Who would you buy?

Jaytinho

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Hmmmmm Don Balon (I think they are relatively high up on the bullshit scale) say €50m (£44m) should be enough for James Rodriguez. I would be all over this if true. People questioned Shaqiri's work ethic as well. But James is a player you would want for his head and not his running. Perfect to just sit between Fabinho and the front 3 and just feed like crazy while taking the occasional cracker outside the box. He does have a weird injury history though

Link: James Rodriguez will not remain at Real Madrid and he has a destination
 

redfanman

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Hmmmmm Don Balon (I think they are relatively high up on the bullshit scale) say €50m (£44m) should be enough for James Rodriguez. I would be all over this if true. People questioned Shaqiri's work ethic as well. But James is a player you would want for his head and not his running. Perfect to just sit between Fabinho and the front 3 and just feed like crazy while taking the occasional cracker outside the box. He does have a weird injury history though

Link: James Rodriguez will not remain at Real Madrid and he has a destination
Not sure from your description he is a player that we would sign. running is a key part of our game.
 

jackh1092

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No chance James is signing for LFC. Massive wages, and as redfanman says, he's not an LFC player.
 

Flobs

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Hmmmmm Don Balon (I think they are relatively high up on the bullshit scale) say €50m (£44m) should be enough for James Rodriguez. I would be all over this if true. People questioned Shaqiri's work ethic as well. But James is a player you would want for his head and not his running. Perfect to just sit between Fabinho and the front 3 and just feed like crazy while taking the occasional cracker outside the box. He does have a weird injury history though

Link: James Rodriguez will not remain at Real Madrid and he has a destination
Sounds like a player for 4411 like Maddison or Fekir. We do need that link man when we drop deep and defend (we struggle with Firmino dropping deep to defend on the counter but that defensive duty is also very valuable to us. I reckon the way out for us is some faster players to push up quickly when we win the ball back. The likes of AOC and Keita could help us out here in the future. If we want to go down the Lampard style N°10 route then why not Maddison? Perhaps wouldn't be cheaper but wages would be easier and in a season or 2 his PL credentials well established.
 

Herb

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Hmmmmm Don Balon (I think they are relatively high up on the bullshit scale) say €50m (£44m) should be enough for James Rodriguez. I would be all over this if true. People questioned Shaqiri's work ethic as well. But James is a player you would want for his head and not his running. Perfect to just sit between Fabinho and the front 3 and just feed like crazy while taking the occasional cracker outside the box. He does have a weird injury history though

Link: James Rodriguez will not remain at Real Madrid and he has a destination
I wonder just how good he actually is. Had a cracking World Cup in 2014 but then Madrid have tried to get him out on some kind of weird loan with an option to buy deal that Bayern aren’t interested in taking up. Two elite clubs not fancying you usually points to some kind of issue.
 

Thomas1195

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If we want to go down the Lampard style N°10 route then why not Maddison? Perhaps wouldn't be cheaper but wages would be easier and in a season or 2 his PL credentials well established.
He is also a set-piece and free-kick expert.
 

Jaytinho

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I wonder just how good he actually is. Had a cracking World Cup in 2014 but then Madrid have tried to get him out on some kind of weird loan with an option to buy deal that Bayern aren’t interested in taking up. Two elite clubs not fancying you usually points to some kind of issue.
There is a combination of him being sick of Germany lol and Bayern not looking to quickly open negotiations with his agent, so the departure seems like a mutual thing. I think the issue could be work ethic, and I also think Uli Hoeness is a factor as well, the man can really be an asshole. He just told one of his longest serving CBs in Boateng that he should leave, just like that. £44m in this market for a player of James quality is abit suspicious
 

Jaytinho

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He is also a set-piece and free-kick expert.
So is James, he is a dead ball specialist. But, if you look at it, Maddison probably has a better work ethic. But when it comes to technical ability, James is ahead there
 

Mousecat

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I will hold my hand up and say City have a more technically skilled midfield than ours. De Bruyne, Silva’s x2, Gundogan are very good. But that doesn't mean they are better in terms of the teams style/approach.
I'd say they were better. Better than the one we've had this season anyway.

Better than the one with a fully firing Keita and Chamberlain in it?
I doubt it. But we haven't had that so far and we've missed their qualities.

If you gave Pep our midfield and vice versa they would both struggle.
This is one of the reasons why I think we should be optimistic for the future.

If you gave us City's midfield we'd have won the league with more than 100 points and if you'd given City our midfield I think they're be lucky to get into the 90s.

This is the crux of the debate really. We're not all that stylistically different in regards to our approach. This isn't a comparison between a team who favour high intensity and pressure over technique and creativity, and vice versa. Klopp's Liverpool vs Wenger's Arsenal yes. But not City.

They're as intense in their pressing game as anyone. It's a fundamental part of their game. They don't accept technique and creativity vs work rate.

Their most influential and creative players are all those who at their core are hyper competitive athletes. De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling... the work these lads put in is immense.

And this is what we've got to overcome. And Klopp knows this. Hard working isn't enough for this Liverpool team. You've got to be a level above hard working. You've got to be obsessed. Demonic.

The City players will hunt the ball down like... fucking... animals
They're relentless..

And.....

When they get it, they've got technical skills and IQ on a par with anyone on the planet.

And then they're juiced to the gills on money...

The harsh reality we have now in this present time is that in any other league season... in any other era, this Liverpool team would be dominant... back to back league titles... three in a row... maybe four.. whatever. Nobody else could compete. Not out of the current group. And Milner and Henderson would totally be cool in that situation. But now we need to go that bit further, because possibly the only manager who could better what we've done this season, is in charge of Manchester City. And there you go.

So, we need someone capable of putting in the work rate of Henderson, the work rate of Milner, who also just happens to be super technical and intelligent as well.

That's the model for the player who is the required level while Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp are in charge if you want to win this league. It means that otherwise really good players aren't good enough for the first team. And that's just the way it is.

Out of interest, who would you bring in to improve our midfield/team?
I'll answer this by actually taking your own point that you made above. I'd take Bernardo Silva as the prototype for exactly what we need to add to our midfield. Not only can he add creativity, but he rotates through a few positions and has the quality to play a really high level in each one. He plays high intensity and quick turnover football as well as he plays tempo control possession football.

There are so many things similar about Pep and Klopp, even if there are also key differences. I think we really need to understand that. They key difference is the amount of money they've had to spend and the size of the job they've had to do. So I don't think it's right to make a complete judgement on how Klopp wants his ultimate football team to play.

That's what Liverpool will be. for the first time in his career, he'll be able to put together his best team in his best vision, without having to play feeder for someone else. To properly put together and then refine his model.

Maybe that will be players like Hendo and Milner long term. But more likely scenario is that it'll be with players who take their work levels and passion, and add to it some more technique, long range shooting, and creativity.
 
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KYRed18

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City do not have pressing monsters in central midfield winning the ball back. They create.

Just look at how many tackles per game they do:
Gundogan 0.7
David Silva 0.9
De Bruyne (better) 1.2
Ours;
Wijnaldum (our worst) 1.1
Henderson 1.5
Milner 1.6
Keita 1.6


This.

City's press is used to rush opposition into giving up possession. Most teams feel the press closing, they kick the ball long. However, they were so compact defensively, there is no one up top to give chase resulting in a change of possession back to City.

We on the other hand, prefer to use the press to create an offensive opportunity. Our midfielders do create, just they create by tackling an opponent or intercepting a pass as they lure an opponent into a trap. Do I believe a B Silva would find a role in our team, yes (personally think he is absolute class). I again think Hendo (offered a long extension when Klopp was here), Gini, Ox, and Keita are aligned with the boss's idea of what a great midfield should look like.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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How we have filled the gaps has been incredible since Klopp's arrival. GK check, CB check, Fullbacks check, DM check, Wingers check.
When you look back to the days of Migs, Skrtel, Glen Johnson, Moreno, Joe Allen, Ibe/Coutinho .. we have come a long way. :)

Much of the talk has been about 'control' which some on here put down to possession. I don't think this is centrally what Klopp is talking about though. Control is dictating the pace of the game. It is obvious when we drop back offensively we are looking to force a false rhythm and counter attack (counter attacking creates fear in the opposition (if that happens they slow their play down)). Our problem is our counter attacking in these circumstances is not good Salah becomes too isolated as all our other players defend too deep. When it comes to forcing a false (slow) rhythm our midfield end up changing position too much leaving too many passing lanes open (they are covering for each other but in doing so are losing balance) a team that sets up what we call the bus just doesn't do that (watch Leicester they are very disciplined and keep Maddison as a link for their counters (just one example) we don't keep that discipline).
I reckon we can develop our own style here, keep the midfield flexible and covering each other and still counter effectively. This is what I think Klopp is talking about we just need more time to perfect it. Fast players like AOC and Keita could help enormously here.
I'd say they were better. Better than the one we've had this season anyway.

Better than the one with a fully firing Keita and Chamberlain in it?
I doubt it. But we haven't had that so far and we've missed their qualities.



This is one of the reasons why I think we should be optimistic for the future.

If you gave us City's midfield we'd have won the league with more than 100 points and if you'd given City our midfield I think they're be lucky to get into the 90s.

This is the crux of the debate really. We're not all that stylistically different in regards to our approach. This isn't a comparison between a team who favour high intensity and pressure over technique and creativity, and vice versa. Klopp's Liverpool vs Wenger's Arsenal yes. But not City.

They're as intense in their pressing game as anyone. It's a fundamental part of their game. They don't accept technique and creativity vs work rate.

Their most influential and creative players are all those who at their core are hyper competitive athletes. De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling... the work these lads put in is immense.

And this is what we've got to overcome. And Klopp knows this. Hard working isn't enough for this Liverpool team. You've got to be a level above hard working. You've got to be obsessed. Demonic.

The City players will hunt the ball down like... fucking... animals
They're relentless..

And.....

When they get it, they've got technical skills and IQ on a par with anyone on the planet.

And then they're juiced to the gills on money...

The harsh reality we have now in this present time is that in any other league season... in any other era, this Liverpool team would be dominant... back to back league titles... three in a row... maybe four.. whatever. Nobody else could compete. Not out of the current group. And Milner and Henderson would totally be cool in that situation. But now we need to go that bit further, because possibly the only manager who could better what we've done this season, is in charge of Manchester City. And there you go.

So, we need someone capable of putting in the work rate of Henderson, the work rate of Milner, who also just happens to be super technical and intelligent as well.

That's the model for the player who is the required level while Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp are in charge if you want to win this league. It means that otherwise really good players aren't good enough for the first team. And that's just the way it is.



I'll answer this by actually taking your own point that you made above. I'd take Bernardo Silva as the prototype for exactly what we need to add to our midfield. Not only can he add creativity, but he rotates through a few positions and has the quality to play a really high level in each one. He plays high intensity and quick turnover football as well as he plays tempo control possession football.

There are so many things similar about Pep and Klopp, even if there are also key differences. I think we really need to understand that. They key difference is the amount of money they've had to spend and the size of the job they've had to do. So I don't think it's right to make a complete judgement on how Klopp wants his ultimate football team to play.

That's what Liverpool will be. for the first time in his career, he'll be able to put together his best team in his best vision, without having to play feeder for someone else. To properly put together and then refine his model.

Maybe that will be players like Hendo and Milner long term. But more likely scenario is that it'll be with players who take their work levels and passion, and add to it some more technique, long range shooting, and creativity.

For me the key difference is Pep will always take the easy managerial job. The already dominant team in their league. He´s a great manager, no doubt but not the greatest or in my opinion up with the very greats. Why you may ask? He took over a great team at Barca and kept them ticking over. They pretty much carried on where he left off. he took over Heynecks at Bayern and in my opinion made them a worse team and a worse team to watch and couldn´t get near the Champions League. He´s taken over at Man city thrown a shed load of money and got no where near the Champions League again. Make no mistake that´s what he was brought into to do for both Bayern and Man City.

Klopp on the other hand is a football romantic. He took on a sleeping giant knowing if he got us back to the top he would be a hero. You can see the way the team plays, not stooping to the diving and rolling around or waving the imaginary yellow cards or crowding the referee that he is a football romantic. You can see it by the way he rather find a traing ground solution or a solution from within rather than throw a wheel barrow of cash at something. If he wins the Champions league he will be a great with LFC and have his face on a flag for posterity along with 5 other greats.

Klopp is a football romantic.
Pep is a football mercenary.
 

Limiescouse

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For me the key difference is Pep will always take the easy managerial job. The already dominant team in their league. He´s a great manager, no doubt but not the greatest or in my opinion up with the very greats. Why you may ask? He took over a great team at Barca and kept them ticking over. They pretty much carried on where he left off.
It seems to be very much forgotten what a state the Barca side he took over had got themselves into. They had just finished 3rd (which is terrible for them) and had the look very much of this current Real side. He went in and cleared house, including immediately getting rid of 2 club icons Deco and Ronaldinho. He freshened up the squad with a group of younger, hungrier players and got the players he inherited to massively improve their fitness and work rate.

Of all the ways people might want to diminish Pep's success, and there are several, this is not a good one.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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It seems to be very much forgotten what a state the Barca side he took over had got themselves into. They had just finished 3rd (which is terrible for them) and had the look very much of this current Real side. He went in and cleared house, including immediately getting rid of 2 club icons Deco and Ronaldinho. He freshened up the squad with a group of younger, hungrier players and got the players he inherited to massively improve their fitness and work rate.

Of all the ways people might want to diminish Pep's success, and there are several, this is not a good one.
In your humble opinion of course. In my humble opinion not quite the massive rebuilding job you are implying as a couple of seasons earlier they won the La Liga and Champions league double and still had a great base to work with plus a lot of the youngsters coming through who Pep had worked with.
 
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Limiescouse

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Well no, not really. What you said about the Barca side he took over and what Pep did to get them to perform is objectively not correct.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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Barca´s squad 2007-2008 season
Victor Valdés, Gabriel Milito, Rafa Marquéz, Carlos Puyol, Xavi, gudjohnson, Enhiesta, Eto ó, Ronaldinho, José Manuel Pinto, thierry Henry, Edmilson, Sylvinho, Dos Santos, Santiago Ezquerro, That donkey Lionel Messi, Deco, Thuram, Abidal, Yaya Toure, Oleguer, Albert Jorquera, Bojan.

few in´s and out´s but still a great base to work with for the next season.
 

Limiescouse

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So Barca should win La Liga every season or they need a rebuild?
Not even remotely what I said. However, it was a side that hadn't won anything in 2 years, and were closer to the bottom half of the table than the title in Rijkard's final year. By the time Pep got there he found he inherited a bunch of lazy and past it names who had become too comfortable and didnt think they had to work. Pep made immediate personnel changes, including, as I said, getting rid of club icons. Those changes were greeted at the time as being more rash than Fergie's cull of 94. He not only made those really bold personnel changes but completely changed the approach of the side. To suggest he rocked in and just took advantage of a strong side is just not remotely true.