• Hey Guest!
    Enjoy the This Is Anfield Forums but want to remove the adverts? Now you can do so by clicking here.
    Thanks for your support!

Who would you buy?

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
City's 98 points is a result of many factors outside of what happens on the pitch. Even just restricting it to what happens in the 90 minutes this assessment of 'control' is intangible.

We could have the opposition with the ball in our defensive third and be in considerable more control than City in possession on the halfway line. I rarely felt the game was getting away from us last year such was the control we exerted even in tight games.

I didn't get the same sense from City more often than us. If anything I felt they looked more vulnerable.

Just as an aside, I think our first XI is better than theirs.
Ok I understand better now. It's about things outside of the pitch as well.

Nice.

Da ting is see... I'm talking about the things that happen inside the stadium. On match days. Inside the 90 minutes. I'm not trying to get the tea lady involved, or the physio.

You think we had the same control and all that, which is good, becauae what you show by saying this is that you just see the game differently to me. That's all.

Throwing barely plausible ideas, like "we could have as much control playing 90 minutes in our own half as they could playing 90 minutes in the opposition's" or whatever nonsense, does nothing to make me question my stance. Instead it looks like you want to keep your red tints on for this particular subject.
 


Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
It's also begging the question. It is an argument predicated on a position that is assumed to be true without any evidence that it is in fact true (that "control" is what most dictates who wins).
This is not a good example of begging the question. At all.

And historically there is plenty of evidence to suggest exactly that which you're saying is unsupported.

Control IS what most often dictates the outcome of a competition. When in the hell does anyone aim to have less control of something, as a means of giving them a better chance of success!?!?

Now, debating what actually constitutes control is another thing. But trying to assert that control itself being a precursor to success is somehow an unsupported idea, some wild notion, is the best example yet of an argument without much logical intelligence to it.
 

Mousecat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
369
Aaanyway.... long story short.. i couldn't even give a shit at this point if we didn't keep any more possession than we did last season, if we win the title at the end. Just can't see us matching what we did last season without more power in the midfield.
 

Claymenza

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
1,844
Anyone else like the Ascencio link? Young and can play anywhere in the front three. I'm surprised real is ready to part ways.
 

Dave-D

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 10, 2014
Messages
3,344
Anyone else like the Ascencio link? Young and can play anywhere in the front three. I'm surprised real is ready to part ways.
Only problem I have with this link is Real would try and get Mane in exchange and if they didn’t I doubt Liverpool won’t get Asencio
 



Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,461
Asensio was really highly rated a year or two ago and it looked like he would be a key player Real Madrid would build with. He seems to have faded a bit, but I’m not sure if that is because of the player, or the circumstances at a club that is going through a reset.

If we could get him back to what he was looking to become, and I see no reason why we couldn’t, he could be a sensational player. It’s way beyond my pay grade as a fan to know how likely that is, but if we are in for him, then clearly Jurgen and the nerds (surely there’s an up and coming band that needs that name in Liverpool?) are happy with the choice.
 

Speckydodge

TIA Squad Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
2,618
I think the availability thing is key. We’re talking about Asensio in the Unreliable Runours thread, and this is a case in point. Liverpool have had eyes on him for years, and Edwards and Klopp have had a crack at getting him in the past. If he were to become available later on when Madrid have done their business, that’s when we might move.

There are probably a few lads we like who might become available late on.

Biggest problem there is that Real and the rest of Europe's late on will be way way after our window closes.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
11,523
Aaanyway.... long story short.. i couldn't even give a shit at this point if we didn't keep any more possession than we did last season, if we win the title at the end. Just can't see us matching what we did last season without more power in the midfield.
Which is always what your numerous, convoluted, posts boil down to. You prefer the City set up where tempo, match control and creativity is provided from the offensive members of its central midfield. To achieve that here there would be two options;

1st For more creative types (like City has in its CM) to be introduced in ours and them to concentrate on that side of the game (like they do there) then there would be consequences. First our full backs would no longer be able to push as high up the pitch with our CM no longer doing as much work. With our attacking midfield now having more presence and our full backs not adding the width Salah and Mane wouldn't be able to cut inside so much as it would be congested in there and they'd need to offer the width. Firmino also becomes moot, theres other players now playing in the areas he took up and completing the tasks he did so he needs to evolve into or be replaced with a more traditional number 9 figure. Far too much change to fix something that isn't broke.

2nd Find one or two attacking midfielder types who can do the kind of work Citys attacking centre mids do but are also able to play in the way a Klopp CM does. The problem with this is we have them. Keita, Ox, Henderson and Wijnaldum could all be that type of player if they had the Klopp work of a CM taken off them. It doesn't matter what player you add in to the squad in this way they will be more muted than they were wherever you bought them for because no player can 100% successfully meet the requirements of what Klopp needs his CMs to do whilst still being able to perform as a creative attacking mid presence. If we did this with, say, Eriksen, you'd soon be on here moaning that he doesn't attack and control play as much as he did at Spurs and probably use the word flop before suggesting another player that doesn't play with the additional work Klopp places on his CMs.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
13,923
Ok I understand better now. It's about things outside of the pitch as well.

Nice.

Da ting is see... I'm talking about the things that happen inside the stadium. On match days. Inside the 90 minutes. I'm not trying to get the tea lady involved, or the physio.

You think we had the same control and all that, which is good, becauae what you show by saying this is that you just see the game differently to me. That's all.

Throwing barely plausible ideas, like "we could have as much control playing 90 minutes in our own half as they could playing 90 minutes in the opposition's" or whatever nonsense, does nothing to make me question my stance. Instead it looks like you want to keep your red tints on for this particular subject.
I think that xG provides talking points rather than determinative data but when I looked at a comparison of xG between our games and City's over the whole season I was struck by the following:

For City, there were 12 games that the difference between the two teams was less than 1xG. They included all of the 6 games in which City dropped points last season.

For Liverpool, there were 15 (just three more) such close games. Similarly, those 15 included all of the 8 games in which we dropped points.

In the tight games (separated by less than 1xG) we accumulated an average of 1.87 points. City accumulated an average of 1.67 points.

Might that suggest that we were more clinical in and/or better at controlling those tight games?

[updated to correct errors]
 
Last edited:



GermanRed

from doubters to believers to sky-high achievers
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
3,493
Salah gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because we have enough players to cover his position.

Firmino gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because Origi, Mané, Salah or Brewster can all step in.

My only concern is if Mané gets injured for more than three weeks. Of course we saw that Origi can step in on the left wing here and there but I dont think it is something that would work twice a week.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
21,850
Salah gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because we have enough players to cover his position.

Firmino gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because Origi, Mané, Salah or Brewster can all step in.

My only concern is if Mané gets injured for more than three weeks. Of course we saw that Origi can step in on the left wing here and there but I dont think it is something that would work twice a week.
Well, in reality nothing much changes. We would have had the lad this year anyway. This just means we don’t lose him for nothing at the end of the season, and I imagine there is a gentleman’s agreement that he’ll be allowed to leave if he doesn’t get the minutes he feels he needs.
 

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
7,954
Salah gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because we have enough players to cover his position.

Firmino gets injured for 4 to 10 weeks - no problem because Origi, Mané, Salah or Brewster can all step in.

My only concern is if Mané gets injured for more than three weeks. Of course we saw that Origi can step in on the left wing here and there but I dont think it is something that would work twice a week.
I get that but it’s like saying what happens to Spurs if Son, Kane and Moura all get injured.. they’d struggle.
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,461
If Mane gets injured for a stretch, based on current personnel, we will miss him. He's a world class player and you tend to miss those!

Origi can come in and offer a useful outlet on the left in a 4-3-3. Not as good as Mane, obviously, but Divvy's pace and power stretches it out, so we will still retain an attacking threat across the breadth of the pitch. If he builds on what he did last season he will weigh in with goals too. Again, not as good a Mane, but Origi, on the open market and now with a few years on his contract, is a 50M player.

I'm not sure what will become of Brewster. For all we know the lad will boss it and he could stake a big claim if Mane is out. Jurgen will be working hard to make sure there's no pressure on the lad, but I have to admit that I'm excited to see what he might become, as we've known about him for ages but injuries have held him back.

Another idea is that we will play 4-2-3-1 so there's a bit more flexibility with the 3 in this system, as they don't all have to be out and out attackers. At that point maybe Shaqiri, Keita or Ox will shine.

My preference is for another top striker to come in to offer more depth to the main three, but Origi and Brewster might just be all we need. They have probably been told they will get their chance, hence they signed deals with us to stay.
 



GermanRed

from doubters to believers to sky-high achievers
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
3,493
My preference is for another top striker to come in to offer more depth to the main three, but Origi and Brewster might just be all we need. They have probably been told they will get their chance, hence they signed deals with us to stay.
My preference would be another speedy left winger for example David Neres.

What just came to my mind is that Ox could also step in on the left wing for Mané.
 

Zoran

Fighting like beavers.
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
18,279
I get that but it’s like saying what happens to Spurs if Son, Kane and Moura all get injured.. they’d struggle.
Lucas isn't a regular starter for them if everyone is fit. He's their "Shaqiri" (and in my opinion better than Shaq, even if he was double the price, still worth it). We could both do with better depth (one more player) in some of these positions.
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
2,461
My preference would be another speedy left winger for example David Neres.

What just came to my mind is that Ox could also step in on the left wing for Mané.
Definitely. When I said striker I mean it in the loosest sense, whether we go for a wide attacker or central. I think there's more of a chance to play if you are a wide attacker, and Neres is an exciting up-and-coming player who would fit the bill. I saw a nice little dinked goal he scored for Brazil the other day too.
 

Sweeting

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
8,824
I think we can see that Hoever will get game time at RB this season and I don't think Liverpool are worried about using him as the primary back up to Trent.

Larouci and Lewis had a good pre-season appearance - we will see if they can keep it up when they go to the USA. It seems clear our plan is Robertson > Milner > ?. I think if Larouci and Lewis aren't deemed ready then Gomez will fill in there.

Brewster has been talked up so much by Klopp that we can be fairly sure he will be given a first team place.

I would be surprised if we sign anyone else.
 



GermanRed

from doubters to believers to sky-high achievers
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
3,493
My 25men First team squad:

Alisson
Mignolet

TAA
KJH

VVD
Matip
Gomez
Lovren
SvdB

Robertson
Larouci or Lewis

Fabinho
Henderson
Milner
Wijnaldum
Ox
Keita
Lallana

Shaqiri

Mané
Salah
Elliott

Firmino
Origi
Brewster
 

Nikola

"Oh, history writer, don't close the pages yet!"
Admin
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
18,614
I think we can see that Hoever will get game time at RB this season and I don't think Liverpool are worried about using him as the primary back up to Trent.

Larouci and Lewis had a good pre-season appearance - we will see if they can keep it up when they go to the USA. It seems clear our plan is Robertson > Milner > ?. I think if Larouci and Lewis aren't deemed ready then Gomez will fill in there.

Brewster has been talked up so much by Klopp that we can be fairly sure he will be given a first team place.

I would be surprised if we sign anyone else.
I won't rush to judge these kids on the account of a good game against Tranmere but I have been convinced for quite a while that Hoever and Brewster would be getting some decent minutes over the next two seasons - in Hoever's case at right back before becoming a centre back. Now, I'm not so sure he will become a centre back in the future, his physical and technical traits look so much better suited to that position than Gomez'.
 

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
7,954
I won't rush to judge these kids on the account of a good game against Tranmere but I have been convinced for quite a while that Hoever and Brewster would be getting some decent minutes over the next two seasons - in Hoever's case at right back before becoming a centre back. Now, I'm not so sure he will become a centre back in the future, his physical and technical traits look so much better suited to that position than Gomez'.
I agree, he glides over the pitch. Seems to have huge technical ability as well. Gomez whilst silky in possession he is no Trent, Hoever is much more similar (and suits us far more than Clyne - irrespective of his goal, he always looks awkward in possession).
 

GermanRed

from doubters to believers to sky-high achievers
Joined
Jan 26, 2017
Messages
3,493
4-3-3
Alisson
TAA Matip VVD Robertson
Ox Fabinho Wijnaldum
Salah Firmino Mané

4-3-1-2
Mignolet
KJH Lovren Gomez Larouci
Keita Henderson Milner
Shaqiri
Brewster Origi

Didn't even use Clyne and Lallana. The second lineup should be strong enough to beat non PL sides in the domestic cups.
 
Last edited:



RedForever2014

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
3,976
Now that Klopp has confirmed that there won't be any major signings this summer, I'll comment again.

It's great to see such promising youngsters in action, and the need to invest is lessened by the youngsters coming through.

But investment in players ready to compete for best 11 places against all levels of opposition is still needed, and it's a mistake not to sign anyone.

A squad built to compete even if you get injuries to key players, needs to have like for like alternatives who are able to play many matches in succession, including against top sides, at a time when you have no choice. Players who are merely good enough to play when you choose and against who you choose is not a squad built to compete regardless of injuries.

Even if Brewster is the mercurial new boy, and is going to contribute more this season than the declining Sturridge did last season, and even if Origi is reborn and is a solid back up, it doesn't mean you don't buy a proven 4th quality forward of a similar level to the front three, so as to ensure your competitiveness.

Shaqiri is at his peak and has never shown in his career to date an ability to play regularly for a top side. Lallana is declining and rarely available. We could easily have upgraded one of those two.

If Bobby, Mo or Mane get injured or fatigued and are out a month or more, results will suffer if the only back ups are Origi, Brewster and Shaqiri, especially if key matches are involved.

This is not to say the club isn't in a good place, nor that we won't improve in certain areas, especially in midfield with Fabinho fully settled, Keita 12 months into his Anfield career and Oxlade back.

But there are clear issues - the lack of full back rotation, the injury prone nature of centre backs, the lack of a lock picker in attacking midfield, and - above all - the lack of a summer off for the front three and the lack of a proven similar level alternative to them.

It's really disappointing that the club waited a decade to become European top dogs and then chose not to leverage it by way of top signings.

And yes, to me it very much looks like the 2018 spending was a purely Coutinho fuelled bonanza and that FSG are now in the dividend collection phase of their tenure, via FSM cuts of commercial deals.

Maybe this summer's frugality is because the club won't be getting the full £142m for Coutinho, most likely the £105m without add-ons that would have come only if he stays at Barce.

You've only got to read the LFC News, aka Liverpool Echo, to see LFC's spin machine utilising its cosy relationship with the likes of Doyle to justify the lack of transfer activity, with improved player contracts and returning players cited as new signings.

Listen, we will compete, we will win some trophies, but if we're talking about winning everything possible from the position we were in on the morning of June 2nd, that for me is undoubtedly compromised by the club's failure to add at least one proven quality best 11 level player this summer.

That's all I'm going to say for now, even if people reply.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
15,743
I'm quite happy with the squad, and happy the young players we already have at the club will be given a chance to play some football.

There's little point fighting off City, United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Barcelona, Ajax, Madrid, Munich etc for the likes of Brewster, Elliot, Hoever, Van Den Berg if we're too scared to actually play them.
 

redfanman

TIA Regular
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
13,770
And yes, to me it very much looks like the 2018 spending was a purely Coutinho fuelled bonanza and that FSG are now in the dividend collection phase of their tenure, via FSM cuts of commercial deals.

Maybe this summer's frugality is because the club won't be getting the full £142m for Coutinho, most likely the £105m without add-ons that would have come only if he stays at Barce.
While we may not have the big pile of cash we had when selling Coutinho to re-invest, there is easily enough money there for at least one good signing to match our club record, or more at lower prices without FSG dipping into their pockets which suggests that it isnt a money issue but a deliberate decision by Klopp - unless you think Edwards has lost his magic touch and cant find anyone good enough to strengthen our squad.

@Kopstar pointed out last season we have already locked in a big chunk (I think £20m at least) of the add ons from the Coutiinho deal because of appearances and their league win. I think there might have been a sell on clause too if the other add ons werent met to protect us from an early sale.

We've already sold Ings (£18.5m?) and Camacho (£7m). Clyne (10-15m) is expected to follow. Maybe the likes of Wilson (25m) and Kent (£10m?) too.

Thats on top of the usual £30m if that hasnt been used up by the bonuses and new contracts.

Given how eager FSG are to get Klopp to sign a new contract, do you really believe they are stopping him from spending the above money?
 
Last edited: