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Who would you buy?

ubermick

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While current squad value/sellability might be testimony to the work Klopp/Edwards have done, the reality is that its neither here nor there for us fans. The one area the dissenters (whom I can't believe we still have) actually do have fertile ground is that as a fan I'm personally only arsed about what happens on the pitch, and trophies in the cabinet - and while the Champions League was great, I want more - notably the league.

Like I've pointed out though, we're blissfully past the point of buying whoever's available in an attempt to stop the bleeding, and are instead performing delicate surgery. And that's delicate work - and am delighted the lads in charge are carefully carefully using a scalpel rather than a hatchet.
 


RedForever2014

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If may summarise what I think is the general consensus here?

We have a fantastic squad and good depth, as evidenced by putting a 97 point season and winning the European Cup.

If there is business to be done, we could do with some cover for Robertson, and another versatile front three option.

However, at the level we are at, finding the right players is difficult. A player who isn’t much of a drop off from Robertson is a tough one. Finding one who accepts he is second choice is nigh on impossible.

So we have a choice. Find someone who isn’t ideal, is happy to sit on the bench, or is a big step down from Robbo, or stick with what we have. I think that most of us, given that choice, would stick. There are players in the squad who can do a job for us, and while it would be preferable to get a specialist, we are long past the days of just bringing in anyone to fill a paper need.

At this point we probably just need to wait and see. Klopp has indicated that the club are trying to get the right players in, but they won’t be just signing someone for the sake of it. If we end the window having not made a major signing its a shame, but it isn’t the end of the world.
The point remains that we achieved what we did with the current squad because those for whom there is not adequate back up didn't get injured last season.

That isn't the level of depth necessary to ensure competitiveness if one player for the forward department goes down for any length of time.

The front three, in particular, have not had a summer off and are going to feel it at some point this season, by way of fatigue or potential overuse based injuries.

I agree that Robertson is a tricky one because we're talking about very specific and direct back up for one position. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed somehow.

The front three is a different situation. In a 60 match season that's 180 required appearances for the three positions, enough for 45 matches each for four similar level players.

Without a 4th proven quality forward we are very vulnerable to a long term injury to one of the front three, and for me such a forward should be being signed this summer.
 

ubermick

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The front three is a different situation. In a 60 match season that's 180 required appearances for the three positions, enough for 45 matches each for four similar level players.

Without a 4th proven quality forward we are very vulnerable to a long term injury to one of the front three, and for me such a forward should be being signed this summer.
Is there no case to be made at all that in his cameo roles last season Origi has earned the right to be in that conversation, along with Brewster who resigned with us on the premise that he'd be given a chance in the first team?
 

redfanman

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Is there no case to be made at all that in his cameo roles last season Origi has earned the right to be in that conversation, along with Brewster who resigned with us on the premise that he'd be given a chance in the first team?
I think that conversation should also include the prospect of switching up formation, to allow one of the front 3 a rest if appropriate.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Is there no case to be made at all that in his cameo roles last season Origi has earned the right to be in that conversation, along with Brewster who resigned with us on the premise that he'd be given a chance in the first team?
I've tried to address peoples expectations with regards Brewster.

Typically even young talents that become top or world class (Mbappe, Alexander-Arnold, Sterling and Sancho types) only tend to start 20-30 games during their second senior season.

I can maybe accept that Klopp may have worked enough with Brewster that they can skip the 5-15 starts these talents typically get in their debut year and move straight to year two. But even then there are plenty of starts and sub appearances available.

60-65 probable matches equals 180-195 starts and maybe 120-130 sub appearances?

Salah, Firmino and Mane pretty much started every single game they were available for and only started 137. That was with them being overplayed and only minor niggles leading to less than 5 games missed. We will be lucky to get that again.

For me there are at least 43 starts and anything up to and over 58 starts to cover and about 120 sub appearances on top of that.

Say 25 starts (extremely optimistic) and 10 sub appearances for Brewster.

135 starts (yet again very optimistic) and 10 sub appearances covered by Salah, Mane and Firmino.

That's 160 starts and 20 sub appearances covered. We would still have at least 20 starts and 100 sub appearances to cover.

At the most optimistic we can cope with what we have if there are no serious injuries but Origi will pretty much be starting or coming off the bench every single game hes available for (only actually made 7 starts last season so around triple) along with Shaqiri, Wilson and Ox needing to play in our front 3 a bit at least off the bench.

Personally I think we are just taking a lot of risks and I'm worried that Brewster or Origi may go the way of Insua by being played too much when they aren't (yet?) good enough and ready for that level of playing time and possibly get more criticism than they are ready for.

Playing Firmino, Salah and Mane as much as we are when they are playing every summer is increasing the risks of them developing injury issues. As a fan base we've seen it with Owen and Torres before.

Our main style of play is fantastic, it's the best around, got us to two CL finals winning one and got us to 97 points. But we are talking about players that are very very different in playing style playing significant amounts of minutes covering for players who are essential in that fantastic playing style. Will we be anywhere near as consistently impressive when we need these cover players to step up?

Sorry for the long waffling rant.
 



Limiescouse

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I think that conversation should also include the prospect of switching up formation, to allow one of the front 3 a rest if appropriate.
Something that should be more possible with the likes of Ox, Naby or Lallana available, and Sahq more settled.
 

Nikola

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Something that should be more possible with the likes of Ox, Naby or Lallana available, and Sahq more settled.
No pressure but the onus will definitely be on Keita and Oxlade-Chamberlain this season, especially if Firmino's, Salah's and Mane's form and fitness drop off, which won't be a surprise given they've barely had a breather over the last three years.

It's not looking too good for Keita, though, with all the niggles, his national team's coach behaving like a prick and putting his interests before Keita's long term prospects, the latest injury basically ruling him out of pre-season... I really hope I'm wrong.
 

Red over the water

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Jeez it's like Groundhog day in here.

:rolleyes:
I know! I think we need some juicy signings to get the conversation going.

I dread to think how many times I've written/read,

"I think we need another forward to go with the front three. The level drops off too much..."
"Yeah, but Brewster, what a player he might become!"
"I know, but it's a bit too much to ask of an unproven kid."
"Well don't forget Origi, scorer of big goals."
"I know, but don't forget all that time where he was on loan and wasn't doing anything much."
"Yes, but he's turned a corner now."
"I hope so. I hope this is his new found level."

"What about left back? Robbo can't play every game!"
"He's an athlete though, isn't he?"
"Yes, but we're fighting on SEVEN fronts next season. He can't play 60-70 games!"
"Milner will be a good back up."
"I love James Milner, but he can't get up and down the same way."
"Big Games James is the king of assists. He can fight Chuck Norris too."
"Maybe so, but no-one can fight Old Father Time."
"Yeah, but that Larouci kid looks good."
"He did after Tranmere, but I'm not sure after Bradford."
"We need a new back up left back."
"Yes, but what player of sufficient quality is going to want to come for just a few games?"

"Coutinho, now there's a good player. We need a lock picker!"
"He downed tools, don't forget how he left."
"Yes, but if Jurgen wants him back, who are we to argue?"
"Well the price better be right then!"
"Barcelona are paying installments. They still owe us 55M."
"Well maybe for 55M I'd do it."
"I dunno, we are a better team without him."
"Yes, but if he says he's really sorry."
"Oh, and drops his wage demands."

Bwaaark! Bwaaark!

I'm as guilty as anyone.

Roll on the start of the season!
 
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SpecialK210

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When assessing a squad, I look at the best 11, the number of senior outfield players in total, how many are genuinely rotatable, how many are usable.

Over the past few seasons the best 11 has clearly improved, though it's not entirely issue free. For me midfield lacks the lock picker.

It's notable that the senior outfield squad has reduced in size in recent seasons. In the autumn of 2017 we had 22 senior outfield players, which is currently 19. If Lovren and Clyne leave, that becomes 17 if we don't sign anyone.

How many are genuinely rotatable without the side being compromised? The clear issue there is full back and up top.

For me the two emergency only players in last season's squad were Moreno and Sturridge, so their release was a good thing.

The main issue from my perspective, particularly in respect of having no left footed alternative to Robertson, is the tempting of fate.

It's funny how things happen in life, and in football. The moment Clyne was loaned out, TAA got injured.

For me, running with 17, 18 or even 19 senior outfield players and zero similar type cover in certain areas is tempting fate.

If everyone remains fit, then the young lads can fill out the team sheet over a season in an organised way.

But 3 or 4 senior injuries and we're massively compromised.

I'm all for effectively throwing the domestic cups by fielding a side of younger players to blood them. But there's a big difference between that and having a 'development season' across all competitions because your senior squad wasn't deep enough, you got injuries, and ended up blooding kids in the PL and CL.
3 or 4 senior team injuries to the wrong players and EVERY team is massively compromised. City included.
 

Iluvatar

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I've tried to address peoples expectations with regards Brewster.

Typically even young talents that become top or world class (Mbappe, Alexander-Arnold, Sterling and Sancho types) only tend to start 20-30 games during their second senior season.

I can maybe accept that Klopp may have worked enough with Brewster that they can skip the 5-15 starts these talents typically get in their debut year and move straight to year two. But even then there are plenty of starts and sub appearances available.

60-65 probable matches equals 180-195 starts and maybe 120-130 sub appearances?

Salah, Firmino and Mane pretty much started every single game they were available for and only started 137. That was with them being overplayed and only minor niggles leading to less than 5 games missed. We will be lucky to get that again.

For me there are at least 43 starts and anything up to and over 58 starts to cover and about 120 sub appearances on top of that.

Say 25 starts (extremely optimistic) and 10 sub appearances for Brewster.

135 starts (yet again very optimistic) and 10 sub appearances covered by Salah, Mane and Firmino.

That's 160 starts and 20 sub appearances covered. We would still have at least 20 starts and 100 sub appearances to cover.

At the most optimistic we can cope with what we have if there are no serious injuries but Origi will pretty much be starting or coming off the bench every single game hes available for (only actually made 7 starts last season so around triple) along with Shaqiri, Wilson and Ox needing to play in our front 3 a bit at least off the bench.

Personally I think we are just taking a lot of risks and I'm worried that Brewster or Origi may go the way of Insua by being played too much when they aren't (yet?) good enough and ready for that level of playing time and possibly get more criticism than they are ready for.

Playing Firmino, Salah and Mane as much as we are when they are playing every summer is increasing the risks of them developing injury issues. As a fan base we've seen it with Owen and Torres before.

Our main style of play is fantastic, it's the best around, got us to two CL finals winning one and got us to 97 points. But we are talking about players that are very very different in playing style playing significant amounts of minutes covering for players who are essential in that fantastic playing style. Will we be anywhere near as consistently impressive when we need these cover players to step up?

Sorry for the long waffling rant.
Don’t we have a world class nutritionist and sports science team? Surely they would be stopping Klopp from overplaying his players no?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Don’t we have a world class nutritionist and sports science team? Surely they would be stopping Klopp from overplaying his players no?
How? "Yes Mr Klopp as I was saying Mr Mane has really really overplayed recently, hes in what we call the red zone. Maybe if you field Mr Lallana instead for a game or two? Oh yes hes injured isn't he? How about Alex? When is he back? Moreno? Does Origi offer anything from that position... yes I know you've played him there a few times already like we asked and I understand he stunk the place up with his limited build up play but. ... well.... he did score a few goals for you...."!

At the moment we are literally in a position where Liverpool play some of the best football on the planet. Providing Firmino, Mane and Salah are all playing and in at least ok form. When that isn't the case we may have the odd cracking result here and there but a run of 5-15 games or something? Not a chance. Anymore than a handful of games without them starting and we really start creaking. We certainly don't play anywhere near as good when them three are tired like the start of the year when all three were looking sluggish.

The staff are only human not miracle workers, they'll keep the players fit, get them back up to speed asap after injuries and keep Klopp updated on who is tired and at risk of injury (as I'm sure they were doing before Firmino got injured), but Klopp has to use what he has. If, for arguments sake, Mabappe 2020 is a real thing then Klopp will just do his best to get through this next year till he can bring him in. During that year Klopp will have to decide on a game by game basis on whether to risk overplaying players and risking injuries or jeopardising results by resting players when he doesn't really have perfect cover to come in for them.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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3 or 4 senior team injuries to the wrong players and EVERY team is massively compromised. City included.
Only if all in the same positions. If we had Mane or Salah suffer a season ending injury then I'm not sure we will be able to compete and play the same way next year as this. Knowing Klopp he would probably switch to some form of 4231 and make something work to get us through. But we won't be playing as well as we have recently.
 

Iluvatar

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How? "Yes Mr Klopp as I was saying Mr Mane has really really overplayed recently, hes in what we call the red zone. Maybe if you field Mr Lallana instead for a game or two? Oh yes hes injured isn't he? How about Alex? When is he back? Moreno? Does Origi offer anything from that position... yes I know you've played him there a few times already like we asked and I understand he stunk the place up with his limited build up play but. ... well.... he did score a few goals for you...."!

At the moment we are literally in a position where Liverpool play some of the best football on the planet. Providing Firmino, Mane and Salah are all playing and in at least ok form. When that isn't the case we may have the odd cracking result here and there but a run of 5-15 games or something? Not a chance. Anymore than a handful of games without them starting and we really start creaking. We certainly don't play anywhere near as good when them three are tired like the start of the year when all three were looking sluggish.

The staff are only human not miracle workers, they'll keep the players fit, get them back up to speed asap after injuries and keep Klopp updated on who is tired and at risk of injury (as I'm sure they were doing before Firmino got injured), but Klopp has to use what he has. If, for arguments sake, Mabappe 2020 is a real thing then Klopp will just do his best to get through this next year till he can bring him in. During that year Klopp will have to decide on a game by game basis on whether to risk overplaying players and risking injuries or jeopardising results by resting players when he doesn't really have perfect cover to come in for them.
What a strange response, Klopp has his players welfare above everything else. If they were at risk of injury from fatigue (as advised by the huge sports science team we employ) he’d rest them.

If you bothered to do some research you’d find Salah and Firmino in the top 10 players in the world for durability and ability to keep fit.
 



KYRed18

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The point remains that we achieved what we did with the current squad because those for whom there is not adequate back up didn't get injured last season.

That isn't the level of depth necessary to ensure competitiveness if one player for the forward department goes down for any length of time.

The front three, in particular, have not had a summer off and are going to feel it at some point this season, by way of fatigue or potential overuse based injuries.

I agree that Robertson is a tricky one because we're talking about very specific and direct back up for one position. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed somehow.

The front three is a different situation. In a 60 match season that's 180 required appearances for the three positions, enough for 45 matches each for four similar level players.

Without a 4th proven quality forward we are very vulnerable to a long term injury to one of the front three, and for me such a forward should be being signed this summer.
So you think a star player (Salah, Mane type, hell even Bobby) would be happy sitting out 25% of the games? That's what you are arguing for correct?
 

Speckydodge

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What a strange response, Klopp has his players welfare above everything else. If they were at risk of injury from fatigue (as advised by the huge sports science team we employ) he’d rest them.

If you bothered to do some research you’d find Salah and Firmino in the top 10 players in the world for durability and ability to keep fit.
Also Klopp has a background qualification in sports science himself and is acutely aware of the importance of it, he also completely trusts MR Origi and Mr Lallana and who are we doubt his judgement.
 

Claymenza

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Origi, Sturridge, shaqiri, lallana, keita, gomez were more than capable subs.
They were reliable enough that we could loan out a very capable clyne.

I'm with the sentiment that if klopp trusts the likes of lallana/henderson/lovren, we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
 

Mascot88

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The point remains that we achieved what we did with the current squad because those for whom there is not adequate back up didn't get injured last season.
No. We achieved what we achieved because we have a boss gang of lads who are better at football than all the other teams in Europe.

It’s about time you got to grips with that, and it’s about time you got to grips with the way Klopp wants to manage this team, which thus far has been hugely successful.

You basically keep posting the same thing over and over again. But it doesn’t change the fact that Klopp will not churn players, will not spend money when there are other options within the squad, will give young players a chance, and values a tight knit squad of players he can cultivate a close bond with.

At some point you need to have the courage of your convictions and actually admit that you don’t support the manager and want him replaced. Everything about the way you want to go about this football lark is conpletely at odds with the man.

That isn't the level of depth necessary to ensure competitiveness if one player for the forward department goes down for any length of time.

The front three, in particular, have not had a summer off and are going to feel it at some point this season, by way of fatigue or potential overuse based injuries.
I think you need to give the medical and sports science team a bit of credit. There is a reason Klopp has brought in the best in the business. You can’t do anything about impact injuries, they can happen to anyone at anytime, and you certainly can’t stockpile players on the offchance one happens. But we won’t be pushing lads into the red and risking strains and tears.

I agree that Robertson is a tricky one because we're talking about very specific and direct back up for one position. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed somehow.
Like looking within the existing squad for solutions? Or do you just mean buy a player?

The front three is a different situation. In a 60 match season that's 180 required appearances for the three positions, enough for 45 matches each for four similar level players.

Without a 4th proven quality forward we are very vulnerable to a long term injury to one of the front three, and for me such a forward should be being signed this summer.
And we should probably see how it pans out before jumping to conclusions.

Besides as Ubermick said, Origi has absolutely deserved to be considered a front six player, and everyone at the club seems to really believe in Brewster. He might have the kind of breakout year that renders this conversation void.

Also I think we will play 4231 on occasions with allows Salah, Mane or Firmino to get a game off while still putting eleven quality players on the pitch.

There are options, even without signing anyone. I think the club should have earned your trust, and Klopp in particular. If the boss says he is fine with what he has, his performance so far should be enough for any fan to accept that and look forward to the season.
 

Mascot88

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At the moment we are literally in a position where Liverpool play some of the best football on the planet. Providing Firmino, Mane and Salah are all playing and in at least ok form.
Not sure, but I seem to remember our boys delivering Barcelona the kind of thumping that they may not recover from, and I’m sure that Firmino and Salah weren’t playing.
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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Not sure, but I seem to remember our boys delivering Barcelona the kind of thumping that they may not recover from, and I’m sure that Firmino and Salah weren’t playing.
I did say we may have the odd cracking result here and there. Or do you believe that's how we will play every time we face that circumstance? Because seriously if that was a normal game and what we can expect why aren't we always playing that line up?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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What a strange response, Klopp has his players welfare above everything else. If they were at risk of injury from fatigue (as advised by the huge sports science team we employ) he’d rest them.

If you bothered to do some research you’d find Salah and Firmino in the top 10 players in the world for durability and ability to keep fit.
Firmino played a run of 5 games over 17 days in April. He only got rests in 2 of them playing 88% of the minutes available. He then picked up the kind of muscle injury associated with fatigue and being overplayed.
 

Flobs

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Firmino played a run of 5 games over 17 days in April. He only got rests in 2 of them playing 88% of the minutes available. He then picked up the kind of muscle injury associated with fatigue and being overplayed.
Which kind of muscle injury was that?
How do you know it was the kind of muscle injury associated with fatigue and overplaying?
Couldn't it have been one caused by being kicked in training or tackled in training or ...?
 

Mascot88

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I did say we may have the odd cracking result here and there. Or do you believe that's how we will play every time we face that circumstance? Because seriously if that was a normal game and what we can expect why aren't we always playing that line up?
It was an outstanding performance, possibly the best Anfield has seen. But we don’t need to play to that level every week.

A Liverpool starting Origi and Shaqiri over Salah and Firmino still has enough to beat most teams in the league.

A front three of Mane Salah and Firmino is still obviously the best we can put out. But I don’t think the drop off is quite as severe as you make out. Origi and Brewster, with Shaq and Ox able to drop in as well is still pretty good, and those options increase again if we move to a 4231.

Not saying we shouldn’t sign another forward - I think we should. But, like with Robertson, it isn’t the end of the world if we don’t.
 



Chewbazza

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It was an outstanding performance, possibly the best Anfield has seen. But we don’t need to play to that level every week.

A Liverpool starting Origi and Shaqiri over Salah and Firmino still has enough to beat most teams in the league.

A front three of Mane Salah and Firmino is still obviously the best we can put out. But I don’t think the drop off is quite as severe as you make out. Origi and Brewster, with Shaq and Ox able to drop in as well is still pretty good, and those options increase again if we move to a 4231.

Not saying we shouldn’t sign another forward - I think we should. But, like with Robertson, it isn’t the end of the world if we don’t.
Yes and just because we start with Orgi or Brewster or Ox or Shaqiri instead of or in combination with Mane/Salah/Bobby, doesn't mean they can't be on the bench and come on if needed.

Is it so unlikely that think of starting Origi or Shaqiri against the likes of Norwich, Brighton or Sheffield Utd and having a fresh Mane or Salah to bring on for the last 30 mins against a tiring defence IF needed.

If it were up to me entirely I would be looking to bring in a forward to play both wings, but if for whatever reason Klopp does not bring one in, then so be it.

Anyway, god forbid if we don't buy someone and then don't win a trophy, this place will be a nightmare.
 

Dutch

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The problem for me will not be mixing it up now and then but if serious injuries happen. Are going to play Shaq or Brewster for 6 months? Still, think we need an extra outstanding attacker as City have.
 

Iluvatar

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Firmino played a run of 5 games over 17 days in April. He only got rests in 2 of them playing 88% of the minutes available. He then picked up the kind of muscle injury associated with fatigue and being overplayed.
You still miss my original point. I'm not saying we don't need rotational options. I think it is;

Brewster
Origi
Kent or Wilson - If they prove themselves in pre-season and if they don't we go to market.

Unless a target of opportunity comes up.
 

Chewbazza

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You still miss my original point. I'm not saying we don't need rotational options. I think it is;

Brewster
Origi
Kent or Wilson - If they prove themselves in pre-season and if they don't we go to market.

Unless a target of opportunity comes up.
But Brewster CANNOT start more than 5 games because he's only 13 years old. Origi is only capable of scoring in high pressure situations and Kent/Wilson looked a bit leggy against Bradford for 45 minutes.

It is ESSENTIAL we buy Mbappe AND Icardi AND Neymar.

If Salah or Mane fall off a barstool and miss half the season we will definitely be relegated.
 

Iluvatar

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But Brewster CANNOT start more than 5 games because he's only 13 years old. Origi is only capable of scoring in high pressure situations and Kent/Wilson looked a bit leggy against Bradford for 45 minutes.

It is ESSENTIAL we buy Mbappe AND Icardi AND Neymar.

If Salah or Mane fall off a barstool and miss half the season we will definitely be relegated.
Our squad depth is so bad we are 2 injuries away from an emergency loan to get this guy https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnterry26/?originalSubdomain=uk in.