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Who would you buy?

Zinedine Biscan

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Not arguing with anything you've saod, I think you're right. I just don't think Moreno was our 2nd choice LB.

Although it is a good position to be in when our biggest worry is who back ups back up is going to be.
Indeed, I'd be getting more concerned if we had any obvious gaps in the actual first-XI that didn't appear to be being filled. Obviously we'd be ok even if nothing changed, but I'd hate for a fixable issue to end up the difference between 1st and 2nd.
 

Billy Biskix

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Reddy, who seems to have become close to being an official mouthpiece for the club, made it clear the other day that we dropped out over the price. I remember, because it surprised me. I forget which thread it was in, she posted a big thing on Reddit or somewhere defending her coverage of the transfer window as a whole, and that was part of it.

He might well have chosen them anyway over playing time, but what is basically the official report at this time says we didn't give him a choice to make.

It was this thread:


You replied to it by the way lol:
It was Reddy who said Kelly chose Bournemouth because of playing time. She said it in her article on ESPN.

Liverpool had hoped to sign Lloyd Kelly from Bristol City to deputise for Robertson at left-back but were trumped to the £13m deal by Bournemouth, who could guarantee more minutes.


The article about us dropping out over the price appeared in the Echo (Paul Gorst).
 

JustHitMyHead

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Indeed, I'd be getting more concerned if we had any obvious gaps in the actual first-XI that didn't appear to be being filled. Obviously we'd be ok even if nothing changed, but I'd hate for a fixable issue to end up the difference between 1st and 2nd.
Weird thing is that we trust Klopp, Edwards and our scouts to be able to find and buy us a new forward or left-back... but we don't trust them if they believe we may have that player on our books and can make a better player out of them than what we can buy.

That's under the assumption that we know our youth better than we know someone else's. Fair assumption I think.
 

Mascot88

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If we can't find the right player it's better to do that than bring in a badly matched player or negative influence. And no doubt by hook or by crook Klopp will get us through like when we ended up with Hoever and Fabinho playing CB together. But it's not ideal and may get us kicked out of a competition or two next season like it did last season.
I think you’re right that Klopp will find a way.

Personally, I wouldn’t replace Lovren (if he moves on). I’d be very happy to see Fabinho start ten games at Centre Back - those where he doesn’t particularly need to play as a centre back in the traditional sense. And then you have the two young lads coming through.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I think you’re right that Klopp will find a way.

Personally, I wouldn’t replace Lovren (if he moves on). I’d be very happy to see Fabinho start ten games at Centre Back - those where he doesn’t particularly need to play as a centre back in the traditional sense. And then you have the two young lads coming through.
Would agree with this btw. I'm less concerned about our depth at CB, I suspect VDB won't be a million miles off getting some games.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I think you’re right that Klopp will find a way.

Personally, I wouldn’t replace Lovren (if he moves on). I’d be very happy to see Fabinho start ten games at Centre Back - those where he doesn’t particularly need to play as a centre back in the traditional sense. And then you have the two young lads coming through.
I always argued that we needed to bring a younger, more robust CB in with an eye for being the Lovren/Matip replacement (along with Hoever).

I could also see the point, if bringing a CB in, in bringing in the best available and if that was De Ligt so be it even if he did cost a lot.

If we brought in a more senior/experienced CB I'd literally be wanting Lovren to call time on his career here and a mutually acceptable sale to a decent club as it would be the best for all involved.

If he moves on now then..... well ok.... probably cope..... but.... well we won't cope with everything.

We've a lot of numbers and quality in central midfield (despite many posters not realising it as there are no goal scoring/offensive playmaker types, a role we don't utilize in Klopps version of 433). So if midfielders need to provide cover to the back 4 we'll probably cope in midfield.

And we've got a versatile CB in Gomez who can cover both fullbacks and versatile mids that are options too along with a degree of academy talent. So we can probably cope at full back with what we have if we need to too.

And Gomez has had rotten luck with injuries and Matip and Lovren are injury prone but we have Fabinho and the two young promising lads in emergency situations so we will probably cope if that's what we go with at CB.

And Lovren is our 4th choice and an expensive asset and we've got good options in 5th, 6th and 7th choice so if he left we would probably cope.

But you can't keep rolling the dice. No further strengthening at full back, Lovren being allowed to leave without a senior CB in, eventually luck will sour on us. Under those conditions a medium length injury to Fabinho practically cripples us. It would mean Gomez needing to be available nearly all the time, VvD, Robertson and Alexander Arnold almost never being rested which could heighten their injury risk. Matip is almost guaranteed to miss significant playing time. We'll have knocks, rotation and few other absences here and there.

60+ games, we struggled this season at times. We played 53 this season. Yes Alexander-Arnold, Gomez, Robertson and Matip all ended this season better than they started but that doesn't give you more bodies. Same number of bodies with same chances of injuries. New kid isn't, yet, any better to have in the squad than what we had in the academy last season. Its probably an improvement but that's not guaranteed. Losing Moreno, we had Clyne for half of last season too, losing Lovren as well? There was a point last season when Klopp was going to play Henderson at CB for a game because of injuries but he (ironically) picked up an injury.

We've got the money for transfers, we've got room on the wage bill, its not going to hurt us if senior players see out their contracts and leave for free. I guess I'm just getting worried about how many risks we seem to be possibly taking.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Yes, because it is. This is a very simple idea which you are needlessly complicating.
They were lucky. In games against us luck or refereeing errors accounted for them getting more points than they should and us getting less. They went on to win the league by one point. They cheated to build an indestructible, mega squad and have been lucky that sanctions haven't yet affected them too.
 

Mascot88

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So obvious and yet you didn't accept that it contributed towards City's 98 points but we were lucky to get 97.
Personally, I think city knew exactly what they were doing allowing that ball all but 11mm over their goal line. Luck had nothing to do with it. :D
 

Mascot88

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I always argued that we needed to bring a younger, more robust CB in with an eye for being the Lovren/Matip replacement (along with Hoever).

I could also see the point, if bringing a CB in, in bringing in the best available and if that was De Ligt so be it even if he did cost a lot.

If we brought in a more senior/experienced CB I'd literally be wanting Lovren to call time on his career here and a mutually acceptable sale to a decent club as it would be the best for all involved.

If he moves on now then..... well ok.... probably cope..... but.... well we won't cope with everything.

We've a lot of numbers and quality in central midfield (despite many posters not realising it as there are no goal scoring/offensive playmaker types, a role we don't utilize in Klopps version of 433). So if midfielders need to provide cover to the back 4 we'll probably cope in midfield.

And we've got a versatile CB in Gomez who can cover both fullbacks and versatile mids that are options too along with a degree of academy talent. So we can probably cope at full back with what we have if we need to too.

And Gomez has had rotten luck with injuries and Matip and Lovren are injury prone but we have Fabinho and the two young promising lads in emergency situations so we will probably cope if that's what we go with at CB.

And Lovren is our 4th choice and an expensive asset and we've got good options in 5th, 6th and 7th choice so if he left we would probably cope.

But you can't keep rolling the dice. No further strengthening at full back, Lovren being allowed to leave without a senior CB in, eventually luck will sour on us. Under those conditions a medium length injury to Fabinho practically cripples us. It would mean Gomez needing to be available nearly all the time, VvD, Robertson and Alexander Arnold almost never being rested which could heighten their injury risk. Matip is almost guaranteed to miss significant playing time. We'll have knocks, rotation and few other absences here and there.

60+ games, we struggled this season at times. We played 53 this season. Yes Alexander-Arnold, Gomez, Robertson and Matip all ended this season better than they started but that doesn't give you more bodies. Same number of bodies with same chances of injuries. New kid isn't, yet, any better to have in the squad than what we had in the academy last season. Its probably an improvement but that's not guaranteed. Losing Moreno, we had Clyne for half of last season too, losing Lovren as well? There was a point last season when Klopp was going to play Henderson at CB for a game because of injuries but he (ironically) picked up an injury.

We've got the money for transfers, we've got room on the wage bill, its not going to hurt us if senior players see out their contracts and leave for free. I guess I'm just getting worried about how many risks we seem to be possibly taking.
We’ll see what happens, but I accept your point about stretching too far.

The thing that I think nobody really takes into account is that being one of the best teams in Europe, clocking 97 points, and winning Big Cup also brings a whole boat load of problems. Different ones to being crap, and nice ones to have, for sure. But there is an assumption that now we are where we are, everything is easy, and it isn’t.

One of the big issues for Klopp is that he has to consider that his squad aren’t just stats and numbers. They are young men with ego, and sensitivities, and all the same fallibilities and insecurities as everyone else. If Klopp had bought De Ligt, our current defence has every right ask, after being the best in the Country why the fuck the gaffer is spending £75m on improving it, and which one of them is getting binned off.

We know how much Klopp values team spirit, and how important it is to his methods. But it’s also very fragile.

So having had the team perform to such an incredible level last year, Klopp has to be very careful where and what he adds.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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We’ll see what happens, but I accept your point about stretching too far.

The thing that I think nobody really takes into account is that being one of the best teams in Europe, clocking 97 points, and winning Big Cup also brings a whole boat load of problems. Different ones to being crap, and nice ones to have, for sure. But there is an assumption that now we are where we are, everything is easy, and it isn’t.

One of the big issues for Klopp is that he has to consider that his squad aren’t just stats and numbers. They are young men with ego, and sensitivities, and all the same fallibilities and insecurities as everyone else. If Klopp had bought De Ligt, our current defence has every right ask, after being the best in the Country why the fuck the gaffer is spending £75m on improving it, and which one of them is getting binned off.

We know how much Klopp values team spirit, and how important it is to his methods. But it’s also very fragile.

So having had the team perform to such an incredible level last year, Klopp has to be very careful where and what he adds.
I think you massively over state this.

We have/will lose players from that defence and the players will be acutely aware of how stretched they were. How some were played when needing a rest, how Hoever got an unplanned debut (that thankfully didn't go bad and destroy his confidence and progress) and how Fabinho who was 6th or 7th choice at CB ended up having to be picked for starting a game.

They're also ambitious and will know there will be more games and more trophies they will want to win.

Also compare to midfield the year before. We were losing Can but that was about it, we had made a champions league final and finished top 4. As well as the planned deal for Keita we also added Fabinho and very publicly tried to add Fekir. It didn't harm the egos or team spirit in our midfield. If anything it helped create a bounce and players like Wijnaldum and Henderson kicked on over the course of the season and showed more passion and motivation. It helped drive the unit and create a more positive situation.

I really don't think footballers are as fragile as you make out. They don't see a new guy arrive and start sulking and feel their time is up they think "shit man how much better are we going to get? We're going to kick some ass this year" and always assume they personally are good enough to still play.

Besides nobody is asking for an increase in the numbers of players in defence they are only asking for an increase of quality and suitability.

Moreno and Clyne provided a season and a half of cover, both are probably leaving, one player who is a better match to our needs and better quality level replacing them is all we need.

If Lovren left somebody replacing him who is more reliable on the availability front would be essential and if that player was also top quality it would help us improve and kick on too (personally don't think this is going to happen this window now, think the new kid and Hoever will be prepared this season to, between them, replace Lovren next season and Matip a season or two after that).
 

Jah_Pool

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I'd love to see us sign Zaha who can play anywhere across the front three. Make CP an offer of $50 mill + Wilson for Zaha. I'd also want us to bring in one of Coutinho/Fernandes to improve the middle of the park.I'd also sign Tierney who can play either right or left back. The signings of Tierney and Zaha would throw a wrench in Arsenal's plans as well.
 

Iluvatar

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I'd love to see us sign Zaha who can play anywhere across the front three. Make CP an offer of $50 mill + Wilson for Zaha. I'd also want us to bring in one of Coutinho/Fernandes to improve the middle of the park.I'd also sign Tierney who can play either right or left back. The signings of Tierney and Zaha would throw a wrench in Arsenal's plans as well.
Why would Tierney or Zaha come here to be a backup? I get their other alternative is Arsenal but it’s Arsenal with a guaranteed starting spot and the chance to push for Europe and silverware via cups.

This is why it’s so dam hard for us to bring in the level of quality we need, they simply won’t come. Salah, Mane, Trent, Robertson are worldclass, so if you play that position you are coming in as 2nd choice and considering how robust they are you could be looking at games in the cup and/or a few in the league to rest only.

It’s also about cost. Klopp won’t be splurging £70mil on Zaha for someone to play 10 games or so.. he’d rather those minutes went to Origi or Brewster (or Wilson depending on pre-season).
 

Jimmyscase

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Why would Tierney or Zaha come here to be a backup? I get their other alternative is Arsenal but it’s Arsenal with a guaranteed starting spot and the chance to push for Europe and silverware via cups.

This is why it’s so dam hard for us to bring in the level of quality we need, they simply won’t come. Salah, Mane, Trent, Robertson are worldclass, so if you play that position you are coming in as 2nd choice and considering how robust they are you could be looking at games in the cup and/or a few in the league to rest only.

It’s also about cost. Klopp won’t be splurging £70mil on Zaha for someone to play 10 games or so.. he’d rather those minutes went to Origi or Brewster (or Wilson depending on pre-season).
What strikes me is that we haven't yet seen the best of Klopp yet, because he's spent the first 3¾ years turning the ship around. Wait till he can unleash his full potential as a player developer and mentor to future coaching staff. Pepijn's also nowhere near his ceiling as a coach and three further seasons working with Klopp will make a huge difference. So, injuries aside, I can't see Brewster or Wilson not being closer to contention for the matchday squad at times during the season. Origi will be pushing Klopp into tactical changes to get him game time if his trajectory continues.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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Why would Tierney or Zaha come here to be a backup? I get their other alternative is Arsenal but it’s Arsenal with a guaranteed starting spot and the chance to push for Europe and silverware via cups.

This is why it’s so dam hard for us to bring in the level of quality we need, they simply won’t come. Salah, Mane, Trent, Robertson are worldclass, so if you play that position you are coming in as 2nd choice and considering how robust they are you could be looking at games in the cup and/or a few in the league to rest only.

It’s also about cost. Klopp won’t be splurging £70mil on Zaha for someone to play 10 games or so.. he’d rather those minutes went to Origi or Brewster (or Wilson depending on pre-season).
Don't know how many times I'm going to have to point out our number of games likely to be around 60 plus. 2 positions that's 120 starts or more for 3 players (Trent, Robertson and new FB to play both sides) that's around 40 starts each, more than Trent made this season (38), more than Klopp let a new signing like Fabinho make too (30). In attack its even more so 3 positions its 180 starts or more to cover. This season Salah, Mane and Firmino started 137 games without much rest and without any major injuries so already a new signing could start as many as 43 games if Klopp let a new signing do that (unlikely) even if we still played the front 3 into the ground like we have the last 2 seasons (unhealthy).
 

Mascot88

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Don't know how many times I'm going to have to point out our number of games likely to be around 60 plus. 2 positions that's 120 starts or more for 3 players (Trent, Robertson and new FB to play both sides) that's around 40 starts each, more than Trent made this season (38), more than Klopp let a new signing like Fabinho make too (30). In attack its even more so 3 positions its 180 starts or more to cover. This season Salah, Mane and Firmino started 137 games without much rest and without any major injuries so already a new signing could start as many as 43 games if Klopp let a new signing do that (unlikely) even if we still played the front 3 into the ground like we have the last 2 seasons (unhealthy).
It doesn’t matter how many times you point it out, Robertson and Trent are going to play the vast majority of games. Any signing of a reasonable level is going to have pause for thought before coming here.

It isn’t just the number of games - it’s also the status in the squad. Liverpool can probably promise a new full back 15 games at Right Back and another 15 at Left Back. But if they are going to be the early rounds of the domestic cups and bankers against the bottom six, the player still might be tempted to swerve it.

Any more than that, any aspect where the full back positions are equally shared, and then you are essentially telling Trent and Robertson their reward for working hard and becoming Europe’s elite full backs is to play less games next year.

We might disagree about the details, about how many games we can offer a back up, but the point is that there is a hierarchy, and a player needs to be happy with the idea he is behind the established front two. I don’t anyone disagrees that it would be great to bring in such a player, but I think we have to acknowledge and understand that this is much harder than we often presume it is.

Personally, if the club accept that it needs a decent lad who can play both sides occasionally, I’d be happy with them telling Clyne to stay put for a year, get himself twenty games, and then leave on a lucrative Bosman.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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It doesn’t matter how many times you point it out, Robertson and Trent are going to play the vast majority of games. Any signing of a reasonable level is going to have pause for thought before coming here.

It isn’t just the number of games - it’s also the status in the squad. Liverpool can probably promise a new full back 15 games at Right Back and another 15 at Left Back. But if they are going to be the early rounds of the domestic cups and bankers against the bottom six, the player still might be tempted to swerve it.

Any more than that, any aspect where the full back positions are equally shared, and then you are essentially telling Trent and Robertson their reward for working hard and becoming Europe’s elite full backs is to play less games next year.

We might disagree about the details, about how many games we can offer a back up, but the point is that there is a hierarchy, and a player needs to be happy with the idea he is behind the established front two. I don’t anyone disagrees that it would be great to bring in such a player, but I think we have to acknowledge and understand that this is much harder than we often presume it is.

Personally, if the club accept that it needs a decent lad who can play both sides occasionally, I’d be happy with them telling Clyne to stay put for a year, get himself twenty games, and then leave on a lucrative Bosman.
So if this is as much as an issue as you are saying who has the hump in midfield out of Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Ox and Keita as only 3 can have the status of starter? But all seem ecstatic right now. In CB we don't seem to have any issues yet even though we all suspect Lovren will eventually but Matip and Gomez don't seem to be having an issue.
 

Iluvatar

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Don't know how many times I'm going to have to point out our number of games likely to be around 60 plus. 2 positions that's 120 starts or more for 3 players (Trent, Robertson and new FB to play both sides) that's around 40 starts each, more than Trent made this season (38), more than Klopp let a new signing like Fabinho make too (30). In attack its even more so 3 positions its 180 starts or more to cover. This season Salah, Mane and Firmino started 137 games without much rest and without any major injuries so already a new signing could start as many as 43 games if Klopp let a new signing do that (unlikely) even if we still played the front 3 into the ground like we have the last 2 seasons (unhealthy).
Point it out all you want, historically having tonnes of players is not Klopps approach. He has a small close knit first 18 or so with some experience and youth filling in gaps.

How many games does Messi play? Or Ronaldo? Or any great player? They play when fit 99 times out of 100 because they want to, they want minutes to break records, they strive to be the best and will do everything to achieve it.
 

Mascot88

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So if this is as much as an issue as you are saying who has the hump in midfield out of Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Ox and Keita as only 3 can have the status of starter? But all seem ecstatic right now. In CB we don't seem to have any issues yet even though we all suspect Lovren will eventually but Matip and Gomez don't seem to be having an issue.
My point is that this is harder than we generally think it is. Is that something you disagree with?

I’m keen that we add another full back, but given this is not an easy thing to I’m not going to lose it if we get towards August 9th and it isn’t done. We can probably cope.
 

redbj

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It doesn’t matter how many times you point it out, Robertson and Trent are going to play the vast majority of games. Any signing of a reasonable level is going to have pause for thought before coming here.

It isn’t just the number of games - it’s also the status in the squad. Liverpool can probably promise a new full back 15 games at Right Back and another 15 at Left Back. But if they are going to be the early rounds of the domestic cups and bankers against the bottom six, the player still might be tempted to swerve it.

Any more than that, any aspect where the full back positions are equally shared, and then you are essentially telling Trent and Robertson their reward for working hard and becoming Europe’s elite full backs is to play less games next year.

We might disagree about the details, about how many games we can offer a back up, but the point is that there is a hierarchy, and a player needs to be happy with the idea he is behind the established front two. I don’t anyone disagrees that it would be great to bring in such a player, but I think we have to acknowledge and understand that this is much harder than we often presume it is.

Personally, if the club accept that it needs a decent lad who can play both sides occasionally, I’d be happy with them telling Clyne to stay put for a year, get himself twenty games, and then leave on a lucrative Bosman.
I agree with ARD, in my mind your overcomplicating it.

Signing new players isn’t a new thing for European champions, for a player it goes with the territory.

Trent and Robbos positions would have been hunted all their football life.

They’d hardly fade at the prospect of another challenge. They might even welcome the ability to concentrate on focused fixtures.

As for incoming players, we should only be concentrating on footballers who have a bit of faith in their ability to challenge for spots.

I wouldn’t have thought thirty games in your first season would be a massive turn off. How many did robbo play ?
 

ILLOK

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Here's a bit of a left-field idea - would Ryan Kent make a good fullback?

Extremely quick, good running ability, two footed, decent work ethic and fairly strong. Hasn't quite got the game intelligence or final product to be a wide player for a team of our standard but he could be a threat from the full back areas.

It would obviously take a lot of coaching, but plenty of the natural attributes are there.
 

redfanman

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I wouldn’t have thought thirty games in your first season would be a massive turn off. How many did robbo play ?
Robbo had Moreno ahead of him and finished the second half of the season as starter. In between, he had a number of talks with Klopp about him not starting.
 

redbj

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Someone else mentioned it earlier too.

I have not seen enough of him to know, but footballers litteredwith wingers who are now great fullbacks.
 

Mascot88

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I agree with ARD, in my mind your overcomplicating it.

Signing new players isn’t a new thing for European champions, for a player it goes with the territory.

Trent and Robbos positions would have been hunted all their football life.

They’d hardly fade at the prospect of another challenge. They might even welcome the ability to concentrate on focused fixtures.

As for incoming players, we should only be concentrating on footballers who have a bit of faith in their ability to challenge for spots.

I wouldn’t have thought thirty games in your first season would be a massive turn off. How many did robbo play ?
Fair enough, I can accept the differences of opinion.
 

redbj

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Robbo had Moreno ahead of him and finished the second half of the season as starter. In between, he had a number of talks with Klopp about him not starting.

Not sure what the overriding arc is here, the situations would never be the same, how could they?

If we wanted a direct comparison as a template we have to follow then someone has to ask robbo to under perform for eighteen months and then we need to sign a fullback from a relegated team.

Jokes aside, obviously no two situations will ever be the same, I get improving on Moreno is fundamentally easier than improving on robbo himself, but that’s not what we are trying to achieve, I would have thought having three fullbacks over sixty games playing for a club that is reigning champions of Europe and went deep into a title race wouldn’t be an impossible sell.