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Who would you buy?

Imgoingred

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We have been over Milner and his left foot sooo many times it's almost boring now.
No way can I go along with this statement above.
It is a problem for Milner to get into those crossing positions on the left due to his lack of speed hence having to use guile by using payers inside and hoping for a dope to miss his movement. However he has shown when given the opportunity he can cross with his left or right foot from the left.
So no he is not like Robbo on the left but he is capable of doing a good but different job.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking for other options just that it's not as pressing as to panic, yet.
There have been times when the majority of Milners assists have been made with his left foot so not fancying crossing with his left foot is nonsense. As the player inside him is Mané, Keita or Wijnaldum I really don't see what the problem is with him passing the ball that way is as Robbo himself often does it as well.
I just watched a highlights reel of Milner and a couple assists were with his left foot - not a majority. A little pedantic, but it wasn't my point anyway. I never said he cannot cross with his left. I said he doesn't fancy doing it - whether due to his lack of ability, opportunity, willingness to try (due to perceived or a real lack of pace/ability/confidence) or combination of the 3, it arrives at a similar issue - being the difference in play style and reduced threat on the left when he's there. I don't want any player who can't get into similar positions for any reason (whether it's lack of left-footed crosses, pace or willingness) deputising for Robbo. As you say, Milner does a different job, but our full-backs are such weapons/threats I believe we need a player with a similar skill set who can do the same job (not to be confused with doing as good a job as Robbo).

Part of what makes City such a deadly team is their style does not change when a player or two is/are out because the players replacing them are of similar skill set and ability. They are incredibly consistent. That's the consistency we need if we want to build a league winning dynasty.
 

RedForever2014

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When assessing a squad, I look at the best 11, the number of senior outfield players in total, how many are genuinely rotatable, how many are usable.

Over the past few seasons the best 11 has clearly improved, though it's not entirely issue free. For me midfield lacks the lock picker.

It's notable that the senior outfield squad has reduced in size in recent seasons. In the autumn of 2017 we had 22 senior outfield players, which is currently 19. If Lovren and Clyne leave, that becomes 17 if we don't sign anyone.

How many are genuinely rotatable without the side being compromised? The clear issue there is full back and up top.

For me the two emergency only players in last season's squad were Moreno and Sturridge, so their release was a good thing.

The main issue from my perspective, particularly in respect of having no left footed alternative to Robertson, is the tempting of fate.

It's funny how things happen in life, and in football. The moment Clyne was loaned out, TAA got injured.

For me, running with 17, 18 or even 19 senior outfield players and zero similar type cover in certain areas is tempting fate.

If everyone remains fit, then the young lads can fill out the team sheet over a season in an organised way.

But 3 or 4 senior injuries and we're massively compromised.

I'm all for effectively throwing the domestic cups by fielding a side of younger players to blood them. But there's a big difference between that and having a 'development season' across all competitions because your senior squad wasn't deep enough, you got injuries, and ended up blooding kids in the PL and CL.
 

Mascot88

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When assessing a squad, I look at the best 11, the number of senior outfield players in total, how many are genuinely rotatable, how many are usable.

Over the past few seasons the best 11 has clearly improved, though it's not entirely issue free. For me midfield lacks the lock picker.

It's notable that the senior outfield squad has reduced in size in recent seasons. In the autumn of 2017 we had 22 senior outfield players, which is currently 19. If Lovren and Clyne leave, that becomes 17 if we don't sign anyone.

How many are genuinely rotatable without the side being compromised? The clear issue there is full back and up top.

For me the two emergency only players in last season's squad were Moreno and Sturridge, so their release was a good thing.

The main issue from my perspective, particularly in respect of having no left footed alternative to Robertson, is the tempting of fate.

It's funny how things happen in life, and in football. The moment Clyne was loaned out, TAA got injured.

For me, running with 17, 18 or even 19 senior outfield players and zero similar type cover in certain areas is tempting fate.

If everyone remains fit, then the young lads can fill out the team sheet over a season in an organised way.

But 3 or 4 senior injuries and we're massively compromised.

I'm all for effectively throwing the domestic cups by fielding a side of younger players to blood them. But there's a big difference between that and having a 'development season' across all competitions because your senior squad wasn't deep enough, you got injuries, and ended up blooding kids in the PL and CL.
If may summarise what I think is the general consensus here?

We have a fantastic squad and good depth, as evidenced by putting a 97 point season and winning the European Cup.

If there is business to be done, we could do with some cover for Robertson, and another versatile front three option.

However, at the level we are at, finding the right players is difficult. A player who isn’t much of a drop off from Robertson is a tough one. Finding one who accepts he is second choice is nigh on impossible.

So we have a choice. Find someone who isn’t ideal, is happy to sit on the bench, or is a big step down from Robbo, or stick with what we have. I think that most of us, given that choice, would stick. There are players in the squad who can do a job for us, and while it would be preferable to get a specialist, we are long past the days of just bringing in anyone to fill a paper need.

At this point we probably just need to wait and see. Klopp has indicated that the club are trying to get the right players in, but they won’t be just signing someone for the sake of it. If we end the window having not made a major signing its a shame, but it isn’t the end of the world.
 

Red over the water

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Good summary Mascot88. And as for the lb position we are looking at what is coming through at the club, and Larouci may turn out to be that fast wing back type who can be understudy to Robbo.

If neither he more Lewis makes the grade, I’m sure we will go to market. I’m glad we are giving the lads here a chance to stake a claim. Neither Milner or Clyne are long term options in the position, but they give us some immediate back up there while we are seeing what the youngsters are made of.
 

GermanRed

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Klopp spent £400 on players since he came in.

My prediction is that he won't spend more than £200m until the end of his current contract.
 

Soyasource

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Potentially not having any of our front three up to speed before the season starts is a little concerning. Sell Harry Wilson and Ryan Kent and get either Kai Havertz or Hakim Ziyech. I'm not too worried about the LB position, we have James Milner in the event Robertson gets injured.
 

Limiescouse

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I just watched a highlights reel of Milner and a couple assists were with his left foot - not a majority. A little pedantic, but it wasn't my point anyway. I never said he cannot cross with his left. I said he doesn't fancy doing it - whether due to his lack of ability, opportunity, willingness to try (due to perceived or a real lack of pace/ability/confidence) or combination of the 3, it arrives at a similar issue - being the difference in play style and reduced threat on the left when he's there.
The stats suggest otherwise, as when he played there regularly he was very heavily involved in our goals. I think the stat was the single season record for CL assists. So, who cares if he tends not to use his left foot if still gets his crosses in and creates goals anyway?

Part of what makes City such a deadly team is their style does not change when a player or two is/are out because the players replacing them are of similar skill set and ability. They are incredibly consistent. That's the consistency we need if we want to build a league winning dynasty.
Alternatively, part of what makes City vulnerable against top sides is their lack of variation in the way they play.
 

Flobs

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I just watched a highlights reel of Milner and a couple assists were with his left foot - not a majority. A little pedantic, but it wasn't my point anyway. I never said he cannot cross with his left. I said he doesn't fancy doing it - whether due to his lack of ability, opportunity, willingness to try (due to perceived or a real lack of pace/ability/confidence) or combination of the 3, it arrives at a similar issue - being the difference in play style and reduced threat on the left when he's there. I don't want any player who can't get into similar positions for any reason (whether it's lack of left-footed crosses, pace or willingness) deputising for Robbo. As you say, Milner does a different job, but our full-backs are such weapons/threats I believe we need a player with a similar skill set who can do the same job (not to be confused with doing as good a job as Robbo).

Part of what makes City such a deadly team is their style does not change when a player or two is/are out because the players replacing them are of similar skill set and ability. They are incredibly consistent. That's the consistency we need if we want to build a league winning dynasty.
I was just pointing out what I consider a false arguement.
I agree we should be looking for a LB however we have a very capable deputy in Milner which just means we can take our time to insure we get someone in who's worth it. No point bringing in a lad with similar skill set to Robbo if he's less capable than Milner.
 

Nikola

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He also earned us about £300m in sales and loan fees.
According to Transfermarkt, his net spend at Liverpool is roughly 93 million euros (counting Camacho, who's not on their list at the moment) in transfer fees. Of course, wages, bonuses, signing-on fees are a different kettle of fish, and he also wasn't acting alone, but 93 million euros to turn a side that had Mignolet, Lovren, Škrtel, Allen and Benteke into one that lifted a European Cup... For month and a half, I've been thinking that I was perhaps committed to a mental institution and that none of this had happened, now I'm even more certain of that. But I'm not getting off this trip easily!
 

fspencer

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According to Transfermarkt, his net spend at Liverpool is roughly 93 million euros (counting Camacho, who's not on their list at the moment) in transfer fees. Of course, wages, bonuses, signing-on fees are a different kettle of fish, and he also wasn't acting alone, but 93 million euros to turn a side that had Mignolet, Lovren, Škrtel, Allen and Benteke into one that lifted a European Cup... For month and a half, I've been thinking that I was perhaps committed to a mental institution and that none of this had happened, now I'm even more certain of that. But I'm not getting off this trip easily!
i did a calculation the other day with regards to what ourselves and the two manc clubs have spent and recouped since 2007/08 ( when city got the first set of foreign owners )

man city - just over £1.6 billion recouping just £421 million

we have spent just under £1.1 billion but recouped £753 million

United spent around £1.18 billion and recouped £425 million

figures might be a few quid +/- as I rounded up and down to make them whole numbers .

we'd be well in profit considering the current value of our squad whereas the other 2 would fall well short of ever recouping what they have spent in that time period .
 
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Kopstar

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Just to add Chelsea to your list:

Spent £1.27 billion, recouped £771 million (according to transfermarkt).
 
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fspencer

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Just to add Chelsea to your list:

Spent £1.27 billion, recoupled £771 million (according to transfermarkt).
I wonder how much of that recouped comes from china ? ( ramires and oscar went for sums that weren't their true value )

chelsea would struggle to sell their first 11 and make a profit on that £1.27 billion even having already recouped £771 m. They've made some good profits on players that never or rarely featured for them though !

Many Liverpool supporters have complained over the years with regards to transfers but we've actually done remarkably well from a business point of view .

when it comes to who would you buy ? i'd have to say whoever the staff want ! they certainly know how to get the best out of anyone ! don't really think there is one player that i wish we had .
 

ubermick

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While current squad value/sellability might be testimony to the work Klopp/Edwards have done, the reality is that its neither here nor there for us fans. The one area the dissenters (whom I can't believe we still have) actually do have fertile ground is that as a fan I'm personally only arsed about what happens on the pitch, and trophies in the cabinet - and while the Champions League was great, I want more - notably the league.

Like I've pointed out though, we're blissfully past the point of buying whoever's available in an attempt to stop the bleeding, and are instead performing delicate surgery. And that's delicate work - and am delighted the lads in charge are carefully carefully using a scalpel rather than a hatchet.
 

RedForever2014

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If may summarise what I think is the general consensus here?

We have a fantastic squad and good depth, as evidenced by putting a 97 point season and winning the European Cup.

If there is business to be done, we could do with some cover for Robertson, and another versatile front three option.

However, at the level we are at, finding the right players is difficult. A player who isn’t much of a drop off from Robertson is a tough one. Finding one who accepts he is second choice is nigh on impossible.

So we have a choice. Find someone who isn’t ideal, is happy to sit on the bench, or is a big step down from Robbo, or stick with what we have. I think that most of us, given that choice, would stick. There are players in the squad who can do a job for us, and while it would be preferable to get a specialist, we are long past the days of just bringing in anyone to fill a paper need.

At this point we probably just need to wait and see. Klopp has indicated that the club are trying to get the right players in, but they won’t be just signing someone for the sake of it. If we end the window having not made a major signing its a shame, but it isn’t the end of the world.
The point remains that we achieved what we did with the current squad because those for whom there is not adequate back up didn't get injured last season.

That isn't the level of depth necessary to ensure competitiveness if one player for the forward department goes down for any length of time.

The front three, in particular, have not had a summer off and are going to feel it at some point this season, by way of fatigue or potential overuse based injuries.

I agree that Robertson is a tricky one because we're talking about very specific and direct back up for one position. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed somehow.

The front three is a different situation. In a 60 match season that's 180 required appearances for the three positions, enough for 45 matches each for four similar level players.

Without a 4th proven quality forward we are very vulnerable to a long term injury to one of the front three, and for me such a forward should be being signed this summer.
 

ubermick

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The front three is a different situation. In a 60 match season that's 180 required appearances for the three positions, enough for 45 matches each for four similar level players.

Without a 4th proven quality forward we are very vulnerable to a long term injury to one of the front three, and for me such a forward should be being signed this summer.
Is there no case to be made at all that in his cameo roles last season Origi has earned the right to be in that conversation, along with Brewster who resigned with us on the premise that he'd be given a chance in the first team?
 

redfanman

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Is there no case to be made at all that in his cameo roles last season Origi has earned the right to be in that conversation, along with Brewster who resigned with us on the premise that he'd be given a chance in the first team?
I think that conversation should also include the prospect of switching up formation, to allow one of the front 3 a rest if appropriate.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Is there no case to be made at all that in his cameo roles last season Origi has earned the right to be in that conversation, along with Brewster who resigned with us on the premise that he'd be given a chance in the first team?
I've tried to address peoples expectations with regards Brewster.

Typically even young talents that become top or world class (Mbappe, Alexander-Arnold, Sterling and Sancho types) only tend to start 20-30 games during their second senior season.

I can maybe accept that Klopp may have worked enough with Brewster that they can skip the 5-15 starts these talents typically get in their debut year and move straight to year two. But even then there are plenty of starts and sub appearances available.

60-65 probable matches equals 180-195 starts and maybe 120-130 sub appearances?

Salah, Firmino and Mane pretty much started every single game they were available for and only started 137. That was with them being overplayed and only minor niggles leading to less than 5 games missed. We will be lucky to get that again.

For me there are at least 43 starts and anything up to and over 58 starts to cover and about 120 sub appearances on top of that.

Say 25 starts (extremely optimistic) and 10 sub appearances for Brewster.

135 starts (yet again very optimistic) and 10 sub appearances covered by Salah, Mane and Firmino.

That's 160 starts and 20 sub appearances covered. We would still have at least 20 starts and 100 sub appearances to cover.

At the most optimistic we can cope with what we have if there are no serious injuries but Origi will pretty much be starting or coming off the bench every single game hes available for (only actually made 7 starts last season so around triple) along with Shaqiri, Wilson and Ox needing to play in our front 3 a bit at least off the bench.

Personally I think we are just taking a lot of risks and I'm worried that Brewster or Origi may go the way of Insua by being played too much when they aren't (yet?) good enough and ready for that level of playing time and possibly get more criticism than they are ready for.

Playing Firmino, Salah and Mane as much as we are when they are playing every summer is increasing the risks of them developing injury issues. As a fan base we've seen it with Owen and Torres before.

Our main style of play is fantastic, it's the best around, got us to two CL finals winning one and got us to 97 points. But we are talking about players that are very very different in playing style playing significant amounts of minutes covering for players who are essential in that fantastic playing style. Will we be anywhere near as consistently impressive when we need these cover players to step up?

Sorry for the long waffling rant.
 

Limiescouse

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I think that conversation should also include the prospect of switching up formation, to allow one of the front 3 a rest if appropriate.
Something that should be more possible with the likes of Ox, Naby or Lallana available, and Sahq more settled.
 

Nikola

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Something that should be more possible with the likes of Ox, Naby or Lallana available, and Sahq more settled.
No pressure but the onus will definitely be on Keita and Oxlade-Chamberlain this season, especially if Firmino's, Salah's and Mane's form and fitness drop off, which won't be a surprise given they've barely had a breather over the last three years.

It's not looking too good for Keita, though, with all the niggles, his national team's coach behaving like a prick and putting his interests before Keita's long term prospects, the latest injury basically ruling him out of pre-season... I really hope I'm wrong.
 

Red over the water

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Jeez it's like Groundhog day in here.

:rolleyes:
I know! I think we need some juicy signings to get the conversation going.

I dread to think how many times I've written/read,

"I think we need another forward to go with the front three. The level drops off too much..."
"Yeah, but Brewster, what a player he might become!"
"I know, but it's a bit too much to ask of an unproven kid."
"Well don't forget Origi, scorer of big goals."
"I know, but don't forget all that time where he was on loan and wasn't doing anything much."
"Yes, but he's turned a corner now."
"I hope so. I hope this is his new found level."

"What about left back? Robbo can't play every game!"
"He's an athlete though, isn't he?"
"Yes, but we're fighting on SEVEN fronts next season. He can't play 60-70 games!"
"Milner will be a good back up."
"I love James Milner, but he can't get up and down the same way."
"Big Games James is the king of assists. He can fight Chuck Norris too."
"Maybe so, but no-one can fight Old Father Time."
"Yeah, but that Larouci kid looks good."
"He did after Tranmere, but I'm not sure after Bradford."
"We need a new back up left back."
"Yes, but what player of sufficient quality is going to want to come for just a few games?"

"Coutinho, now there's a good player. We need a lock picker!"
"He downed tools, don't forget how he left."
"Yes, but if Jurgen wants him back, who are we to argue?"
"Well the price better be right then!"
"Barcelona are paying installments. They still owe us 55M."
"Well maybe for 55M I'd do it."
"I dunno, we are a better team without him."
"Yes, but if he says he's really sorry."
"Oh, and drops his wage demands."

Bwaaark! Bwaaark!

I'm as guilty as anyone.

Roll on the start of the season!
 



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SpecialK210

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When assessing a squad, I look at the best 11, the number of senior outfield players in total, how many are genuinely rotatable, how many are usable.

Over the past few seasons the best 11 has clearly improved, though it's not entirely issue free. For me midfield lacks the lock picker.

It's notable that the senior outfield squad has reduced in size in recent seasons. In the autumn of 2017 we had 22 senior outfield players, which is currently 19. If Lovren and Clyne leave, that becomes 17 if we don't sign anyone.

How many are genuinely rotatable without the side being compromised? The clear issue there is full back and up top.

For me the two emergency only players in last season's squad were Moreno and Sturridge, so their release was a good thing.

The main issue from my perspective, particularly in respect of having no left footed alternative to Robertson, is the tempting of fate.

It's funny how things happen in life, and in football. The moment Clyne was loaned out, TAA got injured.

For me, running with 17, 18 or even 19 senior outfield players and zero similar type cover in certain areas is tempting fate.

If everyone remains fit, then the young lads can fill out the team sheet over a season in an organised way.

But 3 or 4 senior injuries and we're massively compromised.

I'm all for effectively throwing the domestic cups by fielding a side of younger players to blood them. But there's a big difference between that and having a 'development season' across all competitions because your senior squad wasn't deep enough, you got injuries, and ended up blooding kids in the PL and CL.
3 or 4 senior team injuries to the wrong players and EVERY team is massively compromised. City included.
 

Iluvatar

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I've tried to address peoples expectations with regards Brewster.

Typically even young talents that become top or world class (Mbappe, Alexander-Arnold, Sterling and Sancho types) only tend to start 20-30 games during their second senior season.

I can maybe accept that Klopp may have worked enough with Brewster that they can skip the 5-15 starts these talents typically get in their debut year and move straight to year two. But even then there are plenty of starts and sub appearances available.

60-65 probable matches equals 180-195 starts and maybe 120-130 sub appearances?

Salah, Firmino and Mane pretty much started every single game they were available for and only started 137. That was with them being overplayed and only minor niggles leading to less than 5 games missed. We will be lucky to get that again.

For me there are at least 43 starts and anything up to and over 58 starts to cover and about 120 sub appearances on top of that.

Say 25 starts (extremely optimistic) and 10 sub appearances for Brewster.

135 starts (yet again very optimistic) and 10 sub appearances covered by Salah, Mane and Firmino.

That's 160 starts and 20 sub appearances covered. We would still have at least 20 starts and 100 sub appearances to cover.

At the most optimistic we can cope with what we have if there are no serious injuries but Origi will pretty much be starting or coming off the bench every single game hes available for (only actually made 7 starts last season so around triple) along with Shaqiri, Wilson and Ox needing to play in our front 3 a bit at least off the bench.

Personally I think we are just taking a lot of risks and I'm worried that Brewster or Origi may go the way of Insua by being played too much when they aren't (yet?) good enough and ready for that level of playing time and possibly get more criticism than they are ready for.

Playing Firmino, Salah and Mane as much as we are when they are playing every summer is increasing the risks of them developing injury issues. As a fan base we've seen it with Owen and Torres before.

Our main style of play is fantastic, it's the best around, got us to two CL finals winning one and got us to 97 points. But we are talking about players that are very very different in playing style playing significant amounts of minutes covering for players who are essential in that fantastic playing style. Will we be anywhere near as consistently impressive when we need these cover players to step up?

Sorry for the long waffling rant.
Don’t we have a world class nutritionist and sports science team? Surely they would be stopping Klopp from overplaying his players no?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Don’t we have a world class nutritionist and sports science team? Surely they would be stopping Klopp from overplaying his players no?
How? "Yes Mr Klopp as I was saying Mr Mane has really really overplayed recently, hes in what we call the red zone. Maybe if you field Mr Lallana instead for a game or two? Oh yes hes injured isn't he? How about Alex? When is he back? Moreno? Does Origi offer anything from that position... yes I know you've played him there a few times already like we asked and I understand he stunk the place up with his limited build up play but. ... well.... he did score a few goals for you...."!

At the moment we are literally in a position where Liverpool play some of the best football on the planet. Providing Firmino, Mane and Salah are all playing and in at least ok form. When that isn't the case we may have the odd cracking result here and there but a run of 5-15 games or something? Not a chance. Anymore than a handful of games without them starting and we really start creaking. We certainly don't play anywhere near as good when them three are tired like the start of the year when all three were looking sluggish.

The staff are only human not miracle workers, they'll keep the players fit, get them back up to speed asap after injuries and keep Klopp updated on who is tired and at risk of injury (as I'm sure they were doing before Firmino got injured), but Klopp has to use what he has. If, for arguments sake, Mabappe 2020 is a real thing then Klopp will just do his best to get through this next year till he can bring him in. During that year Klopp will have to decide on a game by game basis on whether to risk overplaying players and risking injuries or jeopardising results by resting players when he doesn't really have perfect cover to come in for them.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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3 or 4 senior team injuries to the wrong players and EVERY team is massively compromised. City included.
Only if all in the same positions. If we had Mane or Salah suffer a season ending injury then I'm not sure we will be able to compete and play the same way next year as this. Knowing Klopp he would probably switch to some form of 4231 and make something work to get us through. But we won't be playing as well as we have recently.