Who would you buy?

RedForever2014

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I won't believe it until I see it but there's definitely potential to do so if injuries pass these players by and they continue their progress curves under Klopp. Hopefully Liverpool win Champions League this season and players get another reason to stick - because all the players who will leave are those who barely contributed, either due to lack of quality or playing time.

I'm not saying that Man City will suddenly be ten points weaker because Kompany and maybe Sane will leave - they have almost literally all the money in the world and Guardiola to make that impossible - but another summer of adding quality would be a dream after all these years of losing key players.
The crux of this for me is what this summer looks like in comparison to those summers after finishing second when we bought badly and sold a key man.

To show we've really stepped up as a club, we have to keep all our key players and sign at least one or two top quality players to add to what we have.

This 97 point so we don't need to do anything argument is just plain wrong. There are issues for all to see, we just did well despite them, mostly as we were lucky with injuries.

A 4th quality forward without selling Bobby, Mo or Mane is the bare minimum I'd accept as an acceptable summer.
 

SadiosMio

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if that's true about de ligt it's quite annoying

this break is too long
Happy to see it, if it does (and I very much think it's still "if", Barca could decide to up their wage offer and he's gone in a flash). Much rather him go there than Barca. Man U certainly needs more than him, they'd be spending more than LFC did for Van Dijk, and no doubt De Ligt would be off to Barca whenever they come back in. Remember when they thought Pogba was their savior? Now he wants to leave but no one wants to buy him.

All this for someone Liverpool was never going to sign. Sounds good to me. That's 100M someone in the market won't have to compete for a player we do want.
 

Nikola

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We've had plen

City are rumoured to be looking to bring in 2 CBs and possibly a RB, a DM with questions remaining over Mendy, and a host of other ageing players. They will find it harder to sustain that pace through that restructuring, than we will.
I don't expect it but I hope for it. The fear factor will be present as long as Guardiola is there, teams will keep rolling over for them, I'm afraid, making it easy for new signings to bed in. I do hope that they will miss Kompany's leadership, even if he did not play too many games for them, and that they will miss Sane as a unique game-changing weapon. I think they will easily replace Fernandinho, though.

The crux of this for me is what this summer looks like in comparison to those summers after finishing second when we bought badly and sold a key man.

To show we've really stepped up as a club, we have to keep all our key players and sign at least one or two top quality players to add to what we have.

This 97 point so we don't need to do anything argument is just plain wrong. There are issues for all to see, we just did well despite them, mostly as we were lucky with injuries.

A 4th quality forward without selling Bobby, Mo or Mane is the bare minimum I'd accept as an acceptable summer.
I can't agree that Liverpool were lucky with injuries - AOC missed virtually whole season, while Gomez missed a half of it, Keita had a lot of niggles... All of them first eleven players. That said, Liverpool were lucky with fitness of three players they couldn't replace, in my opinion, which are Alisson, Van Dijk and Fabinho.

Getting a quality left back, a replacement for Lovren and a forward/winger is still on my wish list but I'd settle for the former two as Klopp wants to keep Origi. To be honest, I'm hoping for another pleasant surprise from him, Shaqiri and especially Brewster, looking at how the others progressed after spending at least two seasons with Klopp.
 

Limiescouse

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I understand that some players aren't happy if they're not playing regularly, but I still come back to the same point that if they are good enough in comparison to the better players in the squad, they will get plenty of minutes.

There are always injuries (we've been lucky that we've not had many with the front three), there is always a need to rotate, there are many trophies to go after.

So for me, that's not a reason for not having quality depth, because having a deep squad of quality players is necessary to win multiple trophies in the modern era.

Part of having a squad that's good enough is to be prepared to sell and replace squad players almost every summer. It's the price of success and is actually a good thing if they have held their value or increased in value.


I think some players are prepared to play less if they're younger and have time on their side, or if they're veterans and still want to be involved at a top club, or if they're on a better contact than they'd get elsewhere. The proof of the latter is the players who have refused to move on despite not playing regularly, as they're not prepared to take a pay cut.

I think the issue is mostly about peak age players who aren't playing regularly, and that for me is about ensuring your peak age players are good enough to get enough games to keep them happy.

The other aspect to this is that to keep your best players happy you've got to be competitive, and thus in order to keep your better players happy you've got to have the depth, even if some of them are a bit unhappy.

In short, let's worry more about not winning the trophies we should because we don't have the quality in depth that we need, rather than a few players each summer wanting to go elsewhere for more game time.

And ultimately we're not talking about 22 like for like players. We're talking about taking the regularly usable quality we have a bit deeper, and improving the level of the 18-20 level players in the outfield squad, so they can be used more than Moreno, Sturridge, Clyne and Lallana now can.
I think that is far more a response to an argument you think can reject than the actual argument I am making.

I am not talking about keeping players happy. I am not talking about the difficulty selling a marginal role to a player. I am not talking ambition. I am not talking about not wanting to rotate, and not even about dismissing the impact of injuries. I am simply making the statement that there are practical limitations to the size of the squad you can have that allows you to perform at the very top level and have all your pieces be interchangeable with no drop off in performance. Practice suggests that is about 16-18 players. My City examples were to illustrate that not even unlimited funds and a football manager approach to just buying "more quality" can necessarily solve the issue.

Sure, we should not just accept that as a reason to not make moves in the market (or find other ways to strengthen beyond what we had this year), but literally no one is suggesting that to be case. However, if we do go and get 3 players who on paper look like good additions and make an impact, they will do so at the expense of someone else, and we will be back in the situation where the 18th and 19th guy in line make us worry that our squad is "too thin" the 4 or 5 times they get to start next season.
 
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SadiosMio

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Don't think that has been reported by anyone reliable has it?
Would be very surprised if true.

Would
Barca fans seem to think if the numbers being thrown around (completely insane) are true, their club won't match it and shouldn't. And they're right. It's completely nuts, even more than what they got De Jong for.

It would be another transfer like Sanchez where as much as you pay the player, it ends up costing you even more because it breaks your wage structure...only this time for a 19 year old defender from the Eredivisie. 300k+ per week, maybe 350 depending who you believe. Maybe 85M in fees all in between Ajax and Mino.

Ferguson was right to want to stay away from Mino, and now apparently they're so desperate they're completely giving over the finances of the club to him. I'm thinking Mino has found a mark in Woodward and Man U and is just working that angle until it breaks. He got 40M from them in the Pogba deal; no doubt that would never have happened if Ferguson was still in charge there.

And still it may not end up being enough if Barca eventually ups the offer. But even if Man U doesn't sign De Ligt, do you think every other agent is going to look at this and say "hrm I can ask for more from them for my young player". And if they do, the player will just be like De Gea, getting progressively more desperate to leave for the club he really wanted to be at all along.
 

Lynch04

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I agree that Klopp is the more pragmatic of the two managers. That game against Roma is the perfect example.

Would Guardiola have just said "go long"?

Who knows.

But we are in direct competition with them, and Guardiola is their man, and they have all that money. And it's formidable.

So... what do they do better than us? Where can we improve to match them?

I don't believe in just dismissing the analysis of the midfield as mere differences in style, and saying "that's just how Klopp wants his midfield to be"

There is no evidence whatsoever of this fact. All we know is that he has what he has and he's working with that. As the fundamental premise for the spirited defence of Jordan henderson and James Milner, it's got to be critically analysed.

I think Mascot, maybe a couple of people, made the point "They do the job Klopp wants from his midfield"

This is a questionable premise. I mean, of course they do. and they do it well. But is it the job which, long term, Klopp will want his midfield to do? Or will we/can we evolve that model?

To my mind it's not even in doubt. This is the area where Manchester city are the more refined, the more finished article than we are. And it's not about simply revolving the debate around single criteria such as creativity or workrate, then using the basic stats to validate the position.

Let me just say that in no way is this a criticism. It's a statement of what I believe to be fact. An observation. City have had all the money and Guardiola hasn't had to gradually rebuild, and not from the starting position Klopp has either.

It's certain aspects of the game where they excel, and it's those areas where we can improve the most.

I'll put this as bluntly and basically as it needs to be.

When I watch them play, and then watch us, the aspect of their game which is head and shoulders above ours is their ability to control possession, especially from a leading position.

The requirement in that situation is for a player who is comfortable with possession under pressure, able to face the play, able to shield the ball, able to carry the ball under pressure, and with the first touch and technique to not present the opportunity for a turnover.

In our midfield, we have four players who can do that: Gini Wijnaldum, Fabinho, naby Keita and Oxlade Chamberlain.

Of those players, only two have been available to Klopp this season.

Critical to maintaining possession and complete control of a football match, is for there to be no weak link in this system. No players who fall below the necessary requirements to play this way. Man City's midfield is like glue in those instances. Our isn't. There was a point in the Barcelona game where we could have conceded a goal through a chance we gave them from Milner's lack of control of a very simple pass.

When we don't have those players, yes, we have to play to our other strengths, and this Liverpool team have so many other strengths that maybe it seems like there aren't still a couple of weaknesses. Key ones which need to be addressed.

This isn't to say those mentioned players don't have a future at the club. They absolutely do and are good enough to provide a quality which they have in abundance. But it is, and I stand by this point, critical that we don't have to rely long term on having to select two players in a starting eleven who lack a couple of key components which would elevate our game to the next level.
Did we go long against Roma, maybe i should re-watch it.
I like your post/response you have an opinion and i agree/disagree with aspects of it but that doesn't mean you or I are wrong.

I cant speak for anyone else's post but i dont think the spirited defence of Henderson/Milner is actually true. He praises them when he has to, please provide a incident when he has defended them for no apparent reason. In regards to Milner didnt he break the record for CL assists last season....

I will hold my hand up and say City have a more technically skilled midfield than ours. De Bruyne, Silva’s x2, Gundogan are very good. But that doesn't mean they are better in terms of the teams style/approach. If you gave Pep our midfield and vice versa they would both struggle. Why? Because they are doing a job they are not designed or familiar with.

You highlight the issue of game control. From last season we have improved immensely in this area, we actually dictate games which is what the majority of successful teams do. I dont recall the Milner incident but didnt Salah make a bad pass against PSG where Mbappe scored...players will make mistakes thats a given, but at the moment we have the players Klopp wants or is afforded.

Out of interest, who would you bring in to improve our midfield/team?
 

Jaytinho

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Hmmmmm Don Balon (I think they are relatively high up on the bullshit scale) say €50m (£44m) should be enough for James Rodriguez. I would be all over this if true. People questioned Shaqiri's work ethic as well. But James is a player you would want for his head and not his running. Perfect to just sit between Fabinho and the front 3 and just feed like crazy while taking the occasional cracker outside the box. He does have a weird injury history though

Link: James Rodriguez will not remain at Real Madrid and he has a destination
 

redfanman

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Hmmmmm Don Balon (I think they are relatively high up on the bullshit scale) say €50m (£44m) should be enough for James Rodriguez. I would be all over this if true. People questioned Shaqiri's work ethic as well. But James is a player you would want for his head and not his running. Perfect to just sit between Fabinho and the front 3 and just feed like crazy while taking the occasional cracker outside the box. He does have a weird injury history though

Link: James Rodriguez will not remain at Real Madrid and he has a destination
Not sure from your description he is a player that we would sign. running is a key part of our game.
 

jackh1092

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No chance James is signing for LFC. Massive wages, and as redfanman says, he's not an LFC player.
 

Flobs

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Hmmmmm Don Balon (I think they are relatively high up on the bullshit scale) say €50m (£44m) should be enough for James Rodriguez. I would be all over this if true. People questioned Shaqiri's work ethic as well. But James is a player you would want for his head and not his running. Perfect to just sit between Fabinho and the front 3 and just feed like crazy while taking the occasional cracker outside the box. He does have a weird injury history though

Link: James Rodriguez will not remain at Real Madrid and he has a destination
Sounds like a player for 4411 like Maddison or Fekir. We do need that link man when we drop deep and defend (we struggle with Firmino dropping deep to defend on the counter but that defensive duty is also very valuable to us. I reckon the way out for us is some faster players to push up quickly when we win the ball back. The likes of AOC and Keita could help us out here in the future. If we want to go down the Lampard style N°10 route then why not Maddison? Perhaps wouldn't be cheaper but wages would be easier and in a season or 2 his PL credentials well established.
 

Herb

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Hmmmmm Don Balon (I think they are relatively high up on the bullshit scale) say €50m (£44m) should be enough for James Rodriguez. I would be all over this if true. People questioned Shaqiri's work ethic as well. But James is a player you would want for his head and not his running. Perfect to just sit between Fabinho and the front 3 and just feed like crazy while taking the occasional cracker outside the box. He does have a weird injury history though

Link: James Rodriguez will not remain at Real Madrid and he has a destination
I wonder just how good he actually is. Had a cracking World Cup in 2014 but then Madrid have tried to get him out on some kind of weird loan with an option to buy deal that Bayern aren’t interested in taking up. Two elite clubs not fancying you usually points to some kind of issue.
 

Thomas1195

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If we want to go down the Lampard style N°10 route then why not Maddison? Perhaps wouldn't be cheaper but wages would be easier and in a season or 2 his PL credentials well established.
He is also a set-piece and free-kick expert.
 

Jaytinho

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I wonder just how good he actually is. Had a cracking World Cup in 2014 but then Madrid have tried to get him out on some kind of weird loan with an option to buy deal that Bayern aren’t interested in taking up. Two elite clubs not fancying you usually points to some kind of issue.
There is a combination of him being sick of Germany lol and Bayern not looking to quickly open negotiations with his agent, so the departure seems like a mutual thing. I think the issue could be work ethic, and I also think Uli Hoeness is a factor as well, the man can really be an asshole. He just told one of his longest serving CBs in Boateng that he should leave, just like that. £44m in this market for a player of James quality is abit suspicious
 

Jaytinho

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He is also a set-piece and free-kick expert.
So is James, he is a dead ball specialist. But, if you look at it, Maddison probably has a better work ethic. But when it comes to technical ability, James is ahead there
 

Mousecat

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I will hold my hand up and say City have a more technically skilled midfield than ours. De Bruyne, Silva’s x2, Gundogan are very good. But that doesn't mean they are better in terms of the teams style/approach.
I'd say they were better. Better than the one we've had this season anyway.

Better than the one with a fully firing Keita and Chamberlain in it?
I doubt it. But we haven't had that so far and we've missed their qualities.

If you gave Pep our midfield and vice versa they would both struggle.
This is one of the reasons why I think we should be optimistic for the future.

If you gave us City's midfield we'd have won the league with more than 100 points and if you'd given City our midfield I think they're be lucky to get into the 90s.

This is the crux of the debate really. We're not all that stylistically different in regards to our approach. This isn't a comparison between a team who favour high intensity and pressure over technique and creativity, and vice versa. Klopp's Liverpool vs Wenger's Arsenal yes. But not City.

They're as intense in their pressing game as anyone. It's a fundamental part of their game. They don't accept technique and creativity vs work rate.

Their most influential and creative players are all those who at their core are hyper competitive athletes. De Bruyne, Silva, Sterling... the work these lads put in is immense.

And this is what we've got to overcome. And Klopp knows this. Hard working isn't enough for this Liverpool team. You've got to be a level above hard working. You've got to be obsessed. Demonic.

The City players will hunt the ball down like... fucking... animals
They're relentless..

And.....

When they get it, they've got technical skills and IQ on a par with anyone on the planet.

And then they're juiced to the gills on money...

The harsh reality we have now in this present time is that in any other league season... in any other era, this Liverpool team would be dominant... back to back league titles... three in a row... maybe four.. whatever. Nobody else could compete. Not out of the current group. And Milner and Henderson would totally be cool in that situation. But now we need to go that bit further, because possibly the only manager who could better what we've done this season, is in charge of Manchester City. And there you go.

So, we need someone capable of putting in the work rate of Henderson, the work rate of Milner, who also just happens to be super technical and intelligent as well.

That's the model for the player who is the required level while Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp are in charge if you want to win this league. It means that otherwise really good players aren't good enough for the first team. And that's just the way it is.

Out of interest, who would you bring in to improve our midfield/team?
I'll answer this by actually taking your own point that you made above. I'd take Bernardo Silva as the prototype for exactly what we need to add to our midfield. Not only can he add creativity, but he rotates through a few positions and has the quality to play a really high level in each one. He plays high intensity and quick turnover football as well as he plays tempo control possession football.

There are so many things similar about Pep and Klopp, even if there are also key differences. I think we really need to understand that. They key difference is the amount of money they've had to spend and the size of the job they've had to do. So I don't think it's right to make a complete judgement on how Klopp wants his ultimate football team to play.

That's what Liverpool will be. for the first time in his career, he'll be able to put together his best team in his best vision, without having to play feeder for someone else. To properly put together and then refine his model.

Maybe that will be players like Hendo and Milner long term. But more likely scenario is that it'll be with players who take their work levels and passion, and add to it some more technique, long range shooting, and creativity.
 
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KYRed18

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City do not have pressing monsters in central midfield winning the ball back. They create.

Just look at how many tackles per game they do:
Gundogan 0.7
David Silva 0.9
De Bruyne (better) 1.2
Ours;
Wijnaldum (our worst) 1.1
Henderson 1.5
Milner 1.6
Keita 1.6


This.

City's press is used to rush opposition into giving up possession. Most teams feel the press closing, they kick the ball long. However, they were so compact defensively, there is no one up top to give chase resulting in a change of possession back to City.

We on the other hand, prefer to use the press to create an offensive opportunity. Our midfielders do create, just they create by tackling an opponent or intercepting a pass as they lure an opponent into a trap. Do I believe a B Silva would find a role in our team, yes (personally think he is absolute class). I again think Hendo (offered a long extension when Klopp was here), Gini, Ox, and Keita are aligned with the boss's idea of what a great midfield should look like.