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Who would you buy?



Anfield rd Dreamer

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That there's any such thing as luck at all is a logical fallacy. This is why I'm giving you my definition of the term. It's not luck at all, this is just a figure of speech.

The logical explanation would be that, the more you control a game, whether by possession, territory, chances, the less the likelihood that you will lose. The less control you have, the more it becomes a question of single moments, and the more you rely on opposition mistakes, or individual plays.

When I say lucky, I mean we won games we really didn't control and couldn't have complained, based on balance of play, if we'd lost or drawn.

I'll say this again, and youre free to disagree.. city were more comfortably better than their opponents than we were. We battled harder for our points total. That's my opinion. We've still got improving to do, they haven't, I understand that. I agree with anyone who says it. I've said it many times myself. It's why we're in this thread... discussing the question 'who would you sign'..

City were the better team last season, and by more than the point that separated us. They looked clear levels above the teams they played, even in some of the games they lost... we battled, and probably punched above our weight to even be there at the end.
So theres no luck but teams can lose games they don't deserve to lose? And you can control games therefore dictating who wins them and City were better at this than we were despite them losing more games?

In my opinion the Liverpool side that ended the season was better than the City side that ended the season. They are level, they're as good as they are. We are improving and several of our players had become much better players than they were at the start. Comparing City over the course of the whole season to Liverpool over the course of the whole season wouldn't show that.
 

Kopstar

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That there's any such thing as luck at all is a logical fallacy. This is why I'm giving you my definition of the term. It's not luck at all, this is just a figure of speech.

The logical explanation would be that, the more you control a game, whether by possession, territory, chances, the less the likelihood that you will lose. The less control you have, the more it becomes a question of single moments, and the more you rely on opposition mistakes, or individual plays.

When I say lucky, I mean we won games we really didn't control and couldn't have complained, based on balance of play, if we'd lost or drawn.

I'll say this again, and youre free to disagree.. city were more comfortably better than their opponents than we were. We battled harder for our points total. That's my opinion. We've still got improving to do, they haven't, I understand that. I agree with anyone who says it. I've said it many times myself. It's why we're in this thread... discussing the question 'who would you sign'..

City were the better team last season, and by more than the point that separated us. They looked clear levels above the teams they played, even in some of the games they lost... we battled, and probably punched above our weight to even be there at the end.
City's 98 points is a result of many factors outside of what happens on the pitch. Even just restricting it to what happens in the 90 minutes this assessment of 'control' is intangible.

We could have the opposition with the ball in our defensive third and be in considerable more control than City in possession on the halfway line. I rarely felt the game was getting away from us last year such was the control we exerted even in tight games.

I didn't get the same sense from City more often than us. If anything I felt they looked more vulnerable.

Just as an aside, I think our first XI is better than theirs.
 

Jah_Pool

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Why would Tierney or Zaha come here to be a backup? I get their other alternative is Arsenal but it’s Arsenal with a guaranteed starting spot and the chance to push for Europe and silverware via cups.

This is why it’s so dam hard for us to bring in the level of quality we need, they simply won’t come. Salah, Mane, Trent, Robertson are worldclass, so if you play that position you are coming in as 2nd choice and considering how robust they are you could be looking at games in the cup and/or a few in the league to rest only.

It’s also about cost. Klopp won’t be splurging £70mil on Zaha for someone to play 10 games or so.. he’d rather those minutes went to Origi or Brewster (or Wilson depending on pre-season).
We are playing 60+ games next season. A backup player would expect to get 30 games at least in both Cup and league competitions. Liverpool is a giant step up from Celtic and I don't expect Salah, Mane and Firmino to start early in the league campaign with the summer they have had. Zaha would start in the first five games for us, thus giving him the opportunity to stake a claim for a position.
 

Jah_Pool

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No one is saying it is an impossible sell - just a difficult one.

You brought up Robbo as an example of where we brought in someone and gave him 30 games. I was pointing out that the circumstances were different and that even he wasn't happy with a lack of game time until he got the regular starting birth.
I don't think its a difficult sell at all, Spurs have Rose & Davies at LB and Trippier and Aurier at RB and they aren't LFC . I think we are overthinking the difficulty of signing adequate backup players
 



GermanRed

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We are at a point now where we have to reject players and not the other way around. Players would love to sign for Liverpool, play under Klopp, play in front of the Kop.

We are not interested in Zaha. If we’d be he would sign for us without hesitation.
 

Iluvatar

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We are playing 60+ games next season. A backup player would expect to get 30 games at least in both Cup and league competitions. Liverpool is a giant step up from Celtic and I don't expect Salah, Mane and Firmino to start early in the league campaign with the summer they have had. Zaha would start in the first five games for us, thus giving him the opportunity to stake a claim for a position.
Why won’t Salah start? He is now on holiday and will join pre-season.

So we say to Zaha, come here mate play the first 5 games then go wait for an injury.

I think we give Origi the game time instead.
 

redfanman

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I don't think its a difficult sell at all, Spurs have Rose & Davies at LB and Trippier and Aurier at RB and they aren't LFC . I think we are overthinking the difficulty of signing adequate backup players
At least 3 of those 4 are reportedly available this summer. They may fit what Spurs were looking for when signed but they don't provide the output we look for from our full backs.
 

Jah_Pool

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I banged on about this player (and Dendoncker) previously. Still to early for that letter to Santa, but I'd still quite like Tielemans. Yes he's another box to box midfielder, but he seems to have an eye for goal; and the opportunity for him to learn from Milner, at such a young age, would be great. He's also not work-shy or afraid of defensive work. Rabiot without the baggage? Anyway, i think his permanent move to Leicester is due soon, as personal terms are agreed.
Tielemans has been signed by the Foxes for $40 nillion quid, expect that to double if he has the season that I expect him to have next season.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Why won’t Salah start? He is now on holiday and will join pre-season.

So we say to Zaha, come here mate play the first 5 games then go wait for an injury.

I think we give Origi the game time instead.
So you think Firmino, Salah and Mane are starting every game unless injured? Not even peak age Messi and Ronaldo (in less physically demanding league) did that many starts per year as that'll probably be. But you expect 3 players to do it?
 



Jah_Pool

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Why won’t Salah start? He is now on holiday and will join pre-season.

So we say to Zaha, come here mate play the first 5 games then go wait for an injury.

I think we give Origi the game time instead.
Salah and Firmino just finished playing with their respective country's this weekend and Mane is still playing with Senegal if I'm not mistaken. I would think that management would ensure that they get the required time away from the game so that they can recover. I wouldn't expect any of them back until mid-August and none would be in football shape. I would think that adequate backup talent would need to be signed to negate this.
 

Prolix

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[...]
Just as an aside, I think our first XI is better than theirs.
GK ALISSON > EDERSON

RB TAA >> WALKER
CB VAN DIJK >>> LAPORTE
CB MATIP >= STONES
LB ROBERTSON >= MENDY

DM FABINHO = FERNANDINHO

CM KEÏTA <<< DE BRUYNE
CM OX =< D. SILVA

RF SALAH >> STERLING
LF MANÉ >> SANÉ

CF FIRMINO = AGÜERO


imo!
(taking into consideration things like injury history and age, not only raw "talent")
 

Speckydodge

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Salah and Firmino just finished playing with their respective country's this weekend and Mane is still playing with Senegal if I'm not mistaken. I would think that management would ensure that they get the required time away from the game so that they can recover. I wouldn't expect any of them back until mid-August and none would be in football shape. I would think that adequate backup talent would need to be signed to negate this.
Salah, Bobby and Alisson are due back for our training camp in France, they will absolutely be picked for the opening games of the season.
 

SithBaare

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GK ALISSON > EDERSON

RB TAA >> WALKER
CB VAN DIJK >>> LAPORTE
CB MATIP >= STONES
LB ROBERTSON >= MENDY

DM FABINHO = FERNANDINHO

CM KEÏTA <<< DE BRUYNE
CM OX =< D. SILVA

RF SALAH >> STERLING
LF MANÉ >> SANÉ

CF FIRMINO = AGÜERO


imo!
(taking into consideration things like injury history and age, not only raw "talent")
I'd say that Aguero is better than Firmino. This is just the first xi though, the challenge with city is the bench strength that they have.
 



GermanRed

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GK ALISSON > EDERSON

RB TAA >> WALKER
CB VAN DIJK >>> LAPORTE
CB MATIP >= STONES
LB ROBERTSON >= MENDY

DM FABINHO = FERNANDINHO

CM KEÏTA <<< DE BRUYNE
CM OX =< D. SILVA

RF SALAH >> STERLING
LF MANÉ >> SANÉ

CF FIRMINO = AGÜERO


imo!
(taking into consideration things like injury history and age, not only raw "talent")
Ox and Keita better than KDB and D. Silva?

Where is Bernardo Silva? One of their best players last season.
 

Iluvatar

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So you think Firmino, Salah and Mane are starting every game unless injured? Not even peak age Messi and Ronaldo (in less physically demanding league) did that many starts per year as that'll probably be. But you expect 3 players to do it?
No who said that? However I expect that Brewster, Origi, Oxlade and potentially Wilson will all get minutes to rest our front 3. Btw I’ve said all summer I think we need a top quality option for our front three, I just think it’s getting increasingly hard for us to bring someone in of the right level who would be happy with the minimal minutes (our front three are some of the most robust forwards in the game).
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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No who said that? However I expect that Brewster, Origi, Oxlade and potentially Wilson will all get minutes to rest our front 3. Btw I’ve said all summer I think we need a top quality option for our front three, I just think it’s getting increasingly hard for us to bring someone in of the right level who would be happy with the minimal minutes (our front three are some of the most robust forwards in the game).
Robust not superhuman. Even in Spain (less physical league with more rest periods) and for teams where they are the flagship its incredibly rare for even Messi and Ronaldo to start more than 45 games. We may have 60+ next year. Klopp slowly bends in new players for instance Fabinho started 30 and he actually started more than most Klopp signings in his first year. Salah, Mane and Firmino have been played too much two seasons on the run and having international commitments each summer. They still only started 137 games between them even starting too much. Origi has scored some important goals but the rest of his play doesn't help the team performance so he's not an ideal cover option, more something different mostly off the bench. If Brewster is twice as good as Trent (one of the best right backs on the planet by the end of his 3rd senior season) he'll still likely only start 15 matches which is double what Trent did in his first senior season so I'd even be surprised by that. I think we are much more likely to see him coming off the bench regularly. Wilson is someone I want to get given a chance next season but we don't know he will. Ox is a CM who, as an emergency, can cover the wide positions a little but is a completely different player than Salah and Mane and also a prime contender to be starting in CM. As it stands its Shaqiri who would be most likely pressed into more game time I think.
 



nikz200

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So, recently it came out that Klopp views Ox, Brewster, Lallana and Gomez as "new players". This kind of thing tells me that with the purchase of Elliott and Van der Berg for the youth side, we can probably expect no business to be done.

I like Ox and Brewster , so they more or less should be given the shot to feature in the rotation. I also like Gomez and Lallana but, they have proven injury issues that have kept them out for long parts of the season. Its even worse for Lallana who is on the wrong side of age for this. It does feel like the club will justify not spending with the use of these players and Keita's return.

Man city on the other hand, despite being repeat champions, go out and buy Rodri after spending 60 mil on Mahrez last season.

While i understand that management is different and the team is better and all, we seem to be about to fall into the same trap as the last two title challenges. Im not saying buy the best most expensive people, but at least something that will help this squad this season where we fell short in the title race last season.
 

Iluvatar

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Robust not superhuman. Even in Spain (less physical league with more rest periods) and for teams where they are the flagship its incredibly rare for even Messi and Ronaldo to start more than 45 games. We may have 60+ next year. Klopp slowly bends in new players for instance Fabinho started 30 and he actually started more than most Klopp signings in his first year. Salah, Mane and Firmino have been played too much two seasons on the run and having international commitments each summer. They still only started 137 games between them even starting too much. Origi has scored some important goals but the rest of his play doesn't help the team performance so he's not an ideal cover option, more something different mostly off the bench. If Brewster is twice as good as Trent (one of the best right backs on the planet by the end of his 3rd senior season) he'll still likely only start 15 matches which is double what Trent did in his first senior season so I'd even be surprised by that. I think we are much more likely to see him coming off the bench regularly. Wilson is someone I want to get given a chance next season but we don't know he will. Ox is a CM who, as an emergency, can cover the wide positions a little but is a completely different player than Salah and Mane and also a prime contender to be starting in CM. As it stands its Shaqiri who would be most likely pressed into more game time I think.
I honestly wonder sometimes if you read the post you are responding to, as you are arguing against a point I've never made.

For a final time and at the point of repeating myself ad nauseum. I want us to strengthen the front line, exactly as you say, we have a lot of games and we need to be prepared for injuries and avoiding fatigue. Now where we seem to differ is. I think Klopp is giving the following pre-season (or the initial part) to stake their claim for that "back up" role, and if they don't he will go to market.

Brewster - Rated as one of the best attacking talents to come from the academy in recent years. We are talking Sterling levels of potential. If he hadn't of got injured last season he'd probably now already be a big part of the 1st team squad.

Wilson - For a manager who puts so so much emphasis on youth getting their chance, Wilson has done everything needed to prove he deserves his. He'll get it and now it's up to him to prove he has the physical stature and ability to make an impact in the big time league.

Origi - I'm ignoring the fact he achieved cult level status with some hugely important goals. He is a confidence player who prior to the potential career ending challenge by Funes Mori was developing into an excellent player. Klopp rated this guy (he wanted him at Dortmund) he'll get his chance to progress (which is his final chance here) this season.

Now that's 3 players, Brewster a #9 come wide player, Wilson a Right Forward come no.10 and Origi a Wide Left Forward come no.9. That on paper is sufficient depth, is it the required quality? Only Klopp can confirm that.
 

lfc.eddie

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I think we need to buy a backup for the entire front 3 and back 5, somewhat similar quality if we want to challenge for the title. Not like we could be able to mount any form of fight when we don't have similar or very capable backup sitting around at Melwood for those positions.
 

Hope in your heart

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Kloppo:

“If Ox can stay fit – new player for us,” the boss told Liverpoolfc.com.

“Rhian the same; he is a really big talent. We’re really looking forward to seeing him in training and all that stuff. It will be an important role for us, we planned an important role for him. So, new player.

“Like Joe Gomez is pretty much a new player. Adam Lallana, new player. After a lot of problems last year, if these boys can really stay fit then that’s completely different to last year for the team because there is real quality. That’s cool.”



That's for anyone who still expects a big move this summer. It simply won't happen, unless a player Klopp has targeted since long suddenly becomes available. Otherwise, he'll go with what he has, and that's 99% of probability, otherwise it would be done already.

Also interesting to see that he sees Brewster as an important new cog. He obviouls rates him massively, and that gets me excited actually, I can't wait to see this lad in action.

To have Ox back will also be a big boost. Not great that Shaq will be injured for the start of pre-season, but it will open a window of opportunity for Wilson and possibly Woodburn, so plenty of things to look forward to.
 

Sweeting

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I think people saying that Man City are strengthening despite winning the league again are missing the point.

Man City are strengthening because they, once again, failed to make a serious impression on the Champions League which is the only thing their senior management care about. They are buying to improve weaknesses in their first team that are exposed by two legged games. We don't have the same requirements at the moment.
 



Mascot88

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Kloppo:

“If Ox can stay fit – new player for us,” the boss told Liverpoolfc.com.

“Rhian the same; he is a really big talent. We’re really looking forward to seeing him in training and all that stuff. It will be an important role for us, we planned an important role for him. So, new player.

“Like Joe Gomez is pretty much a new player. Adam Lallana, new player. After a lot of problems last year, if these boys can really stay fit then that’s completely different to last year for the team because there is real quality. That’s cool.”



That's for anyone who still expects a big move this summer. It simply won't happen, unless a player Klopp has targeted since long suddenly becomes available. Otherwise, he'll go with what he has, and that's 99% of probability, otherwise it would be done already.

Also interesting to see that he sees Brewster as an important new cog. He obviouls yrates him massively, and that gets me excited actually, I can't wait to see this lad in action.

To have Ox back will also be a big boost. Not great that Shaq will be injured for the start of pre-season, but it will open a window of opportunity for Wilson and possibly Woodburn, so plenty of things to look forward to.
I think the availability thing is key. We’re talking about Asensio in the Unreliable Runours thread, and this is a case in point. Liverpool have had eyes on him for years, and Edwards and Klopp have had a crack at getting him in the past. If he were to become available later on when Madrid have done their business, that’s when we might move.

There are probably a few lads we like who might become available late on.
 

Iluvatar

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I think people saying that Man City are strengthening despite winning the league again are missing the point.

Man City are strengthening because they, once again, failed to make a serious impression on the Champions League which is the only thing their senior management care about. They are buying to improve weaknesses in their first team that are exposed by two legged games. We don't have the same requirements at the moment.
They are also replacing a large part of the core of their team.. Kompany (gone), Fernadinho (34), David Silva (33), Aguero (31). Probably the 4 most important players for them of the last 3-4 years.
 

Limiescouse

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Luck is luck regardless of what form it takes. To compartmentalise it in the way that you're doing is the logical fallacy.
It's also begging the question. It is an argument predicated on a position that is assumed to be true without any evidence that it is in fact true (that "control" is what most dictates who wins).

I have been pretty sanguine over the lack of activity on the basis of the size and quality of the group we have who might be expected to contribute more this year than they did last year:

Ox and Lallana - Injured
Fab, Naby and Shaq - new players so either never got to full speed or did not do so until well into the season.
Origi - A different players in the last 1/3 of the season than the first 2/3. He might be expected to carry this new status with him into the new season and be that player for the whole season.
Gomez - a very good half season that was cut short by injury
Brewster and Wilson - kids hoping to make the step up

If you were banking on any one of those to make up for a lack of new signings it would be a gamble. But when the entire group totals nearly an entire FA cup side, even if we only get improvements from 50% of them that is still a large contribution that we didn't have last year.

However, we've got Shaw missing the start of preseason because of injury sustained a month ago and we've just watched Naby have the shit kicked out of him. We're only 1 Lallana thigh injury away from that plan looking incredibly fanciful.
 
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Red over the water

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Yep, City’s spine has either retired, or doesn’t have long left. They could be vulnerable, relatively speaking, if they don’t get it right.

Personally I think Guardiola will get the last dregs out of it this season and then he will go. Whether or not that’s enough for them to win the title again remains o be seen, but they are still favourites.

Kompany has gone, Fernandinho will be phased out and Rodri in, David Silva is in his last year and Aguero is in his 30s and has a lot of miles on the clock. They need a bit of work to stay where they have been.