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Who would you buy?

Kopstar

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I know!

His name didn’t appear until the last paragraph which mentioned how he has had the sh*t kicked out of him.

Mind you, I’m not sure who our player Shaw is?
?

Shaw is obviously Shaq.

I have been pretty sanguine over the lack of activity on the basis of the size and quality of the group we have who might be expected to contribute more this year than they did last year:

Ox and Lallana - Injured
Fab, Naby and Shaq - new players so either never got to full speed or did not do so until well into the season.
Origi - A different players in the last 1/3 of the season than the first 2/3. He might be expected to carry this new status with him into the new season and be that player for the whole season.
Gomez - a very good half season that was cut short by injury
Brewster and Wilson - kids hoping to make the step up

If you were banking on any one of those to make up for a lack of new signings it would be a gamble. But when the entire group totals nearly an entire FA cup side, even if we only get improvements from 50% of them that is still a large contribution that we didn't have last year.

However, we've got Shaw missing the start of preseason because of injury sustained a month ago and we've just watched Naby have the shit kicked out of him. We're only 1 Lallana thigh injury away from that plan looking incredibly fanciful.
 


Red over the water

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Ah, my mistake!

I didn’t read Naby until the end.

Shaw/Shaq I missed that.

(Apologies Limiescouse too, I missed you listing Naby in the list of players we might reasonably expect more from).

Edit:
Had a bit of a mare here! I might have to go to work and do something productive...
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I honestly wonder sometimes if you read the post you are responding to, as you are arguing against a point I've never made.

For a final time and at the point of repeating myself ad nauseum. I want us to strengthen the front line, exactly as you say, we have a lot of games and we need to be prepared for injuries and avoiding fatigue. Now where we seem to differ is. I think Klopp is giving the following pre-season (or the initial part) to stake their claim for that "back up" role, and if they don't he will go to market.

Brewster - Rated as one of the best attacking talents to come from the academy in recent years. We are talking Sterling levels of potential. If he hadn't of got injured last season he'd probably now already be a big part of the 1st team squad.

Wilson - For a manager who puts so so much emphasis on youth getting their chance, Wilson has done everything needed to prove he deserves his. He'll get it and now it's up to him to prove he has the physical stature and ability to make an impact in the big time league.

Origi - I'm ignoring the fact he achieved cult level status with some hugely important goals. He is a confidence player who prior to the potential career ending challenge by Funes Mori was developing into an excellent player. Klopp rated this guy (he wanted him at Dortmund) he'll get his chance to progress (which is his final chance here) this season.

Now that's 3 players, Brewster a #9 come wide player, Wilson a Right Forward come no.10 and Origi a Wide Left Forward come no.9. That on paper is sufficient depth, is it the required quality? Only Klopp can confirm that.
On Brewster and Sterling, Raheem made his debut towards the end of one season but no starts. The following season he made 22 starts. I've said 15 starts for Brewster would be ambitious and we are a much stronger side than we where when Sterling broke through. Sterling from then plays that much now and it would weaken us significantly so Brewster would have to be significantly better than Sterling was (or Trent for that matter) to get to 15 starts. I think it's much more realistic to view him as hopefully being a fantastic super sub style who gets starts in few cup games during his first season. If he doesn't have any further repercussions from his major injury.

Wilson may not be given that chance. I want him to be. But all the write ups from the journalists with connections are that he'll have a chance to convince Klopp this summer but we apparently have a price we will accept for him and talks of potential loans for next season. Klopp certainly doesn't seem convinced or to have included him in his plans.

Origi actually only started 7 games last season, mostly/all in second half of season. You could literally treble that and still not get close to covering the amount of extra starts we will have next season.

Even if Salah, Firmino and Mane start as many games next season as this one (not ideal with risk of injury and keeping them fresh and in form) we could still have as many as 58 starting roles to fill. I don't believe we currently have enough and will struggle next season as it stands.
 



Mousecat

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City's 98 points is a result of many factors outside of what happens on the pitch. Even just restricting it to what happens in the 90 minutes this assessment of 'control' is intangible.

We could have the opposition with the ball in our defensive third and be in considerable more control than City in possession on the halfway line. I rarely felt the game was getting away from us last year such was the control we exerted even in tight games.

I didn't get the same sense from City more often than us. If anything I felt they looked more vulnerable.

Just as an aside, I think our first XI is better than theirs.
Ok I understand better now. It's about things outside of the pitch as well.

Nice.

Da ting is see... I'm talking about the things that happen inside the stadium. On match days. Inside the 90 minutes. I'm not trying to get the tea lady involved, or the physio.

You think we had the same control and all that, which is good, becauae what you show by saying this is that you just see the game differently to me. That's all.

Throwing barely plausible ideas, like "we could have as much control playing 90 minutes in our own half as they could playing 90 minutes in the opposition's" or whatever nonsense, does nothing to make me question my stance. Instead it looks like you want to keep your red tints on for this particular subject.
 

Mousecat

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It's also begging the question. It is an argument predicated on a position that is assumed to be true without any evidence that it is in fact true (that "control" is what most dictates who wins).
This is not a good example of begging the question. At all.

And historically there is plenty of evidence to suggest exactly that which you're saying is unsupported.

Control IS what most often dictates the outcome of a competition. When in the hell does anyone aim to have less control of something, as a means of giving them a better chance of success!?!?

Now, debating what actually constitutes control is another thing. But trying to assert that control itself being a precursor to success is somehow an unsupported idea, some wild notion, is the best example yet of an argument without much logical intelligence to it.
 



Mousecat

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Aaanyway.... long story short.. i couldn't even give a shit at this point if we didn't keep any more possession than we did last season, if we win the title at the end. Just can't see us matching what we did last season without more power in the midfield.
 

Claymenza

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Anyone else like the Ascencio link? Young and can play anywhere in the front three. I'm surprised real is ready to part ways.
 

Dave-D

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Anyone else like the Ascencio link? Young and can play anywhere in the front three. I'm surprised real is ready to part ways.
Only problem I have with this link is Real would try and get Mane in exchange and if they didn’t I doubt Liverpool won’t get Asencio
 

Red over the water

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Asensio was really highly rated a year or two ago and it looked like he would be a key player Real Madrid would build with. He seems to have faded a bit, but I’m not sure if that is because of the player, or the circumstances at a club that is going through a reset.

If we could get him back to what he was looking to become, and I see no reason why we couldn’t, he could be a sensational player. It’s way beyond my pay grade as a fan to know how likely that is, but if we are in for him, then clearly Jurgen and the nerds (surely there’s an up and coming band that needs that name in Liverpool?) are happy with the choice.
 

Speckydodge

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I think the availability thing is key. We’re talking about Asensio in the Unreliable Runours thread, and this is a case in point. Liverpool have had eyes on him for years, and Edwards and Klopp have had a crack at getting him in the past. If he were to become available later on when Madrid have done their business, that’s when we might move.

There are probably a few lads we like who might become available late on.

Biggest problem there is that Real and the rest of Europe's late on will be way way after our window closes.
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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Aaanyway.... long story short.. i couldn't even give a shit at this point if we didn't keep any more possession than we did last season, if we win the title at the end. Just can't see us matching what we did last season without more power in the midfield.
Which is always what your numerous, convoluted, posts boil down to. You prefer the City set up where tempo, match control and creativity is provided from the offensive members of its central midfield. To achieve that here there would be two options;

1st For more creative types (like City has in its CM) to be introduced in ours and them to concentrate on that side of the game (like they do there) then there would be consequences. First our full backs would no longer be able to push as high up the pitch with our CM no longer doing as much work. With our attacking midfield now having more presence and our full backs not adding the width Salah and Mane wouldn't be able to cut inside so much as it would be congested in there and they'd need to offer the width. Firmino also becomes moot, theres other players now playing in the areas he took up and completing the tasks he did so he needs to evolve into or be replaced with a more traditional number 9 figure. Far too much change to fix something that isn't broke.

2nd Find one or two attacking midfielder types who can do the kind of work Citys attacking centre mids do but are also able to play in the way a Klopp CM does. The problem with this is we have them. Keita, Ox, Henderson and Wijnaldum could all be that type of player if they had the Klopp work of a CM taken off them. It doesn't matter what player you add in to the squad in this way they will be more muted than they were wherever you bought them for because no player can 100% successfully meet the requirements of what Klopp needs his CMs to do whilst still being able to perform as a creative attacking mid presence. If we did this with, say, Eriksen, you'd soon be on here moaning that he doesn't attack and control play as much as he did at Spurs and probably use the word flop before suggesting another player that doesn't play with the additional work Klopp places on his CMs.
 

Kopstar

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Ok I understand better now. It's about things outside of the pitch as well.

Nice.

Da ting is see... I'm talking about the things that happen inside the stadium. On match days. Inside the 90 minutes. I'm not trying to get the tea lady involved, or the physio.

You think we had the same control and all that, which is good, becauae what you show by saying this is that you just see the game differently to me. That's all.

Throwing barely plausible ideas, like "we could have as much control playing 90 minutes in our own half as they could playing 90 minutes in the opposition's" or whatever nonsense, does nothing to make me question my stance. Instead it looks like you want to keep your red tints on for this particular subject.
I think that xG provides talking points rather than determinative data but when I looked at a comparison of xG between our games and City's over the whole season I was struck by the following:

For City, there were 12 games that the difference between the two teams was less than 1xG. They included all of the 6 games in which City dropped points last season.

For Liverpool, there were 15 (just three more) such close games. Similarly, those 15 included all of the 8 games in which we dropped points.

In the tight games (separated by less than 1xG) we accumulated an average of 1.87 points. City accumulated an average of 1.67 points.

Might that suggest that we were more clinical in and/or better at controlling those tight games?

[updated to correct errors]
 
Last edited:

GermanRed

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Salah gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because we have enough players to cover his position.

Firmino gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because Origi, Mané, Salah or Brewster can all step in.

My only concern is if Mané gets injured for more than three weeks. Of course we saw that Origi can step in on the left wing here and there but I dont think it is something that would work twice a week.
 



Mascot88

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Salah gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because we have enough players to cover his position.

Firmino gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because Origi, Mané, Salah or Brewster can all step in.

My only concern is if Mané gets injured for more than three weeks. Of course we saw that Origi can step in on the left wing here and there but I dont think it is something that would work twice a week.
Well, in reality nothing much changes. We would have had the lad this year anyway. This just means we don’t lose him for nothing at the end of the season, and I imagine there is a gentleman’s agreement that he’ll be allowed to leave if he doesn’t get the minutes he feels he needs.
 

Iluvatar

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Salah gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because we have enough players to cover his position.

Firmino gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because Origi, Mané, Salah or Brewster can all step in.

My only concern is if Mané gets injured for more than three weeks. Of course we saw that Origi can step in on the left wing here and there but I dont think it is something that would work twice a week.
I get that but it’s like saying what happens to Spurs if Son, Kane and Moura all get injured.. they’d struggle.
 

Red over the water

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If Mane gets injured for a stretch, based on current personnel, we will miss him. He's a world class player and you tend to miss those!

Origi can come in and offer a useful outlet on the left in a 4-3-3. Not as good as Mane, obviously, but Divvy's pace and power stretches it out, so we will still retain an attacking threat across the breadth of the pitch. If he builds on what he did last season he will weigh in with goals too. Again, not as good a Mane, but Origi, on the open market and now with a few years on his contract, is a 50M player.

I'm not sure what will become of Brewster. For all we know the lad will boss it and he could stake a big claim if Mane is out. Jurgen will be working hard to make sure there's no pressure on the lad, but I have to admit that I'm excited to see what he might become, as we've known about him for ages but injuries have held him back.

Another idea is that we will play 4-2-3-1 so there's a bit more flexibility with the 3 in this system, as they don't all have to be out and out attackers. At that point maybe Shaqiri, Keita or Ox will shine.

My preference is for another top striker to come in to offer more depth to the main three, but Origi and Brewster might just be all we need. They have probably been told they will get their chance, hence they signed deals with us to stay.
 

GermanRed

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My preference is for another top striker to come in to offer more depth to the main three, but Origi and Brewster might just be all we need. They have probably been told they will get their chance, hence they signed deals with us to stay.
My preference would be another speedy left winger for example David Neres.

What just came to my mind is that Ox could also step in on the left wing for Mané.
 

Zoran

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I get that but it’s like saying what happens to Spurs if Son, Kane and Moura all get injured.. they’d struggle.
Lucas isn't a regular starter for them if everyone is fit. He's their "Shaqiri" (and in my opinion better than Shaq, even if he was double the price, still worth it). We could both do with better depth (one more player) in some of these positions.
 



Red over the water

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My preference would be another speedy left winger for example David Neres.

What just came to my mind is that Ox could also step in on the left wing for Mané.
Definitely. When I said striker I mean it in the loosest sense, whether we go for a wide attacker or central. I think there's more of a chance to play if you are a wide attacker, and Neres is an exciting up-and-coming player who would fit the bill. I saw a nice little dinked goal he scored for Brazil the other day too.
 

Sweeting

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I think we can see that Hoever will get game time at RB this season and I don't think Liverpool are worried about using him as the primary back up to Trent.

Larouci and Lewis had a good pre-season appearance - we will see if they can keep it up when they go to the USA. It seems clear our plan is Robertson > Milner > ?. I think if Larouci and Lewis aren't deemed ready then Gomez will fill in there.

Brewster has been talked up so much by Klopp that we can be fairly sure he will be given a first team place.

I would be surprised if we sign anyone else.
 

GermanRed

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My 25men First team squad:

Alisson
Mignolet

TAA
KJH

VVD
Matip
Gomez
Lovren
SvdB

Robertson
Larouci or Lewis

Fabinho
Henderson
Milner
Wijnaldum
Ox
Keita
Lallana

Shaqiri

Mané
Salah
Elliott

Firmino
Origi
Brewster
 

Nikola

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I think we can see that Hoever will get game time at RB this season and I don't think Liverpool are worried about using him as the primary back up to Trent.

Larouci and Lewis had a good pre-season appearance - we will see if they can keep it up when they go to the USA. It seems clear our plan is Robertson > Milner > ?. I think if Larouci and Lewis aren't deemed ready then Gomez will fill in there.

Brewster has been talked up so much by Klopp that we can be fairly sure he will be given a first team place.

I would be surprised if we sign anyone else.
I won't rush to judge these kids on the account of a good game against Tranmere but I have been convinced for quite a while that Hoever and Brewster would be getting some decent minutes over the next two seasons - in Hoever's case at right back before becoming a centre back. Now, I'm not so sure he will become a centre back in the future, his physical and technical traits look so much better suited to that position than Gomez'.