to Henderson and your point about Guardiola.. I'll admit this, I can't tell you with that level of certainty that klopp does or doesn't want something more from a player in that position, I can only say this is what I think or believe will or should happen.

We cant say for sure if Bernardo Silva would relegate Henderson to squad player, but I'm sure he would. And we cant judge exactly what klopp wants from his midfielders based on what he's doing with the ones he's got now
 



William Clarke

REDSHIRT ~ I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
2,243
I must admit that I'm a big fan of de Ligt even though I know he would cost a lot of money in order to get him. What is he, nineteen going on twenty and yet he is already at the top of his game. He would be the perfect foil for Virgil and wouldn't need much if any bedding in considering they are a national pairing. Can we afford to bid for him? Why not? If we can go out and buy Virgil and Allison, then surely we can get money together to buy de Ligt.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
13,977
Am I the only one who doesnt quite see why there is the fuss about De Ligt? Of all the things there was to credit Ajax about on this CL run this season, their defending was not one of them, and I didnt see anything from him in those games when it was problematic that suggested this was something happening around him.
 

Red Spud

Active Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2018
Messages
66
We cant say for sure if Bernardo Silva would relegate Henderson to squad player, but I'm sure he would.
Henderson is already a squad player and a very useful one at that.

He struggled playing as the holding midfielder but since Fabinho made that position his own and Hendo moved further forward he has been great. Not to mention the influence he has off the pitch.

Whatever transfers we end up making in the summer, and a creative midfielder would be very useful, I can't see Henderson going anywhere for a while.
 



William Clarke

REDSHIRT ~ I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
2,243
Am I the only one who doesnt quite see why there is the fuss about De Ligt? Of all the things there was to credit Ajax about on this CL run this season, their defending was not one of them, and I didnt see anything from him in those games when it was problematic that suggested this was something happening around him.
I believe this lad, twenty years old on the 12 August, and standing 1.89m (6ft 2ins) on his bare feet, is a player for both now and the future.

Matthijs de Ligt's playing record is impressive, too.
He has played for the Netherlands U15, U16, U17, U19 and the full national side, where he has played 15 games already. Playing alongside his national partner, van Dijk, he will continue to improve and, like Virg, could become another monster in our defence. There are those who believe we don't need another central defender because we have Joe Gomez, but I think bringing de Ligt in would improve Joe's game and make the competition for places so much better for our team.
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Henderson is already a squad player and a very useful one at that.

He struggled playing as the holding midfielder but since Fabinho made that position his own and Hendo moved further forward he has been great. Not to mention the influence he has off the pitch.

Whatever transfers we end up making in the summer, and a creative midfielder would be very useful, I can't see Henderson going anywhere for a while.
No neither can i. And im not about calling for his sale. How I see his situation going is him being gradually phased out of the first team more as the squad gets better, wanting first team football, then klopp saying he won't stand in his way.

But I could be wrong. Let's see

To honest the de ligt thing is a bit ironic given the Henderson topic.

Joe Gomez looked like potential world class with genuine standout attributes.

Do you get another world class player on board for a position that isn't often rotated?
 

Billy Biskix

TIA Youth Team
Ad-free Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
2,839
I believe this lad, twenty years old on the 12 August, and standing 1.89m (6ft 2ins) on his bare feet, is a player for both now and the future.

Matthijs de Ligt's playing record is impressive, too.
He has played for the Netherlands U15, U16, U17, U19 and the full national side, where he has played 15 games already. Playing alongside his national partner, van Dijk, he will continue to improve and, like Virg, could become another monster in our defence. There are those who believe we don't need another central defender because we have Joe Gomez, but I think bringing de Ligt in would improve Joe's game and make the competition for places so much better for our team.
I can't see us buying another CB unless one is due to be offloaded. Lovren is the most likely candidate but he needs to be persuaded to go (assuming JK wants rid) and still has 2 years left on his contract. From what I've seen I would rate Gomez above de Ligt and he was genuinely unlucky with his injury last season so I don't buy the 'injury-prone' argument when it is applied to him. We also need to factor in Hoever, maybe not for next season but certainly the season after that. He has the potential to be better than the pair of them. If we do spend a lot of money on a player this summer it is likely to be in a forward role rather than a defensive one, I'd have thought.
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
I do think he's more injury prone playing at right back. I wouldn't have a big lad like him running the touchline. I don't like it at all. He's athletic, but he's a big heavy athletic, not a whippet like the other two. I think him and Virgil has the potential to be the best partnership in Europe
 



SithBaare

From Doubters to Believers
Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Messages
1,989
Am I the only one who doesnt quite see why there is the fuss about De Ligt? Of all the things there was to credit Ajax about on this CL run this season, their defending was not one of them, and I didnt see anything from him in those games when it was problematic that suggested this was something happening around him.
It's about his level at the age of 19. He's at least the same level as those at 23 playing for top clubs.

Also, it's about getting the defense in order for the best part of the next decade and a half.
 

SithBaare

From Doubters to Believers
Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Messages
1,989
I do think he's more injury prone playing at right back. I wouldn't have a big lad like him running the touchline. I don't like it at all. He's athletic, but he's a big heavy athletic, not a whippet like the other two. I think him and Virgil has the potential to be the best partnership in Europe
Anyone that plays alongside Virgil for that matter. That partnership will be good.

Matip looked lost when paired against lovren but look at his improvement when he's playing alongside Virgil. I can think of atleast a couple of games where he's actually out performed Virgil , especially during the run in.

As of now , I reckon that klopp rates Virgil and matip as his first choice cb partnership and they have delivered the goods more often than not
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
13,977
It's about his level at the age of 19. He's at least the same level as those at 23 playing for top clubs.

Also, it's about getting the defense in order for the best part of the next decade and a half.
Right, I get that he is considered a top prospect, but my point is that I don't see that level of performance from him yet. From what I see is not yet on a par with Gomez or Matip, and not even really that close. If that analysis is true, then it has to temper what the expectations of him at liverpool would be, and I dont know that is congruoous with the sort of transfer fee it would take to land him.

I think it should also be pointed out that CB prospects are among the hardest to develop to fully fledged top players.
 

William Clarke

REDSHIRT ~ I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
2,243
Right, I get that he is considered a top prospect, but my point is that I don't see that level of performance from him yet. From what I see is not yet on a par with Gomez or Matip, and not even really that close. If that analysis is true, then it has to temper what the expectations of him at liverpool would be, and I dont know that is congruoous with the sort of transfer fee it would take to land him.

I think it should also be pointed out that CB prospects are among the hardest to develop to fully fledged top players.
When you say that you don't see a level of performance in de Ligt, I cast your mind back to those questioning the inclusion of Robbo. What the hell is he doing in our side, him from relegated Hull City? Well, that question has well and truly been answered. @Limiescouse , you mention Gomez and Matip being, presumably, ahead of de Ligt, and yet they just weren't cutting it until they paired up with Virgil. Matthijs de Ligt has already played with Virgil and can only get better. It must also be remembered that at 19 years he already has 15 full international caps (that's if the Dutch award them). I think if we could afford him then it's a no-brainer that we should buy him.
 

SithBaare

From Doubters to Believers
Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Messages
1,989
Right, I get that he is considered a top prospect, but my point is that I don't see that level of performance from him yet. From what I see is not yet on a par with Gomez or Matip, and not even really that close. If that analysis is true, then it has to temper what the expectations of him at liverpool would be, and I dont know that is congruoous with the sort of transfer fee it would take to land him.

I think it should also be pointed out that CB prospects are among the hardest to develop to fully fledged top players.
It's about how good he will be after a couple of seasons under virg or even pique for Barcelona. The market is inflated now and so are the prices. It is indeed speculation but a Gomez if he was signed at the age of 19 from a top 6 club and not from charlton then would have been around 30m then too.
 



Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
13,977
When you say that you don't see a level of performance in de Ligt, I cast your mind back to those questioning the inclusion of Robbo. What the hell is he doing in our side, him from relegated Hull City? Well, that question has well and truly been answered. @Limiescouse
I dont think the analogy is a good one. I dont know how many people had watched Robbo, and so most of the criticisms were based on the idea that we should be aiming higher than a player "no one has heard of" from a relegated team. They were not based on a rationale judgement of his ability. FWIW, as soon as the links were made I was fully on board. My issue with De Ligt is the 5 or 6 times I have seen him this season I do not see the player other people seem to think they are seeing.
 
Last edited:

William Clarke

REDSHIRT ~ I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
2,243
I dont think the analogy is a good one. I dont know how many people had watched Robbo, and so most of the criticisms were based on the idea that we should be aiming higher than a player "no one has heard of" from a relegated team. They were not based on a rationale judgement of his ability. FWIW, as soon as the links were made I was fully on board. My issue with De Ligt is the 5 or 6 times I have seen him this season I do not see a CB on a par with those playing in the top teams, as has been suggested.
I don't think any judgement was made on his ability, it was more that he was coming from a relegated club, so inferring his ability couldn't be good enough for our club. In regards to de Ligt, we are talking of a recognised international player who is being selected on a regular basis. I would like to see him signed for our club and only the transfer fee would be an obstacle to his possible signing.
 

SithBaare

From Doubters to Believers
Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Messages
1,989
I don't think any judgement was made on his ability, it was more that he was coming from a relegated club, so inferring his ability couldn't be good enough for our club. In regards to de Ligt, we are talking of a recognised international player who is being selected on a regular basis. I would like to see him signed for our club and only the transfer fee would be an obstacle to his possible signing.
Transfer fee and his wages too. I'd say his wages demands more.
 

SithBaare

From Doubters to Believers
Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Messages
1,989
People say we've spent on our back four. Fact is we've only bought Virgil and lovren for big money , alright sakho if we are pedantic but we've more or less recovered his money ... Speaking only on the transfer fees.

Matip free
Trent youth
Robbo 8m
Virgil 75m
Lovren 30m ?
Gomez 8m ?

Look at the market now when there are people willing to pay 60-70m for a 19 year old.

Any other team with a need to revamp their entire defense would easily need to spend twice the same amount
 

William Clarke

REDSHIRT ~ I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
2,243
People say we've spent on our back four. Fact is we've only bought Virgil and lovren for big money , alright sakho if we are pedantic but we've more or less recovered his money ... Speaking only on the transfer fees.

Matip free
Trent youth
Robbo 8m
Virgil 75m
Lovren 30m ?
Gomez 8m ?

Look at the market now when there are people willing to pay 60-70m for a 19 year old.

Any other team with a need to revamp their entire defense would easily need to spend twice the same amount
Yeah, as I remarked in an earlier post, it would only be the costs involved in signing de Ligt that would put Klopp off from getting him - that's if our manager is interested in getting another central defender.