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Who would you buy?

Anfield rd Dreamer

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We’ll see what happens, but I accept your point about stretching too far.

The thing that I think nobody really takes into account is that being one of the best teams in Europe, clocking 97 points, and winning Big Cup also brings a whole boat load of problems. Different ones to being crap, and nice ones to have, for sure. But there is an assumption that now we are where we are, everything is easy, and it isn’t.

One of the big issues for Klopp is that he has to consider that his squad aren’t just stats and numbers. They are young men with ego, and sensitivities, and all the same fallibilities and insecurities as everyone else. If Klopp had bought De Ligt, our current defence has every right ask, after being the best in the Country why the fuck the gaffer is spending £75m on improving it, and which one of them is getting binned off.

We know how much Klopp values team spirit, and how important it is to his methods. But it’s also very fragile.

So having had the team perform to such an incredible level last year, Klopp has to be very careful where and what he adds.
I think you massively over state this.

We have/will lose players from that defence and the players will be acutely aware of how stretched they were. How some were played when needing a rest, how Hoever got an unplanned debut (that thankfully didn't go bad and destroy his confidence and progress) and how Fabinho who was 6th or 7th choice at CB ended up having to be picked for starting a game.

They're also ambitious and will know there will be more games and more trophies they will want to win.

Also compare to midfield the year before. We were losing Can but that was about it, we had made a champions league final and finished top 4. As well as the planned deal for Keita we also added Fabinho and very publicly tried to add Fekir. It didn't harm the egos or team spirit in our midfield. If anything it helped create a bounce and players like Wijnaldum and Henderson kicked on over the course of the season and showed more passion and motivation. It helped drive the unit and create a more positive situation.

I really don't think footballers are as fragile as you make out. They don't see a new guy arrive and start sulking and feel their time is up they think "shit man how much better are we going to get? We're going to kick some ass this year" and always assume they personally are good enough to still play.

Besides nobody is asking for an increase in the numbers of players in defence they are only asking for an increase of quality and suitability.

Moreno and Clyne provided a season and a half of cover, both are probably leaving, one player who is a better match to our needs and better quality level replacing them is all we need.

If Lovren left somebody replacing him who is more reliable on the availability front would be essential and if that player was also top quality it would help us improve and kick on too (personally don't think this is going to happen this window now, think the new kid and Hoever will be prepared this season to, between them, replace Lovren next season and Matip a season or two after that).
 


Jah_Pool

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I'd love to see us sign Zaha who can play anywhere across the front three. Make CP an offer of $50 mill + Wilson for Zaha. I'd also want us to bring in one of Coutinho/Fernandes to improve the middle of the park.I'd also sign Tierney who can play either right or left back. The signings of Tierney and Zaha would throw a wrench in Arsenal's plans as well.
 

Iluvatar

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I'd love to see us sign Zaha who can play anywhere across the front three. Make CP an offer of $50 mill + Wilson for Zaha. I'd also want us to bring in one of Coutinho/Fernandes to improve the middle of the park.I'd also sign Tierney who can play either right or left back. The signings of Tierney and Zaha would throw a wrench in Arsenal's plans as well.
Why would Tierney or Zaha come here to be a backup? I get their other alternative is Arsenal but it’s Arsenal with a guaranteed starting spot and the chance to push for Europe and silverware via cups.

This is why it’s so dam hard for us to bring in the level of quality we need, they simply won’t come. Salah, Mane, Trent, Robertson are worldclass, so if you play that position you are coming in as 2nd choice and considering how robust they are you could be looking at games in the cup and/or a few in the league to rest only.

It’s also about cost. Klopp won’t be splurging £70mil on Zaha for someone to play 10 games or so.. he’d rather those minutes went to Origi or Brewster (or Wilson depending on pre-season).
 

Jimmyscase

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Why would Tierney or Zaha come here to be a backup? I get their other alternative is Arsenal but it’s Arsenal with a guaranteed starting spot and the chance to push for Europe and silverware via cups.

This is why it’s so dam hard for us to bring in the level of quality we need, they simply won’t come. Salah, Mane, Trent, Robertson are worldclass, so if you play that position you are coming in as 2nd choice and considering how robust they are you could be looking at games in the cup and/or a few in the league to rest only.

It’s also about cost. Klopp won’t be splurging £70mil on Zaha for someone to play 10 games or so.. he’d rather those minutes went to Origi or Brewster (or Wilson depending on pre-season).
What strikes me is that we haven't yet seen the best of Klopp yet, because he's spent the first 3¾ years turning the ship around. Wait till he can unleash his full potential as a player developer and mentor to future coaching staff. Pepijn's also nowhere near his ceiling as a coach and three further seasons working with Klopp will make a huge difference. So, injuries aside, I can't see Brewster or Wilson not being closer to contention for the matchday squad at times during the season. Origi will be pushing Klopp into tactical changes to get him game time if his trajectory continues.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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Why would Tierney or Zaha come here to be a backup? I get their other alternative is Arsenal but it’s Arsenal with a guaranteed starting spot and the chance to push for Europe and silverware via cups.

This is why it’s so dam hard for us to bring in the level of quality we need, they simply won’t come. Salah, Mane, Trent, Robertson are worldclass, so if you play that position you are coming in as 2nd choice and considering how robust they are you could be looking at games in the cup and/or a few in the league to rest only.

It’s also about cost. Klopp won’t be splurging £70mil on Zaha for someone to play 10 games or so.. he’d rather those minutes went to Origi or Brewster (or Wilson depending on pre-season).
Don't know how many times I'm going to have to point out our number of games likely to be around 60 plus. 2 positions that's 120 starts or more for 3 players (Trent, Robertson and new FB to play both sides) that's around 40 starts each, more than Trent made this season (38), more than Klopp let a new signing like Fabinho make too (30). In attack its even more so 3 positions its 180 starts or more to cover. This season Salah, Mane and Firmino started 137 games without much rest and without any major injuries so already a new signing could start as many as 43 games if Klopp let a new signing do that (unlikely) even if we still played the front 3 into the ground like we have the last 2 seasons (unhealthy).
 



Mascot88

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Don't know how many times I'm going to have to point out our number of games likely to be around 60 plus. 2 positions that's 120 starts or more for 3 players (Trent, Robertson and new FB to play both sides) that's around 40 starts each, more than Trent made this season (38), more than Klopp let a new signing like Fabinho make too (30). In attack its even more so 3 positions its 180 starts or more to cover. This season Salah, Mane and Firmino started 137 games without much rest and without any major injuries so already a new signing could start as many as 43 games if Klopp let a new signing do that (unlikely) even if we still played the front 3 into the ground like we have the last 2 seasons (unhealthy).
It doesn’t matter how many times you point it out, Robertson and Trent are going to play the vast majority of games. Any signing of a reasonable level is going to have pause for thought before coming here.

It isn’t just the number of games - it’s also the status in the squad. Liverpool can probably promise a new full back 15 games at Right Back and another 15 at Left Back. But if they are going to be the early rounds of the domestic cups and bankers against the bottom six, the player still might be tempted to swerve it.

Any more than that, any aspect where the full back positions are equally shared, and then you are essentially telling Trent and Robertson their reward for working hard and becoming Europe’s elite full backs is to play less games next year.

We might disagree about the details, about how many games we can offer a back up, but the point is that there is a hierarchy, and a player needs to be happy with the idea he is behind the established front two. I don’t anyone disagrees that it would be great to bring in such a player, but I think we have to acknowledge and understand that this is much harder than we often presume it is.

Personally, if the club accept that it needs a decent lad who can play both sides occasionally, I’d be happy with them telling Clyne to stay put for a year, get himself twenty games, and then leave on a lucrative Bosman.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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It doesn’t matter how many times you point it out, Robertson and Trent are going to play the vast majority of games. Any signing of a reasonable level is going to have pause for thought before coming here.

It isn’t just the number of games - it’s also the status in the squad. Liverpool can probably promise a new full back 15 games at Right Back and another 15 at Left Back. But if they are going to be the early rounds of the domestic cups and bankers against the bottom six, the player still might be tempted to swerve it.

Any more than that, any aspect where the full back positions are equally shared, and then you are essentially telling Trent and Robertson their reward for working hard and becoming Europe’s elite full backs is to play less games next year.

We might disagree about the details, about how many games we can offer a back up, but the point is that there is a hierarchy, and a player needs to be happy with the idea he is behind the established front two. I don’t anyone disagrees that it would be great to bring in such a player, but I think we have to acknowledge and understand that this is much harder than we often presume it is.

Personally, if the club accept that it needs a decent lad who can play both sides occasionally, I’d be happy with them telling Clyne to stay put for a year, get himself twenty games, and then leave on a lucrative Bosman.
So if this is as much as an issue as you are saying who has the hump in midfield out of Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Ox and Keita as only 3 can have the status of starter? But all seem ecstatic right now. In CB we don't seem to have any issues yet even though we all suspect Lovren will eventually but Matip and Gomez don't seem to be having an issue.
 

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Don't know how many times I'm going to have to point out our number of games likely to be around 60 plus. 2 positions that's 120 starts or more for 3 players (Trent, Robertson and new FB to play both sides) that's around 40 starts each, more than Trent made this season (38), more than Klopp let a new signing like Fabinho make too (30). In attack its even more so 3 positions its 180 starts or more to cover. This season Salah, Mane and Firmino started 137 games without much rest and without any major injuries so already a new signing could start as many as 43 games if Klopp let a new signing do that (unlikely) even if we still played the front 3 into the ground like we have the last 2 seasons (unhealthy).
Point it out all you want, historically having tonnes of players is not Klopps approach. He has a small close knit first 18 or so with some experience and youth filling in gaps.

How many games does Messi play? Or Ronaldo? Or any great player? They play when fit 99 times out of 100 because they want to, they want minutes to break records, they strive to be the best and will do everything to achieve it.
 

Mascot88

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So if this is as much as an issue as you are saying who has the hump in midfield out of Fabinho, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Ox and Keita as only 3 can have the status of starter? But all seem ecstatic right now. In CB we don't seem to have any issues yet even though we all suspect Lovren will eventually but Matip and Gomez don't seem to be having an issue.
My point is that this is harder than we generally think it is. Is that something you disagree with?

I’m keen that we add another full back, but given this is not an easy thing to I’m not going to lose it if we get towards August 9th and it isn’t done. We can probably cope.
 

redbj

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It doesn’t matter how many times you point it out, Robertson and Trent are going to play the vast majority of games. Any signing of a reasonable level is going to have pause for thought before coming here.

It isn’t just the number of games - it’s also the status in the squad. Liverpool can probably promise a new full back 15 games at Right Back and another 15 at Left Back. But if they are going to be the early rounds of the domestic cups and bankers against the bottom six, the player still might be tempted to swerve it.

Any more than that, any aspect where the full back positions are equally shared, and then you are essentially telling Trent and Robertson their reward for working hard and becoming Europe’s elite full backs is to play less games next year.

We might disagree about the details, about how many games we can offer a back up, but the point is that there is a hierarchy, and a player needs to be happy with the idea he is behind the established front two. I don’t anyone disagrees that it would be great to bring in such a player, but I think we have to acknowledge and understand that this is much harder than we often presume it is.

Personally, if the club accept that it needs a decent lad who can play both sides occasionally, I’d be happy with them telling Clyne to stay put for a year, get himself twenty games, and then leave on a lucrative Bosman.
I agree with ARD, in my mind your overcomplicating it.

Signing new players isn’t a new thing for European champions, for a player it goes with the territory.

Trent and Robbos positions would have been hunted all their football life.

They’d hardly fade at the prospect of another challenge. They might even welcome the ability to concentrate on focused fixtures.

As for incoming players, we should only be concentrating on footballers who have a bit of faith in their ability to challenge for spots.

I wouldn’t have thought thirty games in your first season would be a massive turn off. How many did robbo play ?
 



ILLOK

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Here's a bit of a left-field idea - would Ryan Kent make a good fullback?

Extremely quick, good running ability, two footed, decent work ethic and fairly strong. Hasn't quite got the game intelligence or final product to be a wide player for a team of our standard but he could be a threat from the full back areas.

It would obviously take a lot of coaching, but plenty of the natural attributes are there.
 

redfanman

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I wouldn’t have thought thirty games in your first season would be a massive turn off. How many did robbo play ?
Robbo had Moreno ahead of him and finished the second half of the season as starter. In between, he had a number of talks with Klopp about him not starting.
 

redbj

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Someone else mentioned it earlier too.

I have not seen enough of him to know, but footballers litteredwith wingers who are now great fullbacks.
 

Mascot88

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I agree with ARD, in my mind your overcomplicating it.

Signing new players isn’t a new thing for European champions, for a player it goes with the territory.

Trent and Robbos positions would have been hunted all their football life.

They’d hardly fade at the prospect of another challenge. They might even welcome the ability to concentrate on focused fixtures.

As for incoming players, we should only be concentrating on footballers who have a bit of faith in their ability to challenge for spots.

I wouldn’t have thought thirty games in your first season would be a massive turn off. How many did robbo play ?
Fair enough, I can accept the differences of opinion.
 



redbj

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Robbo had Moreno ahead of him and finished the second half of the season as starter. In between, he had a number of talks with Klopp about him not starting.

Not sure what the overriding arc is here, the situations would never be the same, how could they?

If we wanted a direct comparison as a template we have to follow then someone has to ask robbo to under perform for eighteen months and then we need to sign a fullback from a relegated team.

Jokes aside, obviously no two situations will ever be the same, I get improving on Moreno is fundamentally easier than improving on robbo himself, but that’s not what we are trying to achieve, I would have thought having three fullbacks over sixty games playing for a club that is reigning champions of Europe and went deep into a title race wouldn’t be an impossible sell.
 

Zoran

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Here's a bit of a left-field idea - would Ryan Kent make a good fullback?

Extremely quick, good running ability, two footed, decent work ethic and fairly strong. Hasn't quite got the game intelligence or final product to be a wide player for a team of our standard but he could be a threat from the full back areas.

It would obviously take a lot of coaching, but plenty of the natural attributes are there.
I like left field ideas sometimes, but in this case, nah, I don't see it. Overall not intelligent enough, also too much of a wild attacking instinct. He's a player who will look to dribble anywhere on the pitch, often too brave for his own good. Maybe just needs calm it down, learn to circulate the ball more before taking on one or multiple players, learn that in that case, he might get the ball back in better (goal-threatening) positions. Exciting to watch for fans, mind, he's really positive in his approach, fast, tries to play with his weaker foot and does have some skills. Had hopes for him when he was playing for our youth sides, looked brilliant for a while. Didn't develop enough in the meantime. I think he'd rather move on to a lower level (even more than Camacho) where he can continue playing regularly in attacking positions.
 

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Any player who turns us down,as they don't see themselves being a first team starter,doesn't deserve to be given the opportunity anyway,as far as i'm concerned.

It's a squad game,as others have posted in here and are better at it than me,i don't know the exact numbers of games/minutes each player would/could get over the season,but for any player with ambitions of winning things or making a name for themselves, would jump at the idea of playing for LFC right now.Our first 11 almost picks itself, but i'd like to see young hungry players come in and want to push themselves to not only get to the level of our first 11 but to get better and force them out,thats the players i want to see come in.

EDIT* Forgot to mention aswell,by having the attitude of not coming to LFC because they won't be first choice,also tells me they aren't mentally strong enough or back their own ability to be better than what we have to force there way in aswell.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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Point it out all you want, historically having tonnes of players is not Klopps approach. He has a small close knit first 18 or so with some experience and youth filling in gaps.

How many games does Messi play? Or Ronaldo? Or any great player? They play when fit 99 times out of 100 because they want to, they want minutes to break records, they strive to be the best and will do everything to achieve it.
Klopp likes a close knit group yeah so swapping a season and a half of cover players for one flexible player makes sense yeah?

There are leagues that require less rotation than ours. During his time with United how many games was Robaldo starting per season? Even though he's famous for being one of the most physically impressive players (practically a freak of nature) I still don't think he'd have been starting 50+ games per season during his time there. Certainly not 60+ like some seem to be hinting may happen with some of our players. I'll be surprised if Klopp and the fitness team want to start anyone except Alisson in more than 45 games. They may take the odd risk when they have to that leads to that happening but its increasing the risk of injuries to do so.
 

redfanman

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Not sure what the overriding arc is here, the situations would never be the same, how could they?

If we wanted a direct comparison as a template we have to follow then someone has to ask robbo to under perform for eighteen months and then we need to sign a fullback from a relegated team.

Jokes aside, obviously no two situations will ever be the same, I get improving on Moreno is fundamentally easier than improving on robbo himself, but that’s not what we are trying to achieve, I would have thought having three fullbacks over sixty games playing for a club that is reigning champions of Europe and went deep into a title race wouldn’t be an impossible sell.
No one is saying it is an impossible sell - just a difficult one.

You brought up Robbo as an example of where we brought in someone and gave him 30 games. I was pointing out that the circumstances were different and that even he wasn't happy with a lack of game time until he got the regular starting birth.
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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No one is saying it is an impossible sell - just a difficult one.

You brought up Robbo as an example of where we brought in someone and gave him 30 games. I was pointing out that the circumstances were different and that even he wasn't happy with a lack of game time until he got the regular starting birth.
Yet he still "only" started 49 last year and definitely looked leggy at times.
 

Craig_Johnston

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Everyone seems to be assuming that there won't be any injuries all season. If Robbo is missing for a month or two it could completely derail our chances. I like the Tierney option and don't think he'd only get meaningless league cup games. It's quite possible that he'd replace TAA in situations where we need more defensive solidity
 

melbournered

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Any player who turns us down,as they don't see themselves being a first team starter,doesn't deserve to be given the opportunity anyway,as far as i'm concerned.

It's a squad game,as others have posted in here and are better at it than me,i don't know the exact numbers of games/minutes each player would/could get over the season,but for any player with ambitions of winning things or making a name for themselves, would jump at the idea of playing for LFC right now.Our first 11 almost picks itself, but i'd like to see young hungry players come in and want to push themselves to not only get to the level of our first 11 but to get better and force them out,thats the players i want to see come in.

EDIT* Forgot to mention aswell,by having the attitude of not coming to LFC because they won't be first choice,also tells me they aren't mentally strong enough or back their own ability to be better than what we have to force there way in aswell.
What a good post. You're edit is very relevant as well. I would like to add that, we all know the premium that Jurgen places on players having good character.
An ambitious player with that attribute, who is willing to be a team player, will prosper in the culture that Jurgen has developed in his short time with us.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Not sure why that is relevant. The point under discussion is of the difficulty in bringing in suitable players not in the merits of having said players.
But the argument of how hard it is, I believe, only in the minds of fans. I don't believe any professional footballer would see it that way. A top team in every competition with only 2 players for 2 positions a player isn't going to think "but when will I play"! He'll think "not much competition for places, great manager, good quality teammates and great chance of winning medals....oh and competitive salary too!"!

Robertson got played into the ground, there was definitely talk of looking tired after some games towards the end of the season. That was with him starting 49, could play as many as 20 games more than that. Probably at least 10 more. That's assuming Robertson goes a second season with no injuries, if he gets even a short term injury he won't get as many starts next season as this. That figure really is the maximum.
 



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But the argument of how hard it is, I believe, only in the minds of fans. I don't believe any professional footballer would see it that way.
Then by extension, you must also think that Klopp and Edwards are not trying to fill that gap, despite the club saying there were trying to?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Then by extension, you must also think that Klopp and Edwards are not trying to fill that gap, despite the club saying there were trying to?
I think we are. I think what the club says and does are not always the same. Its fans that listen to the press releases then argue the wisdom of it and deny the worry the others feel.
 

Mascot88

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I think we are. I think what the club says and does are not always the same. Its fans that listen to the press releases then argue the wisdom of it and deny the worry the others feel.
Well, the club tried for Lloyd Kelly, so we clearly are in for a left back.

I do think some of the frustrations are bourne in part by a sense of ‘unconcious incompetence’ amongst fans. Not so much here, but certainly out on Twitter, where there is much panic and gnashing of teeth and why don’t we just fucking sign someone!

I do think the club are trying to be opportunistic. Not panic into signing players who aren’t ideal. We might have to wait and be patient. I think the club is looking and keeping track of what is happening, and if the right player becomes available we go for it. But the club is also confident that with Milner and Gomez, and possibly Clyne, we can cover.

Whatever, I trust the club know what they are doing.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Klopp likes a close knit group yeah so swapping a season and a half of cover players for one flexible player makes sense yeah?

There are leagues that require less rotation than ours. During his time with United how many games was Robaldo starting per season? Even though he's famous for being one of the most physically impressive players (practically a freak of nature) I still don't think he'd have been starting 50+ games per season during his time there. Certainly not 60+ like some seem to be hinting may happen with some of our players. I'll be surprised if Klopp and the fitness team want to start anyone except Alisson in more than 45 games. They may take the odd risk when they have to that leads to that happening but its increasing the risk of injuries to do so.
Just to build on this I've only just had the chance to check the figures. Whilst at United Ronaldo didn't start more than 50 games ever. Two seasons he started more than 45. At Juve he started less than 45 probably due to his age even though it is a slower league. Whilst at Real it was about 50% on seasons he started 50+ games or seasons he started less than 50. This is a guy who is famous for being about as physically gifted as it gets and has always been undisputed star everywhere he goes. Still never made it to the realms of 55+ starts even when in Spain where some of his games were walk in the park jobs. In fact the other player famous for always playing and carrying teams on his back Messi has only hit 50 or more starts 3 times in the last 10 seasons. So even in less physical leagues famous for needing less rotation it's still rare for even the very best to get more than 45 starts. As it stands half our ideal starting 11 may need to do it next season to see us through such a fixture heavy year.
 

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Don't buy the "it's difficult to find someone of quality who'd accept being viewed as a backup."

Firstly, we shouldn't be looking for backup, we should be looking at competition.

Secondly, it's a squad game. No one expects that Robertson can start and play every minute of every game. Same with Trent. Arguably, the reason Trent got into the team in the first place was because of injuries to others. Robertson wasn't bought as a guaranteed starter but took his chance when it came.

No one can convince me that there isn't a player anywhere in the world who is 90% as good as Robertson who wouldn't be ecstatic at the chance to come here and compete to be in this team.