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Who would you buy?

Anfield rd Dreamer

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It's this season (Feb). My point though was that the point we know for certain we'll need the attacking cover is right at the start of the season - Mane's only now heading off on holiday, probably three weeks, and could miss a bunch of matches before he's back up to speed, while Salah and Firmino aren't a lot further ahead in terms of preparation - which means even if we were to sign someone now it's unlikely they'd be a realistic option for that opening period.

If we were concerned about our cover for that period I think we'd have made a more concerted effort to bring someone in weeks ago, and by extension if Klopp is happy with the current options covering that spell then he's most likely happy with them being cover for the season as a whole. Which makes me think it's unlikely we will bring in anyone.

I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand we'll obviously be fine for the most part, on the other the margin of error for winning the title now is so slim then, hand on heart, I can't say that won't prove to be the difference between finishing first and not.
We just simply won't be maximizing our chances. Hopefully we will still win big despite the lack of depth and options like we did this year (proving it can be done). Fingers crossed.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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We just simply won't be maximizing our chances. Hopefully we will still win big despite the lack of depth and options like we did this year (proving it can be done). Fingers crossed.
Sure, at the end of the day Klopp knows these players better than any of us, and while he loves developing youngsters I'm sure he wouldn't compromise winning a title just to better do that. If he's happy that what he's got can achieve the season's targets, then who are we to argue?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Sure, because that suits your argument. In reality there is little basis for such a statement.

In that time period we had numerous long breaks. 7 days between Brighton and Palace. 11 days between Palace and Leicester. 10 days between Bournemouth and Munich. It was actually one of the times in the season where we had long breaks between matches.

We even had time for a trip to Dubai ffs

What actually happened is we had a dip, as is normal for every team. Numerous players came down with illnesses if you remember correctly. Klopp hadn't quite settled on a midfield combo. Numerous injuries at centre back. Trent got injured.

It was a combination of things all coming at once. What it wasn't was too many games for our front 3 to handle.
It's not how much they played during that period. They had already been run into the ground going into that period. Its accumulated fatigue not immediate tiredness. They aren't getting rested. They're playing so much more in one of the toughest, most physically demanding, playing styles and leagues out there. They're playing every summer too. We had a dip around the same time the season before too. Just after one of the heaviest concentrations of playing time in the season. Oh well you don't agree fine. Different opinions.
 

ILLOK

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It's not how much they played during that period. They had already been run into the ground going into that period. Its accumulated fatigue not immediate tiredness. They aren't getting rested. They're playing so much more in one of the toughest, most physically demanding, playing styles and leagues out there. They're playing every summer too. We had a dip around the same time the season before too. Just after one of the heaviest concentrations of playing time in the season. Oh well you don't agree fine. Different opinions.
Fatigue is a real thing, and maybe there was a bit of it there, but it is no coincidence that our team looked at its worst when half the squad seemed to have a virus. That will make you look fatigued itself.

Klopp and his team know how to manage fatigue, stop worrying yourself over it.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Sure, at the end of the day Klopp knows these players better than any of us, and while he loves developing youngsters I'm sure he wouldn't compromise winning a title just to better do that. If he's happy that what he's got can achieve the season's targets, then who are we to argue?
I don't think its that. I think its waiting for the right targets.

I'm also not saying it's the wrong thing to do in general either. I just disagree with some who seem to believe that it wont harm us short term.

I think we will experience some short term pain for long term gain and in many ways it's the right thing to do but I'm not going to look at the short term picture and say it's all rosy. It isn't.

It's like when we did the VvD deal. We needed a CB, for multiple reasons we identified the very best we could possibly recruit in VvD. We couldn't bring him in that summer so we took the short term pain of going without him for half a season to bring him in that winter and get the long term benefit. There was most definitely long term gain from it but we suffered that half season going without anyone. We could have done better in the league and cups that season if we'd had someone else all year instead of VvD for half of it. But long term we definitely benefited more waiting for the right guy.

It was and remains the correct course of action but its rough going in the short term and I don't think people are wrong for pointing it out, discussing it and wishing the short term pain could be avoided (especially in a fantasy thread like this).

My guess this season is that Klopp once again has identified exactly who he wants but their availability on the market is the issue. Let's say for arguments sake he has identified Achraf Hakimi and Kylian Mbappe.

Achraf Hakimi is owned by Real Madrid on a two year loan at Dortmund about to start the second. From what I can gather he seems a real good fit for our full back needs, is able to play both sides, doesn't seem to have a long term future with Real and is a young promising prospect. We wouldn't be able to attempt to sign him till next summer so if the decision had been made to wait for him I could understand it. It would also give our youth prospects another years development and opportunities to see if they can stake a claim and avoid the need to buy him full stop. Smart move but going with him or an alternative would make us stronger this season.

We might really be in for Kylian Mbappe. The arrangements may have all been made ready. We might just be waiting to see if PSG are successful moving Neymar on or need to raise funds this season in an alternative way. If not maybe we move next summer for him. Now waiting for Mbappe instead of getting an alternative? Only ever going to decide on Mbappe. But if there is a need and a role for someone like Mbappe then you can't pretend you'll do just as well with that role empty as you would with it filled. We wouldn't be moving someone on to then bring him in.

In both cases we would be stronger for this season if we brought an alternative in. But going without them and waiting for the right player next summer may make us better and stronger in the long term. I'd accept that. But don't spit in my face and tell me it's raining. Until we do bring those players in (which even if we wait may not happen) I'll be under no illusions about any short term issues we will be going through. Its people saying we will be fine and we don't need anyone that are annoying me. Of course we do, wouldn't need to wait for the right targets if there was no need at all.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Fatigue is a real thing, and maybe there was a bit of it there, but it is no coincidence that our team looked at its worst when half the squad seemed to have a virus. That will make you look fatigued itself.

Klopp and his team know how to manage fatigue, stop worrying yourself over it.
You're more likely to pick up bugs and viruses when you're tired or stressed. We seem to hit a brick wall in our attacking play around that time each season. The VvD arrival saw us navigate the last slump a little better but our results weren't as consistently good that season for it to show up more starkly either.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I don't think its that. I think its waiting for the right targets.

I'm also not saying it's the wrong thing to do in general either. I just disagree with some who seem to believe that it wont harm us short term.

I think we will experience some short term pain for long term gain and in many ways it's the right thing to do but I'm not going to look at the short term picture and say it's all rosy. It isn't.

It's like when we did the VvD deal. We needed a CB, for multiple reasons we identified the very best we could possibly recruit in VvD. We couldn't bring him in that summer so we took the short term pain of going without him for half a season to bring him in that winter and get the long term benefit. There was most definitely long term gain from it but we suffered that half season going without anyone. We could have done better in the league and cups that season if we'd had someone else all year instead of VvD for half of it. But long term we definitely benefited more waiting for the right guy.

It was and remains the correct course of action but its rough going in the short term and I don't think people are wrong for pointing it out, discussing it and wishing the short term pain could be avoided (especially in a fantasy thread like this).

My guess this season is that Klopp once again has identified exactly who he wants but their availability on the market is the issue. Let's say for arguments sake he has identified Achraf Hakimi and Kylian Mbappe.

Achraf Hakimi is owned by Real Madrid on a two year loan at Dortmund about to start the second. From what I can gather he seems a real good fit for our full back needs, is able to play both sides, doesn't seem to have a long term future with Real and is a young promising prospect. We wouldn't be able to attempt to sign him till next summer so if the decision had been made to wait for him I could understand it. It would also give our youth prospects another years development and opportunities to see if they can stake a claim and avoid the need to buy him full stop. Smart move but going with him or an alternative would make us stronger this season.

We might really be in for Kylian Mbappe. The arrangements may have all been made ready. We might just be waiting to see if PSG are successful moving Neymar on or need to raise funds this season in an alternative way. If not maybe we move next summer for him. Now waiting for Mbappe instead of getting an alternative? Only ever going to decide on Mbappe. But if there is a need and a role for someone like Mbappe then you can't pretend you'll do just as well with that role empty as you would with it filled. We wouldn't be moving someone on to then bring him in.

In both cases we would be stronger for this season if we brought an alternative in. But going without them and waiting for the right player next summer may make us better and stronger in the long term. I'd accept that. But don't spit in my face and tell me it's raining. Until we do bring those players in (which even if we wait may not happen) I'll be under no illusions about any short term issues we will be going through. Its people saying we will be fine and we don't need anyone that are annoying me. Of course we do, wouldn't need to wait for the right targets if there was no need at all.
I don't think we're on massively different pages, I just think that if Klopp had identified a genuine concern, as in something that would threaten our chances of achieving our goals this season, we wouldn't be waiting for the right targets, we'd have gone into the market more decisively. Maybe not for the Mbappes of the world, but for one of the other players we've no doubt identified as being of interest.

If we're waiting for targets, as I agree we probably are, then it's because Klopp is generally satisfied that the players available will be able to challenge for the title and any further additions, while nice to have, are not essential to doing so. In his opinion, which I've come to trust.

I can't say with absolute certainty that won't come back to bite us, but I do think Klopp has more than earned the right to be the one to make that call.
 

ILLOK

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He is correct though.
Scientifically, sure. To all intents and purposes, he is not.

These pre-season sessions will be more taxing on the body than whatever goes on during the season. You're simply far more likely to pick up a virus during the winter. It's that simple.

Strenuous exercise will increase that risk, but there is no way around that for professional footballers. Klopp gave these players plenty of rest in the january and they were still picking up viruses. They did not pick up viruses due to an overly high workload, in fact IIRC a lot of these viruses were picked up in the breaks between matches.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Scientifically, sure. To all intents and purposes, he is not.

These pre-season sessions will be more taxing on the body than whatever goes on during the season. You're simply far more likely to pick up a virus during the winter. It's that simple.

Strenuous exercise will increase that risk, but there is no way around that for professional footballers. Klopp gave these players plenty of rest in the january and they were still picking up viruses. They did not pick up viruses due to an overly high workload, in fact IIRC a lot of these viruses were picked up in the breaks between matches.
As a parent I can tell you most of those winter viruses we pick up originate with the kids. Schools are germ factories, especially around the winter months, and there's no way of avoiding them. Our house has been like a plague quarantine zone for the past three years between November and Feb.

So, I agree, they're not really things you can mitigate with squad size, resting or rotation, unless you're talking about having bodies to step in when the inevitable occurs.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I don't think we're on massively different pages, I just think that if Klopp had identified a genuine concern, as in something that would threaten our chances of achieving our goals this season, we wouldn't be waiting for the right targets, we'd have gone into the market more decisively. Maybe not for the Mbappes of the world, but for one of the other players we've no doubt identified as being of interest.

If we're waiting for targets, as I agree we probably are, then it's because Klopp is generally satisfied that the players available will be able to challenge for the title and any further additions, while nice to have, are not essential to doing so. In his opinion, which I've come to trust.

I can't say with absolute certainty that won't come back to bite us, but I do think Klopp has more than earned the right to be the one to make that call.
Hes earned the right. Definitely. And if we end up signing the right long term target itll be worth it from a long term point of view. But I do think Klopp will take a few small sacrifices in the short term for long term benefit. He definitely did with VvD and Keita, neither replaced others. When they came in they filled missing holes. We went without players in those roles. It seemed like we were willing to do it over Alisson being prepared to wait with Karius till Roma dropped their price demands. And just to make sure people are clear on my stance 100% I agree with what Klopp is doing. But it is damaging in the short term.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Hes earned the right. Definitely. And if we end up signing the right long term target itll be worth it from a long term point of view. But I do think Klopp will take a few small sacrifices in the short term for long term benefit. He definitely did with VvD and Keita, neither replaced others. When they came in they filled missing holes. We went without players in those roles. It seemed like we were willing to do it over Alisson being prepared to wait with Karius till Roma dropped their price demands. And just to make sure people are clear on my stance 100% I agree with what Klopp is doing. But it is damaging in the short term.
I think the difference between now and those examples is at the time the club went all-out to bring in VVD and Keita asap, did everything they could to make it happen and for differing reasons were forced to back off and bide their time. Alisson a bit different, but still the world and its wife knew we were after him from the spring onwards, and in the end we were still prepared to break the bank (at the time a world record for a keeper) to bring him in.

Whereas this summer all you really have is dubious speculation without any tangible links - in fact the journos closest to the club repeatedly stating very little is happening or is expected to happen. We've got better at keeping a lid on things, but even so if we did have irons in the fire we'd have heard something more.

It makes me think any pursuit for players is at a stage much less advanced than those previous failed moves for players, probably little more than idle interest and a word to various agents along the lines of "we're prepared to pay x, let us know when that has a chance of being accepted"... an approach which makes me think it's less biding our time and being prepared to sacrifice the short-term, and more the usual sort of long-term squad-building any club has simmering away in the background.

Whether that's the right approach, time will tell.

If I had to sum up my position it would be cautiously hopeful. I have concerns about depth in a couple of places but faith the club, and more precisely Klopp, know what they're doing.
 

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I think any delay in getting in new players could be down to a few factors. Copa America, AFCON, lack of major player movement generally, and a desire by Klopp to give returning loanees and academy players a proper opportunity to show him whether they're ready and capable of making the step up. The squad is generally in a very healthy position, which allows the club to be patient. For the first time in years there are no glaring holes in (/obvious upgrades to) the first team.
 

GaryBarlow99

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I think any delay in getting in new players could be down to a few factors. Copa America, AFCON, lack of major player movement generally, and a desire by Klopp to give returning loanees and academy players a proper opportunity to show him whether they're ready and capable of making the step up. The squad is generally in a very healthy position, which allows the club to be patient. For the first time in years there are no glaring holes in (/obvious upgrades to) the first team.
Probably waiting for a few clubs to drop their insane valuations of players as well.
 

redfanman

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I think the difference between now and those examples is at the time the club went all-out to bring in VVD and Keita asap, did everything they could to make it happen and for differing reasons were forced to back off and bide their time. Alisson a bit different, but still the world and its wife knew we were after him from the spring onwards, and in the end we were still prepared to break the bank (at the time a world record for a keeper) to bring him in.

Whereas this summer all you really have is dubious speculation without any tangible links - in fact the journos closest to the club repeatedly stating very little is happening or is expected to happen. We've got better at keeping a lid on things, but even so if we did have irons in the fire we'd have heard something more.

It makes me think any pursuit for players is at a stage much less advanced than those previous failed moves for players, probably little more than idle interest and a word to various agents along the lines of "we're prepared to pay x, let us know when that has a chance of being accepted"... an approach which makes me think it's less biding our time and being prepared to sacrifice the short-term, and more the usual sort of long-term squad-building any club has simmering away in the background.

Whether that's the right approach, time will tell.

If I had to sum up my position it would be cautiously hopeful. I have concerns about depth in a couple of places but faith the club, and more precisely Klopp, know what they're doing.
I think this latter point is key. Klopp doesnt just build for the short term, but fans can't help but think in this way.
 

Limiescouse

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I think any delay in getting in new players could be down to a few factors. Copa America, AFCON, lack of major player movement generally, and a desire by Klopp to give returning loanees and academy players a proper opportunity to show him whether they're ready and capable of making the step up. The squad is generally in a very healthy position, which allows the club to be patient. For the first time in years there are no glaring holes in (/obvious upgrades to) the first team.
So to that point, what are the thoughts on Wilson now after a few pre-season games? Do we think we're seeing enough from him to suggest the can fill an important role?
 

MarcusBerglund

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We need to improve the squad. Our starting eleven is on par with the best in the world, but you can't play 60+ matches only with your best eleven in modern football.
LFC lost Moreno and Sturridge.

At the moment and at least for a season Larouci and Lewis are not and will not even be close at the required level of playing for a team fighting for the title and trying to win the CL. Milner is not the right option to play left back, especially when other teams play specialist winger vs. him. Just look at the way Zaha played vs. Milner, looked like there was no resistance at this situation and that is what happens when you don't have a specialist full back to cover you /happily for us Palace also did not have enough cover at GK and we won, but that is another reminder/.

We have a lot of players with poor injury record - Gomez, Lallana, Lovren, AOC, Matip. Sadly even Naby Keita is slowly going into the same group.

Matip has never played more than 29 PL games for Liverpool and every season since he signed for us he missed at least two months because of injuries.

Lovren has also never played more than 29 PL games for Liverpool and he has never managed to stay injury free and start 6 consecutive games for LFC.

Joe Gomez best season was in 2017/2018 when he played 23 PL games, after 4 seasons at Liverpool he has played just 53 PL games for LFC /that is exactly 13 games per season/. The talent is there, the quality is also there, but injuries happen every season and it is not a coincidence.

Lallana had two decent seasons for the club, but from 2017 till now he has played 26 games in the PL /only 7 starts/. And at the moment he is injured again, and competitive football is 3 week away, but still the same story.

Keita missed almost 3 months last season because of injuries. And at the moment he is still injured, I am not sure if he will have a proper preseason.
Shaqiri is injured too and there is a growing probability he won't be ready for the start of the season.

Mane is in top 8 of the players who played most minutes in Europe for the past 2 seasons, Salah has played more than him.
Firmino had a long and exhausting season and for a first time in his Liverpool career he missed more than a month because of injuries. On the top of that Bobby played almost every minute of Copa America.

There is no adeqaute cover for Robertson and in attacking areas. Kent and Wilson are good players, but if we aim for the highest prizes, they won't be the solution.
Sadly the club and some fans had the same hopes for players such as Klavan, Karius, Solanke, Ings, Ojo, Markovic, Ward.
Last season was the prime example of improving not only the first 11, but also the squad - Keita, Fabinho, Shaqiri, Alisson.
I don't want the club to spend money for the sake of it, but there are holes in the squad that must be fixed.
For example player like Ryan Sessegnon is available and with one strike we can solve two probles - left footer who can cover two positions on our left side.
Phillip Max is also a decent option for cover of TAA and Robbo.
Timo Werner is alailable for less then 35 mln. pounds.
Signing two young and promising players for 55-60 mln. pounds at today's crazy market is a no brainer, epsecially when LFC need bodies.
Now you can continue with the mantra that Wilson, Kent and Brewster are enough for us to win the title, but they are not. Rhian has the talent and hopefully he will become a great player for us, but at the moment he has never started for the club in any competition and nobody knows what will be his season. I expect that he will mostly start in cup competitions and Klopp will introduce him slowly as he does usually.
And every journos /with connections to the club/ wrote that if the right offer arrives Kent /club is asking 10-12 mln. pounds/ and Wilson /25 mln. pounds is the quoted number/ will be sold. In my opinion they are expendable for Klopp and that means only one thing, Juergen doesn't think that they can reach the level of Salah and Mane. As I said Brewester is a different story /it is enough to read how many times Klopp praised him which is not very usual from our manager/, but he will need time and guidance /again Klopp's words./
 

Sweeting

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We need to improve the squad. Our starting eleven is on par with the best in the world, but you can't play 60+ matches only with your best eleven in modern football.
LFC lost Moreno and Sturridge.

At the moment and at least for a season Larouci and Lewis are not and will not even be close at the required level of playing for a team fighting for the title and trying to win the CL.
That's OK, neither was Moreno.
 

Limiescouse

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That's OK, neither was Moreno.
Zaha is one of the best open space dribblers in the world. Using one time when he went by Milner as a reason for Milner not being good enough there is nuts. In that situation I dont expect TAA or Clyne to have done much better. It was also not something else he was able to replicate for the rest of the game, and Milner more than made up for it with the rest of his game.
 

Sweeting

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Zaha is one of the best open space dribblers in the world. Using one time when he went by Milner as a reason for Milner not being good enough there is nuts. In that situation I dont expect TAA or Clyne to have done much better. It was also not something else he was able to replicate for the rest of the game, and Milner more than made up for it with the rest of his game.
Zaha rips us apart everytime we play Palace. He took Milner apart last season, Trent the year before - people pretend he's an average player because Moyes mismanaged him at Utd but he is easily the best player outside the top 6 and would start for everyone besides us and City (but he would be heavily used in rotation)
 

Zinedine Biscan

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So to that point, what are the thoughts on Wilson now after a few pre-season games? Do we think we're seeing enough from him to suggest the can fill an important role?
If it was up to me I'd absolutely keep Wilson as part of the squad this season. Everything I've read covering our preseason though has suggested he's expected to leave on loan or be sold, though.
 

ILLOK

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Back to the actual topic at hand, if I was picking a winger from the league to play second fiddle I'd probably look no further than Anderson. His workrate is phenomenal, but he has some quality too.

 



MarcusBerglund

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Could've sworn I saw Milner bossing it at LB in a CL semi-final. I must have been dreaming.
Yep, but the difference was that Barca played without recognised wingers against us. And when Valvered played Semedo /as a winger and while he is a full back, but a player with great speed/ Milner struggled for several minutes and Klopp answered by playing Gomez. on the left.
If you think that Milner won't struggle against typical wingers next season, you'd beter replay the moment when Zaha passed him as there is no one there.
 

ILLOK

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Yep, but the difference was that Barca played without recognised wingers against us. And when Valvered played Semedo /as a winger and while he is a full back, but a player with great speed/ Milner struggled for several minutes and Klopp answered by playing Gomez. on the left.
If you think that Milner won't struggle against typical wingers next season, you'd beter replay the moment when Zaha passed him as there is no one there.
If you think the 'typical' winger is as good as Zaha at running with the ball, you should replay some of Zaha's matches.

Milner has played at fullback 50 odd times for us and has rarely let us down.
 

Nikola

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Back to the actual topic at hand, if I was picking a winger from the league to play second fiddle I'd probably look no further than Anderson. His workrate is phenomenal, but he has some quality too.

Between Zaha and Anderson, I'd definitely go for Anderson (but I don't think that a "playmaking" winger is what Klopp needs at the moment). I liked him at Lazio, too, and I did think he'd be playing for a much stronger side at this point of his career. Probably has only himself to blame, though, I'm not sure if he had any off-the-pitch issues while at Lazio but he didn't quite apply himself on it. Pellegrini changed that in the second half of last season, Anderson's still a bit selfish at times but he's slowly taken on that "one brilliant attacking player that West Ham have got" mantle. That said, between Fornals and Haller arriving, I doubt he'll be the only good attacker they have.
 

redbj

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Scientifically, sure. To all intents and purposes, he is not.

These pre-season sessions will be more taxing on the body than whatever goes on during the season. You're simply far more likely to pick up a virus during the winter. It's that simple.

Strenuous exercise will increase that risk, but there is no way around that for professional footballers. Klopp gave these players plenty of rest in the january and they were still picking up viruses. They did not pick up viruses due to an overly high workload, in fact IIRC a lot of these viruses were picked up in the breaks between matches.
Yeah I think a few came back from Dubai with a virus.

Someone even tried to put two and two together and blame the citeh owners!
 

redfanman

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Yeah I think a few came back from Dubai with a virus.

Someone even tried to put two and two together and blame the citeh owners!
At least 3 or 4 of the players had it. Milner, Gini, VVD and Bobby.