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Who would you buy?

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
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So you think Firmino, Salah and Mane are starting every game unless injured? Not even peak age Messi and Ronaldo (in less physically demanding league) did that many starts per year as that'll probably be. But you expect 3 players to do it?
No who said that? However I expect that Brewster, Origi, Oxlade and potentially Wilson will all get minutes to rest our front 3. Btw I’ve said all summer I think we need a top quality option for our front three, I just think it’s getting increasingly hard for us to bring someone in of the right level who would be happy with the minimal minutes (our front three are some of the most robust forwards in the game).
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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No who said that? However I expect that Brewster, Origi, Oxlade and potentially Wilson will all get minutes to rest our front 3. Btw I’ve said all summer I think we need a top quality option for our front three, I just think it’s getting increasingly hard for us to bring someone in of the right level who would be happy with the minimal minutes (our front three are some of the most robust forwards in the game).
Robust not superhuman. Even in Spain (less physical league with more rest periods) and for teams where they are the flagship its incredibly rare for even Messi and Ronaldo to start more than 45 games. We may have 60+ next year. Klopp slowly bends in new players for instance Fabinho started 30 and he actually started more than most Klopp signings in his first year. Salah, Mane and Firmino have been played too much two seasons on the run and having international commitments each summer. They still only started 137 games between them even starting too much. Origi has scored some important goals but the rest of his play doesn't help the team performance so he's not an ideal cover option, more something different mostly off the bench. If Brewster is twice as good as Trent (one of the best right backs on the planet by the end of his 3rd senior season) he'll still likely only start 15 matches which is double what Trent did in his first senior season so I'd even be surprised by that. I think we are much more likely to see him coming off the bench regularly. Wilson is someone I want to get given a chance next season but we don't know he will. Ox is a CM who, as an emergency, can cover the wide positions a little but is a completely different player than Salah and Mane and also a prime contender to be starting in CM. As it stands its Shaqiri who would be most likely pressed into more game time I think.
 

nikz200

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So, recently it came out that Klopp views Ox, Brewster, Lallana and Gomez as "new players". This kind of thing tells me that with the purchase of Elliott and Van der Berg for the youth side, we can probably expect no business to be done.

I like Ox and Brewster , so they more or less should be given the shot to feature in the rotation. I also like Gomez and Lallana but, they have proven injury issues that have kept them out for long parts of the season. Its even worse for Lallana who is on the wrong side of age for this. It does feel like the club will justify not spending with the use of these players and Keita's return.

Man city on the other hand, despite being repeat champions, go out and buy Rodri after spending 60 mil on Mahrez last season.

While i understand that management is different and the team is better and all, we seem to be about to fall into the same trap as the last two title challenges. Im not saying buy the best most expensive people, but at least something that will help this squad this season where we fell short in the title race last season.
 

Iluvatar

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Robust not superhuman. Even in Spain (less physical league with more rest periods) and for teams where they are the flagship its incredibly rare for even Messi and Ronaldo to start more than 45 games. We may have 60+ next year. Klopp slowly bends in new players for instance Fabinho started 30 and he actually started more than most Klopp signings in his first year. Salah, Mane and Firmino have been played too much two seasons on the run and having international commitments each summer. They still only started 137 games between them even starting too much. Origi has scored some important goals but the rest of his play doesn't help the team performance so he's not an ideal cover option, more something different mostly off the bench. If Brewster is twice as good as Trent (one of the best right backs on the planet by the end of his 3rd senior season) he'll still likely only start 15 matches which is double what Trent did in his first senior season so I'd even be surprised by that. I think we are much more likely to see him coming off the bench regularly. Wilson is someone I want to get given a chance next season but we don't know he will. Ox is a CM who, as an emergency, can cover the wide positions a little but is a completely different player than Salah and Mane and also a prime contender to be starting in CM. As it stands its Shaqiri who would be most likely pressed into more game time I think.
I honestly wonder sometimes if you read the post you are responding to, as you are arguing against a point I've never made.

For a final time and at the point of repeating myself ad nauseum. I want us to strengthen the front line, exactly as you say, we have a lot of games and we need to be prepared for injuries and avoiding fatigue. Now where we seem to differ is. I think Klopp is giving the following pre-season (or the initial part) to stake their claim for that "back up" role, and if they don't he will go to market.

Brewster - Rated as one of the best attacking talents to come from the academy in recent years. We are talking Sterling levels of potential. If he hadn't of got injured last season he'd probably now already be a big part of the 1st team squad.

Wilson - For a manager who puts so so much emphasis on youth getting their chance, Wilson has done everything needed to prove he deserves his. He'll get it and now it's up to him to prove he has the physical stature and ability to make an impact in the big time league.

Origi - I'm ignoring the fact he achieved cult level status with some hugely important goals. He is a confidence player who prior to the potential career ending challenge by Funes Mori was developing into an excellent player. Klopp rated this guy (he wanted him at Dortmund) he'll get his chance to progress (which is his final chance here) this season.

Now that's 3 players, Brewster a #9 come wide player, Wilson a Right Forward come no.10 and Origi a Wide Left Forward come no.9. That on paper is sufficient depth, is it the required quality? Only Klopp can confirm that.
 

lfc.eddie

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I think we need to buy a backup for the entire front 3 and back 5, somewhat similar quality if we want to challenge for the title. Not like we could be able to mount any form of fight when we don't have similar or very capable backup sitting around at Melwood for those positions.
 

Hope in your heart

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Kloppo:

“If Ox can stay fit – new player for us,” the boss told Liverpoolfc.com.

“Rhian the same; he is a really big talent. We’re really looking forward to seeing him in training and all that stuff. It will be an important role for us, we planned an important role for him. So, new player.

“Like Joe Gomez is pretty much a new player. Adam Lallana, new player. After a lot of problems last year, if these boys can really stay fit then that’s completely different to last year for the team because there is real quality. That’s cool.”



That's for anyone who still expects a big move this summer. It simply won't happen, unless a player Klopp has targeted since long suddenly becomes available. Otherwise, he'll go with what he has, and that's 99% of probability, otherwise it would be done already.

Also interesting to see that he sees Brewster as an important new cog. He obviouls rates him massively, and that gets me excited actually, I can't wait to see this lad in action.

To have Ox back will also be a big boost. Not great that Shaq will be injured for the start of pre-season, but it will open a window of opportunity for Wilson and possibly Woodburn, so plenty of things to look forward to.
 

Sweeting

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I think people saying that Man City are strengthening despite winning the league again are missing the point.

Man City are strengthening because they, once again, failed to make a serious impression on the Champions League which is the only thing their senior management care about. They are buying to improve weaknesses in their first team that are exposed by two legged games. We don't have the same requirements at the moment.
 

Mascot88

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Kloppo:

“If Ox can stay fit – new player for us,” the boss told Liverpoolfc.com.

“Rhian the same; he is a really big talent. We’re really looking forward to seeing him in training and all that stuff. It will be an important role for us, we planned an important role for him. So, new player.

“Like Joe Gomez is pretty much a new player. Adam Lallana, new player. After a lot of problems last year, if these boys can really stay fit then that’s completely different to last year for the team because there is real quality. That’s cool.”



That's for anyone who still expects a big move this summer. It simply won't happen, unless a player Klopp has targeted since long suddenly becomes available. Otherwise, he'll go with what he has, and that's 99% of probability, otherwise it would be done already.

Also interesting to see that he sees Brewster as an important new cog. He obviouls yrates him massively, and that gets me excited actually, I can't wait to see this lad in action.

To have Ox back will also be a big boost. Not great that Shaq will be injured for the start of pre-season, but it will open a window of opportunity for Wilson and possibly Woodburn, so plenty of things to look forward to.
I think the availability thing is key. We’re talking about Asensio in the Unreliable Runours thread, and this is a case in point. Liverpool have had eyes on him for years, and Edwards and Klopp have had a crack at getting him in the past. If he were to become available later on when Madrid have done their business, that’s when we might move.

There are probably a few lads we like who might become available late on.
 

Iluvatar

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I think people saying that Man City are strengthening despite winning the league again are missing the point.

Man City are strengthening because they, once again, failed to make a serious impression on the Champions League which is the only thing their senior management care about. They are buying to improve weaknesses in their first team that are exposed by two legged games. We don't have the same requirements at the moment.
They are also replacing a large part of the core of their team.. Kompany (gone), Fernadinho (34), David Silva (33), Aguero (31). Probably the 4 most important players for them of the last 3-4 years.
 

Limiescouse

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Luck is luck regardless of what form it takes. To compartmentalise it in the way that you're doing is the logical fallacy.
It's also begging the question. It is an argument predicated on a position that is assumed to be true without any evidence that it is in fact true (that "control" is what most dictates who wins).

I have been pretty sanguine over the lack of activity on the basis of the size and quality of the group we have who might be expected to contribute more this year than they did last year:

Ox and Lallana - Injured
Fab, Naby and Shaq - new players so either never got to full speed or did not do so until well into the season.
Origi - A different players in the last 1/3 of the season than the first 2/3. He might be expected to carry this new status with him into the new season and be that player for the whole season.
Gomez - a very good half season that was cut short by injury
Brewster and Wilson - kids hoping to make the step up

If you were banking on any one of those to make up for a lack of new signings it would be a gamble. But when the entire group totals nearly an entire FA cup side, even if we only get improvements from 50% of them that is still a large contribution that we didn't have last year.

However, we've got Shaw missing the start of preseason because of injury sustained a month ago and we've just watched Naby have the shit kicked out of him. We're only 1 Lallana thigh injury away from that plan looking incredibly fanciful.
 
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Red over the water

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Yep, City’s spine has either retired, or doesn’t have long left. They could be vulnerable, relatively speaking, if they don’t get it right.

Personally I think Guardiola will get the last dregs out of it this season and then he will go. Whether or not that’s enough for them to win the title again remains o be seen, but they are still favourites.

Kompany has gone, Fernandinho will be phased out and Rodri in, David Silva is in his last year and Aguero is in his 30s and has a lot of miles on the clock. They need a bit of work to stay where they have been.
 

Red over the water

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Naby is Keita's first name.
I know!

His name didn’t appear until the last paragraph which mentioned how he has had the sh*t kicked out of him. I thought the list of players under consideration for reasonably expecting more from them was higher up in the post?

Mind you, I’m not sure who our player Shaw is?
 

Kopstar

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I know!

His name didn’t appear until the last paragraph which mentioned how he has had the sh*t kicked out of him.

Mind you, I’m not sure who our player Shaw is?
?

Shaw is obviously Shaq.

I have been pretty sanguine over the lack of activity on the basis of the size and quality of the group we have who might be expected to contribute more this year than they did last year:

Ox and Lallana - Injured
Fab, Naby and Shaq - new players so either never got to full speed or did not do so until well into the season.
Origi - A different players in the last 1/3 of the season than the first 2/3. He might be expected to carry this new status with him into the new season and be that player for the whole season.
Gomez - a very good half season that was cut short by injury
Brewster and Wilson - kids hoping to make the step up

If you were banking on any one of those to make up for a lack of new signings it would be a gamble. But when the entire group totals nearly an entire FA cup side, even if we only get improvements from 50% of them that is still a large contribution that we didn't have last year.

However, we've got Shaw missing the start of preseason because of injury sustained a month ago and we've just watched Naby have the shit kicked out of him. We're only 1 Lallana thigh injury away from that plan looking incredibly fanciful.
 

Red over the water

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Ah, my mistake!

I didn’t read Naby until the end.

Shaw/Shaq I missed that.

(Apologies Limiescouse too, I missed you listing Naby in the list of players we might reasonably expect more from).

Edit:
Had a bit of a mare here! I might have to go to work and do something productive...
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I honestly wonder sometimes if you read the post you are responding to, as you are arguing against a point I've never made.

For a final time and at the point of repeating myself ad nauseum. I want us to strengthen the front line, exactly as you say, we have a lot of games and we need to be prepared for injuries and avoiding fatigue. Now where we seem to differ is. I think Klopp is giving the following pre-season (or the initial part) to stake their claim for that "back up" role, and if they don't he will go to market.

Brewster - Rated as one of the best attacking talents to come from the academy in recent years. We are talking Sterling levels of potential. If he hadn't of got injured last season he'd probably now already be a big part of the 1st team squad.

Wilson - For a manager who puts so so much emphasis on youth getting their chance, Wilson has done everything needed to prove he deserves his. He'll get it and now it's up to him to prove he has the physical stature and ability to make an impact in the big time league.

Origi - I'm ignoring the fact he achieved cult level status with some hugely important goals. He is a confidence player who prior to the potential career ending challenge by Funes Mori was developing into an excellent player. Klopp rated this guy (he wanted him at Dortmund) he'll get his chance to progress (which is his final chance here) this season.

Now that's 3 players, Brewster a #9 come wide player, Wilson a Right Forward come no.10 and Origi a Wide Left Forward come no.9. That on paper is sufficient depth, is it the required quality? Only Klopp can confirm that.
On Brewster and Sterling, Raheem made his debut towards the end of one season but no starts. The following season he made 22 starts. I've said 15 starts for Brewster would be ambitious and we are a much stronger side than we where when Sterling broke through. Sterling from then plays that much now and it would weaken us significantly so Brewster would have to be significantly better than Sterling was (or Trent for that matter) to get to 15 starts. I think it's much more realistic to view him as hopefully being a fantastic super sub style who gets starts in few cup games during his first season. If he doesn't have any further repercussions from his major injury.

Wilson may not be given that chance. I want him to be. But all the write ups from the journalists with connections are that he'll have a chance to convince Klopp this summer but we apparently have a price we will accept for him and talks of potential loans for next season. Klopp certainly doesn't seem convinced or to have included him in his plans.

Origi actually only started 7 games last season, mostly/all in second half of season. You could literally treble that and still not get close to covering the amount of extra starts we will have next season.

Even if Salah, Firmino and Mane start as many games next season as this one (not ideal with risk of injury and keeping them fresh and in form) we could still have as many as 58 starting roles to fill. I don't believe we currently have enough and will struggle next season as it stands.
 

Mousecat

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City's 98 points is a result of many factors outside of what happens on the pitch. Even just restricting it to what happens in the 90 minutes this assessment of 'control' is intangible.

We could have the opposition with the ball in our defensive third and be in considerable more control than City in possession on the halfway line. I rarely felt the game was getting away from us last year such was the control we exerted even in tight games.

I didn't get the same sense from City more often than us. If anything I felt they looked more vulnerable.

Just as an aside, I think our first XI is better than theirs.
Ok I understand better now. It's about things outside of the pitch as well.

Nice.

Da ting is see... I'm talking about the things that happen inside the stadium. On match days. Inside the 90 minutes. I'm not trying to get the tea lady involved, or the physio.

You think we had the same control and all that, which is good, becauae what you show by saying this is that you just see the game differently to me. That's all.

Throwing barely plausible ideas, like "we could have as much control playing 90 minutes in our own half as they could playing 90 minutes in the opposition's" or whatever nonsense, does nothing to make me question my stance. Instead it looks like you want to keep your red tints on for this particular subject.
 



Mousecat

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It's also begging the question. It is an argument predicated on a position that is assumed to be true without any evidence that it is in fact true (that "control" is what most dictates who wins).
This is not a good example of begging the question. At all.

And historically there is plenty of evidence to suggest exactly that which you're saying is unsupported.

Control IS what most often dictates the outcome of a competition. When in the hell does anyone aim to have less control of something, as a means of giving them a better chance of success!?!?

Now, debating what actually constitutes control is another thing. But trying to assert that control itself being a precursor to success is somehow an unsupported idea, some wild notion, is the best example yet of an argument without much logical intelligence to it.
 

Mousecat

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Aaanyway.... long story short.. i couldn't even give a shit at this point if we didn't keep any more possession than we did last season, if we win the title at the end. Just can't see us matching what we did last season without more power in the midfield.
 

Claymenza

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Anyone else like the Ascencio link? Young and can play anywhere in the front three. I'm surprised real is ready to part ways.
 

Dave-D

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Anyone else like the Ascencio link? Young and can play anywhere in the front three. I'm surprised real is ready to part ways.
Only problem I have with this link is Real would try and get Mane in exchange and if they didn’t I doubt Liverpool won’t get Asencio
 

Red over the water

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Asensio was really highly rated a year or two ago and it looked like he would be a key player Real Madrid would build with. He seems to have faded a bit, but I’m not sure if that is because of the player, or the circumstances at a club that is going through a reset.

If we could get him back to what he was looking to become, and I see no reason why we couldn’t, he could be a sensational player. It’s way beyond my pay grade as a fan to know how likely that is, but if we are in for him, then clearly Jurgen and the nerds (surely there’s an up and coming band that needs that name in Liverpool?) are happy with the choice.