Who would you buy?

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
17,884
Yep. They are different. But there could have been a couple more of them and nobody would have argued they were unfair. We really didn't deserve to win those games I mentioned. But we did. That's luck.

Don't wanna be saying that so much next season. Want us to create enough chances that any games we do draw we could say we were unlucky based on weight of chances. Only way we'll do that is becoming more creative in open play and scoring goals from the midfield
In football you make your own luck. Everyone that’s played any level knows this.

Is Man city simply just lucky that most teams go to the emptihad with a lazy template on how to handle the game and invest more thought on the game after than the city game? , that’s Pepe’s luck, but he made it.

Flick to origis goal vs Everton, the moment was luck, no one could tactically plan for that to happen, but the ‘luck’ doesn’t happen unless a series of factors requiring hard work, dedication, belief and tactical adherence preceded it.

It’s not like Jurgen was happily playing poker with the bench when in unexpected moment occurred. It’s not like origi just chanced upon challenging Pickford becuase there was nothing else to do.

You create your own luck in this game. About the only internal thing you cannot control is injuries, but even then, you can mitigate a lot of what used to be seen as ‘bad luck’ by modern training techniques.

So in reality you are correct, there’s an element of luck in a lot of results throughout a season.
 

bazza66

TIA Oldie, still in the Youth Team though
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2003
Messages
1,142
In football you make your own luck. Everyone that’s played any level knows this.

Flick to origis goal vs Everton, the moment was luck, no one could tactically plan for that to happen, but the ‘luck’ doesn’t happen unless a series of factors requiring hard work, dedication, belief and tactical adherence preceded it.

It’s not like Jurgen was happily playing poker with the bench when in unexpected moment occurred. It’s not like origi just chanced upon challenging Pickford becuase there was nothing else to do.
Sorry redbj, but that's more than a little naive (at least I hope you were being naive...)

A good look on Grand Old Team would have given you a multitude of more reasonable explanations. deals with: the Devil (or as we know him, 'Uncle Nick')/ FA/ UEFA/ FIFA/ Peter Johnson/ Sky/ Sayer's/ Premier League/ Ethel Austin/ Bilderberg Group/ UNESCO/ and Wirral Grammar School.

Origi was brilliantly coached to be JUST in the right place, at JUST the right time. Yeah, right.
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Which I referenced in terms of City's luck. They got away with it last season by not having to cope without him too often despite him being 33 and getting away with professional fouls with impunity.

City not having cover for him last year is something they got away with last year. Signing someone now doesn't change that for last year.

If you want(ed) to discuss how they've potentially militated incase they're not so lucky this year then sure, Rodri is a potentially astute signing.

Weird that in order to suggest that I'm somehow unhinged for not comprehending, you have to deliberately edit out the part of my post where I specifically allow for the fact that you may have gone off on a tangent.
What the hell?

You're taking about Fernandinho because you're implying they mightnt be so lucky next season. That's what any rational person would take from what you're saying, because the context is; what's likely next season. otherwise what's the point saying it...We're not going to play last season back over again are we...

And I'm saying they've plugged that hole now, and they'll probably plug others with the money they have.

So, if you're in the business of making moot points, you're doing well for yourself.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
14,234
What the hell?

You're taking about Fernandinho because you're implying they mightnt be so lucky next season. That's what any rational person would take from what you're saying, because the context is; what's likely next season. otherwise what's the point saying it...We're not going to play last season back over again are we...

And I'm saying they've plugged that hole now, and they'll probably plug others with the money they have.

So, if you're in the business of making moot points, you're doing well for yourself.
Absolutely it's fair to observe that if they don't/didn't bring in quality cover for Fernandinho this season they may not be as lucky as they were last season.

I'll take your post as your tacit acceptance that City got lucky with Fernandinho's availability during a season they had no adequate replacement for him. That luck contributed directly to their resulting points total.

As any luck we got did to ours.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
22,922
You not the full shilling mate?
You make a long post about everyone having the right to an opinion, and it’s fine to disagree.

And then tell someone they aren’t the full shilling for not agreeing with you.

This is your last warning. Next time it’s points.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,210
One thing we have with Klopp is our team is always evolving and improving through the season whereas City and other teams create a "finished" product during the summer (through training and transfers). They sometimes tweak that product in the Winter window but that's about it.

Lots of stats incoming for those that want to ignore them but looking at it in a rough table with all figures on a per game basis:

LFC points scored conceded
17/18
1st 13: 1.77 1.92 1.38
2nd 13: 2.15 2.62 1
Last 12: 2 2.08 0.58
18/19
1st 13: 2.54 2 0.38
2nd 13: 2.46 2.54 0.77
Last 12: 2.67 2.5 0.58

Meanwhile City:

MCFC points scored conceded
17/18
1st 13: 2.85 3.23 0.62
2nd 13: 2.46 2.46 0.85
Last 12: 2.58 2.67 0.67
18/19
1st 13: 2.69 3.08 0.38
2nd 13: 2.07 2.46 1.15
Last 12: 3 1.92 0.25

Our highest scoring, but also highest conceding, period is mid season on these tables (only ran up by me on way to work so hoping no errors). Generally though you can see our gradual improvement across each season and especially both seasons put together.

City have a real dip mid season both years but generally start and finish strong. Final third of last season you can literally see that they played more reserved with their goals scored dropping way below the kind of numbers they usually posted and they dramatically improved an already brilliant defensive record. We really did force them into desperately clawing on for 1 nil victories with defence first, win at all costs being their mantras.

All of this was supposed to support a throw away comment I wanted to make in that; No matter what happens in the transfer window Klopp will still continue his progress with us next year. We will continue to improve. City are a finished product (largely built on the shoulders of an aging playing squad which will need to start being replaced). We will eventually catch anf overtake them. It'll go quicker and smoother if we recruit the right players at the right time but it's better to get the right players at the wrong time (wait for them) than to get the wrong players at the right time.

We all have our opinions (and that's all they are) about what the team needs adding to it. Klopp will have his opinion too even if publicly he says different. Theres nothing wrong with debating what the team needs and discussing our opinions. Think the doom and gloom predictions are going too far though.
 

GermanRed

from doubters to believers to sky-high achievers
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
3,957

If Lovren decides to leave (don't think it will happen) and Aké is available for under £40m (Bournemouth have already signed a similar player in Lloyd Kelly) i would hope we would go for him as he could also cover LB.
 

Jimmyscase

DoctorJimmy: knee-high flying tackle specialist
Joined
May 18, 2016
Messages
5,113
One thing we have with Klopp is our team is always evolving and improving through the season whereas City and other teams create a "finished" product during the summer (through training and transfers). They sometimes tweak that product in the Winter window but that's about it.

Lots of stats incoming for those that want to ignore them but looking at it in a rough table with all figures on a per game basis:

LFC points scored conceded
17/18
1st 13: 1.77 1.92 1.38
2nd 13: 2.15 2.62 1
Last 12: 2 2.08 0.58
18/19
1st 13: 2.54 2 0.38
2nd 13: 2.46 2.54 0.77
Last 12: 2.67 2.5 0.58

Meanwhile City:

MCFC points scored conceded
17/18
1st 13: 2.85 3.23 0.62
2nd 13: 2.46 2.46 0.85
Last 12: 2.58 2.67 0.67
18/19
1st 13: 2.69 3.08 0.38
2nd 13: 2.07 2.46 1.15
Last 12: 3 1.92 0.25

Our highest scoring, but also highest conceding, period is mid season on these tables (only ran up by me on way to work so hoping no errors). Generally though you can see our gradual improvement across each season and especially both seasons put together.

City have a real dip mid season both years but generally start and finish strong. Final third of last season you can literally see that they played more reserved with their goals scored dropping way below the kind of numbers they usually posted and they dramatically improved an already brilliant defensive record. We really did force them into desperately clawing on for 1 nil victories with defence first, win at all costs being their mantras.

All of this was supposed to support a throw away comment I wanted to make in that; No matter what happens in the transfer window Klopp will still continue his progress with us next year. We will continue to improve. City are a finished product (largely built on the shoulders of an aging playing squad which will need to start being replaced). We will eventually catch anf overtake them. It'll go quicker and smoother if we recruit the right players at the right time but it's better to get the right players at the wrong time (wait for them) than to get the wrong players at the right time.

We all have our opinions (and that's all they are) about what the team needs adding to it. Klopp will have his opinion too even if publicly he says different. Theres nothing wrong with debating what the team needs and discussing our opinions. Think the doom and gloom predictions are going too far though.
I think there's something very familiar about your post....it's very similar to the one I've had working away at the back of my mind for a couple of weeks now. What's notable to me is that our super consistent 18/19 is much more like City's 17/18 than their own 18/19 was. Klopp was able to sustain performance by 'mimicking' Guardiola's approach to winning psychology (momentum built right from the first fixtures). Whereas Guardiola was forced to find an emergency route to his second title. A route that was very very dependent on narrow victories at the end, as you rightly point out.
 
Last edited:

Foldy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,411

William Clarke

REDSHIRT ~ I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
2,246

If Lovren decides to leave (don't think it will happen) and Aké is available for under £40m (Bournemouth have already signed a similar player in Lloyd Kelly) i would hope we would go for him as he could also cover LB.
Don't quote me on it, but I'm sure I have read recently that one of the Manchester clubs are making a play for him. Yeah, and I agree with you, I would hope we'd go for him because he's a decent defender in the Dutch mould.

p.s. Ha, @Foldy has just beaten me to it and has given us the relevant info on Ake's possible transfer.
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Absolutely it's fair to observe that if they don't/didn't bring in quality cover for Fernandinho this season they may not be as lucky as they were last season.

I'll take your post as your tacit acceptance that City got lucky with Fernandinho's availability during a season they had no adequate replacement for him. That luck contributed directly to their resulting points total.

As any luck we got did to ours.
I'm talking lucky in regards to how the games which each team played, played out competitively. I've made that point very clear. Now you want to talk about injuries, and focus specifically on Fernandinho?

Luck with injuries isn't what I'm talking about and this conversation is to do with what the likely points total next season, not last.

Besides which, you're deliberately overlooking the fact, which somebody else has already pointed out, that City's points total isn't a one off. Now you can trace back through Guardiola's career and find us all the players you think he got lucky with, and then we can use that logic to give us hope that maybe one season, all that good luck will come back in the form of a flood of injuries so horrific, they'll be relegated.

Just don't expect me to be investing in it. There's more to what they did last season than keeping Fernandinho fit.

Now if you're asserting that we had our luck and they had theirs, then I'll agree that you're pointing out the obvious.

The disagreement here is that you think we had an equal share, and I'm saying no, we didn't. City controlled their games to a better extent than we did, while we got quite a bit lucky in that run in. If you're suggesting that was all because of the fitness of the one player, you're entitled to your opinion.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
22,922
Luck takes many forms. Teams can be lucky with the bounce if the ball, with injuries and fitness, with decisions, and with external factors and off field distractions.

It’s not reasonable to say ‘yeah, but I’m just talking about this form of luck’.

City got plenty of luck over the course of the season. Decisions, by and large, went for for them. As Kopstar said, relying on a 34 year old midfield lynchpin and not having that blow up in their face is lucky. And let’s not forget the biggest slice of luck of all - the billion pounds that has been pumped into the club sanction free.

Did City control games better. Possibly, but I don’t think the gap is as great as it’s being stated by Mousecat. It was noted throughout the season that we’d matured as a team, sacrificing our cavalier attacking in favour of a more controlled game. I don’t recall any game, aside from the Ev, where we swung the result on an outrageous slice of luck.

Besides if Kompany hadn’t lashed in a 30 yard swerving GOTS contender to beat Leicester - a goal he has never scored in his career - we win the league.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
14,234
I'm talking lucky in regards to how the games which each team played, played out competitively. I've made that point very clear. Now you want to talk about injuries, and focus specifically on Fernandinho?

Luck with injuries isn't what I'm talking about and this conversation is to do with what the likely points total next season, not last.

Besides which, you're deliberately overlooking the fact, which somebody else has already pointed out, that City's points total isn't a one off. Now you can trace back through Guardiola's career and find us all the players you think he got lucky with, and then we can use that logic to give us hope that maybe one season, all that good luck will come back in the form of a flood of injuries so horrific, they'll be relegated.

Just don't expect me to be investing in it. There's more to what they did last season than keeping Fernandinho fit.

Now if you're asserting that we had our luck and they had theirs, then I'll agree that you're pointing out the obvious.

The disagreement here is that you think we had an equal share, and I'm saying no, we didn't. City controlled their games to a better extent than we did, while we got quite a bit lucky in that run in. If you're suggesting that was all because of the fitness of the one player, you're entitled to your opinion.
Why categorise luck? In games where we had Fabinho we exercised a good deal of control, concerns we were vulnerable were very rare. Similar to Fernandinho for City.

That City didn't have to cope without him on too many occasions (and not once against a team that finished in the top 8) was extremely fortunate. I'm citing that as one example of City getting lucky but it's not the only one. All teams will benefit/suffer from innumerable amounts of luck (good and bad). It becomes impossible to say which team had more luck than another or, rather, the extent to which they benefited/suffered.

What I disputed was your view that because you felt we were lucky to get as many wins as we did (/suffer only one defeat) that we overachieved in getting 97 points whilst simultaneously saying that City's 98 points was not inflated by good fortune at all. Of course, you now describe the point that "we had our luck and they had theirs" as "pointing out the obvious". :rolleyes:
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,964
City won more of their games more easily than we did last season. On the xG side of it they were winning games with plenty of margin to spare; less so for us. I didn’t look at it late in the season, but presumably it narrowed slightly, as City went on a run of narrow wins (buggers!)

They now have two seasons under their belts of being a 100 point, or 98 point team. Plus even before Guardiola arrived they had won the Prem. We have one season of 97 points. We still have more to prove than they do about whether or not we can hit the same total again. Currently it’s an outlier for us, but there are reasons for us to be filled with hope.

Without seeing odds or anything, Man City will be favorites for the Prem again next time, and we will be second. It’s up to us to do it again and hopefully go one better.

We have a heck of a lot going for us, and most fans can list it all out. Minor concerns extend to depth in the attacking positions, with our main trio still going strong on the international stage - so “last” season is still “this” season for them! We also need a bit of cover here and there, especially at left back.

There’s still plenty of time left in the window, and we also have some good players on the fringes we will get a look at in pre-season. Just got tickets for the pre season friendly at Notre Dame on July 19th for me and the lad. I talked with my brother back in England yesterday, and we both agreed... watch out for Brewster!
 

Jimmyscase

DoctorJimmy: knee-high flying tackle specialist
Joined
May 18, 2016
Messages
5,113
I think the club is approaching this weird slightly shortened transfer window the right way, because it is very likely that hardly ant of the main clubs in Europe get what they're looking for very until very late or even in January next year. City have splashed the oily cash on a €35 million player and paid €70million.
 

William Clarke

REDSHIRT ~ I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
2,246
My only concern, and it's not a worry as yet, is do we have enough strength in depth. We did brilliantly at the end of last season, but there were times when it looked as though we were running on empty. I'm hoping we can bring in a couple of the young Academy lads and they make a good impression otherwise we'll be looking quite threadbare. We still need cover for Robbo and another striker to back up our three amigos. It could be argued that Shak or Ox could fill in, but only time will tell on that score.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
22,922
I’m endlessly fascinated by this tendency to assume everyone else is going to improve and we won’t.

The most important thing for us, regardless of signings, is that this is a squad growing and maturing together. We will be better next year - there is another 10% for us next year just by the squad being a year more experienced and familiar with each other.
 

GermanRed

from doubters to believers to sky-high achievers
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
3,957
I’m endlessly fascinated by this tendency to assume everyone else is going to improve and we won’t.

The most important thing for us, regardless of signings, is that this is a squad growing and maturing together. We will be better next year - there is another 10% for us next year just by the squad being a year more experienced and familiar with each other.
+
Robertson said he will get better
Gomez missed half the season and yet to reach his full potential
TAA yet to reach his full potential
Fabinho wasn't a starter until december i think
Lallana and Ox missed almost the whole season
Keita had many injuries and yet to reach his full potential
Origi yet to reach his full potential
Shaqiri played just few games but he delivered almost every time.

Not sure what the Front3 can do in terms of improvement but even without them i would say 15-20% improvement is possible.
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,964
I’m endlessly fascinated by this tendency to assume everyone else is going to improve and we won’t.

The most important thing for us, regardless of signings, is that this is a squad growing and maturing together. We will be better next year - there is another 10% for us next year just by the squad being a year more experienced and familiar with each other.
Just for the purposes of discussion, how would you quantify the improvement in points haul you expect? Presumably you don’t mean a 10% improvement in that, as that would give us 106 points?

For the record I think we will improve too, but I’m not sure about a couple of things. As things stand I expect the defence to be about the same - brilliant, and possibly even better than last season if Gomez stays fit and partners Van Dijk for the bulk of the season.

I expect the biggest improvement to be in the midfield, even if we just keep the current personnel. It took us a while last year to get Fabinho bedded in, but when that happened we looked more dominant and in control through the middle. I expect that to be the case from the start this time, and hopefully we will be even better going forward through midfield, with Henderson off the leash from ‘minding the shop’ as a number 6, and more specifically, we should expect a lot more from Keita and Ox than what they were able to bring last season.

Up front is my biggest concern. Our main three players are still going and haven’t had a break yet. Origi did well last season and has developed a certain cult status for his exploits. Can’t knock any of that. If he builds on it he will be an important player for us to call on. But then again, he has also shown that he can lose his focus and his mojo, and drift along on the periphery of a game. Which Origi will come to the fore?

And as for Brewster, if he bursts onto the scene like we are all hoping he will, perhaps we won’t look back, and we will have another diamond coming through that will quickly be valued in the £100M+ bracket. That’s what we all want. But since he hasn’t really got started yet, it’s hard to know how it will pan out.

So in summary, I expect the back five to be about the same, which is very good indeed, and possibly even slightly better than last season if Gomez plays the bulk of the time alongside VVD. I expect the midfield to be better than last season, and hopefully we will have a few more goals from the middle too.

I have a question mark as to whether the attack will be as good as last season, for reasons stated above. It might be slightly worse, about the same, or even better, and I wouldn’t be surprised at any of those outcomes.

I’d like to sign another good attacker to try to improve the odds of it being better overall.
 
Last edited:

LFCFFC

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
1,788
Transfers aside, I'm very keen to see what Ox can do this season.

I know it was a significant knee injury and that can come with a host of subsequent joint/muscular issues even when he's back to full fitness, but he really brings an additional quality to our midfield, on top of the requisite pressing and physicality.
 

Flobs

FADA
Joined
Apr 20, 2015
Messages
9,971
Not sure what the Front3 can do in terms of improvement
Salah can score a lot more goals
Mané and Firmino a few more goals.
Firmino can be a bit more aggressive and create a lot more meaning both Salah and Mané will score a lot more over and above their own personal improvement.
City are going to look like wimps next to us next season. :celebrating: