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Who would you buy?



Mousecat

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Yep, I do appreciate that.

But the point still stands. You have been back a day, and there are now forum regulars opening wondering about how long until you get another ban.

Maybe you need to reign it in a bit?
whether people get themselves in a knot over what I'm saying doesn't make my opinion a bannable offence bud.

Let the conversation flow... we might come to some neutral ground in a bit... and if we don't, not the end of the world
 

Mascot88

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What do you mean by this?

He's as good as anyone in the world?
The problem is that you are approaching this issue as if there is one set way of playing and one desired skill set for a midfielder.

Henderson may not be what Guardiola would look for in a midfielder, but he is what Klopp needs.
 

Mascot88

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whether people get themselves in a knot over what I'm saying doesn't make my opinion a bannable offence bud.

Let the conversation flow... we might come to some neutral ground in a bit... and if we don't, not the end of the world
Your opinion isn’t the problem. It’s the way you express it.
 

Kopstar

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The problem is that you are approaching this issue as if there is one set way of playing and one desired skill set for a midfielder.

Henderson may not be what Guardiola would look for in a midfielder, but he is what Klopp needs.
I think the other problem is that fans often look at Henderson in terms of his skill set on the field, his footballing attributes. Can he do this or that effectively? Can he add something nobody else can? It's too individualistic. It's like looking at a piece in a puzzle and wondering whether it's a perfect fit to complete the perfect puzzle. But football isn't like that, it's almost impossible to create perfection. But the main thing is that when fans look at the puzzle they want to build and the pieces needed for it, they forget that it needs a box as well. Henderson's not just a piece in the puzzle, he's also the box that holds all the pieces...even the ones not always used...fully motivated and together.

Players like Henderson and Milner are invaluable - they are so incredibly self-motivated and driven and yet selfless at the same time. They ensure that nobody sulks, that cliques don't develop, that everyone pulls for the team rather than themselves. They help create the environment where players on the fringes can come in and contribute, they help push the team on to greater heights and all the time they're doing everything they can to improve themselves. Henderson's place has been constantly under threat by new arrivals in recent years. Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Fabinho, even Shaqiri...but from what I understand, no player has done more to try and integrate them into the group, encourage them, support them.

You can't simply go out and buy that nor can that be easily replaced.

What's particularly annoying about pointing all that out is that I feel like I'm doing that to mitigate his perceived failings as a footballer. But those are constantly exaggerated by his detractors. He's a very, very good footballer. Is he world class? No, that should be reserved for the absolute top of the game. Would he make the match day squad of every single top six side next season? Yes. For all but City, Liverpool (and maybe Chelsea) he'd be a guaranteed starter.
 



Mousecat

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Ok mascot ... but still nowhere near a bannable offence.

Bank to Henderson and your point about Guardiola.. I'll admit this, I can't tell you with that level of certainty that klopp does or doesn't want something more from a player in that position, I can only say this is what I think or believe will or should happen.

We cant say for sure if Bernardo Silva would relegate Henderson to squad player, but I'm sure he would. And we cant judge exactly what klopp wants from his midfielders based on what he's doing with the ones he's got now
 

William Clarke

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I must admit that I'm a big fan of de Ligt even though I know he would cost a lot of money in order to get him. What is he, nineteen going on twenty and yet he is already at the top of his game. He would be the perfect foil for Virgil and wouldn't need much if any bedding in considering they are a national pairing. Can we afford to bid for him? Why not? If we can go out and buy Virgil and Allison, then surely we can get money together to buy de Ligt.
 

Limiescouse

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Am I the only one who doesnt quite see why there is the fuss about De Ligt? Of all the things there was to credit Ajax about on this CL run this season, their defending was not one of them, and I didnt see anything from him in those games when it was problematic that suggested this was something happening around him.
 



Red Spud

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We cant say for sure if Bernardo Silva would relegate Henderson to squad player, but I'm sure he would.
Henderson is already a squad player and a very useful one at that.

He struggled playing as the holding midfielder but since Fabinho made that position his own and Hendo moved further forward he has been great. Not to mention the influence he has off the pitch.

Whatever transfers we end up making in the summer, and a creative midfielder would be very useful, I can't see Henderson going anywhere for a while.
 

William Clarke

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Am I the only one who doesnt quite see why there is the fuss about De Ligt? Of all the things there was to credit Ajax about on this CL run this season, their defending was not one of them, and I didnt see anything from him in those games when it was problematic that suggested this was something happening around him.
I believe this lad, twenty years old on the 12 August, and standing 1.89m (6ft 2ins) on his bare feet, is a player for both now and the future.

Matthijs de Ligt's playing record is impressive, too.
He has played for the Netherlands U15, U16, U17, U19 and the full national side, where he has played 15 games already. Playing alongside his national partner, van Dijk, he will continue to improve and, like Virg, could become another monster in our defence. There are those who believe we don't need another central defender because we have Joe Gomez, but I think bringing de Ligt in would improve Joe's game and make the competition for places so much better for our team.
 

Mousecat

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Henderson is already a squad player and a very useful one at that.

He struggled playing as the holding midfielder but since Fabinho made that position his own and Hendo moved further forward he has been great. Not to mention the influence he has off the pitch.

Whatever transfers we end up making in the summer, and a creative midfielder would be very useful, I can't see Henderson going anywhere for a while.
No neither can i. And im not about calling for his sale. How I see his situation going is him being gradually phased out of the first team more as the squad gets better, wanting first team football, then klopp saying he won't stand in his way.

But I could be wrong. Let's see

To honest the de ligt thing is a bit ironic given the Henderson topic.

Joe Gomez looked like potential world class with genuine standout attributes.

Do you get another world class player on board for a position that isn't often rotated?
 

Billy Biskix

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I believe this lad, twenty years old on the 12 August, and standing 1.89m (6ft 2ins) on his bare feet, is a player for both now and the future.

Matthijs de Ligt's playing record is impressive, too.
He has played for the Netherlands U15, U16, U17, U19 and the full national side, where he has played 15 games already. Playing alongside his national partner, van Dijk, he will continue to improve and, like Virg, could become another monster in our defence. There are those who believe we don't need another central defender because we have Joe Gomez, but I think bringing de Ligt in would improve Joe's game and make the competition for places so much better for our team.
I can't see us buying another CB unless one is due to be offloaded. Lovren is the most likely candidate but he needs to be persuaded to go (assuming JK wants rid) and still has 2 years left on his contract. From what I've seen I would rate Gomez above de Ligt and he was genuinely unlucky with his injury last season so I don't buy the 'injury-prone' argument when it is applied to him. We also need to factor in Hoever, maybe not for next season but certainly the season after that. He has the potential to be better than the pair of them. If we do spend a lot of money on a player this summer it is likely to be in a forward role rather than a defensive one, I'd have thought.
 



Mousecat

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I do think he's more injury prone playing at right back. I wouldn't have a big lad like him running the touchline. I don't like it at all. He's athletic, but he's a big heavy athletic, not a whippet like the other two. I think him and Virgil has the potential to be the best partnership in Europe
 

SithBaare

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Am I the only one who doesnt quite see why there is the fuss about De Ligt? Of all the things there was to credit Ajax about on this CL run this season, their defending was not one of them, and I didnt see anything from him in those games when it was problematic that suggested this was something happening around him.
It's about his level at the age of 19. He's at least the same level as those at 23 playing for top clubs.

Also, it's about getting the defense in order for the best part of the next decade and a half.
 

SithBaare

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I do think he's more injury prone playing at right back. I wouldn't have a big lad like him running the touchline. I don't like it at all. He's athletic, but he's a big heavy athletic, not a whippet like the other two. I think him and Virgil has the potential to be the best partnership in Europe
Anyone that plays alongside Virgil for that matter. That partnership will be good.

Matip looked lost when paired against lovren but look at his improvement when he's playing alongside Virgil. I can think of atleast a couple of games where he's actually out performed Virgil , especially during the run in.

As of now , I reckon that klopp rates Virgil and matip as his first choice cb partnership and they have delivered the goods more often than not
 

Limiescouse

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It's about his level at the age of 19. He's at least the same level as those at 23 playing for top clubs.

Also, it's about getting the defense in order for the best part of the next decade and a half.
Right, I get that he is considered a top prospect, but my point is that I don't see that level of performance from him yet. From what I see is not yet on a par with Gomez or Matip, and not even really that close. If that analysis is true, then it has to temper what the expectations of him at liverpool would be, and I dont know that is congruoous with the sort of transfer fee it would take to land him.

I think it should also be pointed out that CB prospects are among the hardest to develop to fully fledged top players.
 

William Clarke

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Right, I get that he is considered a top prospect, but my point is that I don't see that level of performance from him yet. From what I see is not yet on a par with Gomez or Matip, and not even really that close. If that analysis is true, then it has to temper what the expectations of him at liverpool would be, and I dont know that is congruoous with the sort of transfer fee it would take to land him.

I think it should also be pointed out that CB prospects are among the hardest to develop to fully fledged top players.
When you say that you don't see a level of performance in de Ligt, I cast your mind back to those questioning the inclusion of Robbo. What the hell is he doing in our side, him from relegated Hull City? Well, that question has well and truly been answered. @Limiescouse , you mention Gomez and Matip being, presumably, ahead of de Ligt, and yet they just weren't cutting it until they paired up with Virgil. Matthijs de Ligt has already played with Virgil and can only get better. It must also be remembered that at 19 years he already has 15 full international caps (that's if the Dutch award them). I think if we could afford him then it's a no-brainer that we should buy him.
 



SithBaare

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Right, I get that he is considered a top prospect, but my point is that I don't see that level of performance from him yet. From what I see is not yet on a par with Gomez or Matip, and not even really that close. If that analysis is true, then it has to temper what the expectations of him at liverpool would be, and I dont know that is congruoous with the sort of transfer fee it would take to land him.

I think it should also be pointed out that CB prospects are among the hardest to develop to fully fledged top players.
It's about how good he will be after a couple of seasons under virg or even pique for Barcelona. The market is inflated now and so are the prices. It is indeed speculation but a Gomez if he was signed at the age of 19 from a top 6 club and not from charlton then would have been around 30m then too.
 

Limiescouse

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When you say that you don't see a level of performance in de Ligt, I cast your mind back to those questioning the inclusion of Robbo. What the hell is he doing in our side, him from relegated Hull City? Well, that question has well and truly been answered. @Limiescouse
I dont think the analogy is a good one. I dont know how many people had watched Robbo, and so most of the criticisms were based on the idea that we should be aiming higher than a player "no one has heard of" from a relegated team. They were not based on a rationale judgement of his ability. FWIW, as soon as the links were made I was fully on board. My issue with De Ligt is the 5 or 6 times I have seen him this season I do not see the player other people seem to think they are seeing.
 
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William Clarke

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I dont think the analogy is a good one. I dont know how many people had watched Robbo, and so most of the criticisms were based on the idea that we should be aiming higher than a player "no one has heard of" from a relegated team. They were not based on a rationale judgement of his ability. FWIW, as soon as the links were made I was fully on board. My issue with De Ligt is the 5 or 6 times I have seen him this season I do not see a CB on a par with those playing in the top teams, as has been suggested.
I don't think any judgement was made on his ability, it was more that he was coming from a relegated club, so inferring his ability couldn't be good enough for our club. In regards to de Ligt, we are talking of a recognised international player who is being selected on a regular basis. I would like to see him signed for our club and only the transfer fee would be an obstacle to his possible signing.
 

SithBaare

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I don't think any judgement was made on his ability, it was more that he was coming from a relegated club, so inferring his ability couldn't be good enough for our club. In regards to de Ligt, we are talking of a recognised international player who is being selected on a regular basis. I would like to see him signed for our club and only the transfer fee would be an obstacle to his possible signing.
Transfer fee and his wages too. I'd say his wages demands more.
 

SithBaare

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People say we've spent on our back four. Fact is we've only bought Virgil and lovren for big money , alright sakho if we are pedantic but we've more or less recovered his money ... Speaking only on the transfer fees.

Matip free
Trent youth
Robbo 8m
Virgil 75m
Lovren 30m ?
Gomez 8m ?

Look at the market now when there are people willing to pay 60-70m for a 19 year old.

Any other team with a need to revamp their entire defense would easily need to spend twice the same amount
 



William Clarke

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People say we've spent on our back four. Fact is we've only bought Virgil and lovren for big money , alright sakho if we are pedantic but we've more or less recovered his money ... Speaking only on the transfer fees.

Matip free
Trent youth
Robbo 8m
Virgil 75m
Lovren 30m ?
Gomez 8m ?

Look at the market now when there are people willing to pay 60-70m for a 19 year old.

Any other team with a need to revamp their entire defense would easily need to spend twice the same amount
Yeah, as I remarked in an earlier post, it would only be the costs involved in signing de Ligt that would put Klopp off from getting him - that's if our manager is interested in getting another central defender.
 

Limiescouse

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I don't think any judgement was made on his ability, it was more that he was coming from a relegated club, so inferring his ability couldn't be good enough for our club. In regards to de Ligt, we are talking of a recognised international player who is being selected on a regular basis.
So are you agreeing that it isn't a fitting analogy?
 

William Clarke

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So are you agreeing that it isn't a fitting analogy?
Agree in that Robbo wasn't at the time a recognised international whereas de Ligt is, but the only point I was making is that the Dutchman would fit into our back line really well and only the high cost of his signature would be a stumbling block in us getting him - and of course Klopp wanting him.
 

RedForever2014

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Matip has certainly transformed from Bambi on ice to Olympic winning ice skater in recent months.

I still worry about his injury record, but he does look more Varane than Traore right now.

That said, he's only a year left on his contract, and having done the Bosman with big signing on bonus when he left his last club to join us, maybe he's planning the same again.

We should always be looking ahead, always reducing risks to our chances of stability and success, and for me De Ligt remains viable as an upgrade on Lovren, especially given Matip's situation and Gomez's injury record.
 

William Clarke

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Matip has certainly transformed from Bambi on ice to Olympic winning ice skater in recent months.

I still worry about his injury record, but he does look more Varane than Traore right now.

That said, he's only a year left on his contract, and having done the Bosman with big signing on bonus when he left his last club to join us, maybe he's planning the same again.

We should always be looking ahead, always reducing risks to our chances of stability and success, and for me De Ligt remains viable as an upgrade on Lovren, especially given Matip's situation and Gomez's injury record.
Do you think de Ligt's cost would be too exorbitant for our money chest?