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Who would you buy?

Nikola

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Basically chaps, FSG are maximising Klopp's time here for financial return, not trophy return. In three years time, when he leaves, as he will, we'll have won far less than we could have if we'd seen that £50m a year or so that FSG are extracting go into the net spend.

If people are happy for FSG to smile at them whilst picking their pocket, if not pissing in it, then that's their right.

Personally I feel very disappointed that we have been so inactive this summer, and it has taken away some of the joy I felt on June 1st.

Why should I invest so much emotion in something that is being used to feather the nest of already rich people.

I'd never want a City type owner or arrangement, but I can see why their fans are so willing to overlook, if they indeed understand, their owner's shortcomings.
Would you care to explain the bolded part, please? What money are you exactly referring to?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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We had agreed a fee with Leverkusen for Brandt in the March/April but Brandt didn't want to move (anywhere). Can't remember if there was anyone else we went for before signing Salah. I think we will go for alternatives providing those alternatives also offer what we want from that position. It's not a case of Player A or nobody but it is a case of not going for a player we're not totally convinced can offer us what we want simply because he's available and we're looking to recruit in his position.
I think it's a case of;

1st; We establish we need a set of characteristics that created perfect match for a need at a particular position or set of positions.

2nd; Recruitment team provide Klopp with the list of the available players they believe will meet those needs.

3rd; Klopp picks who he wants and the team do their best to get that guy.

4th; If that guy can be bought great, if he is unavailable now but might be in 6 or 12 months we will look to lock him down (Keita style) but either way will wait and use what we have in the meantime (Milner at LB).

5th; Once the picked player is definitely not coming (sometimes straight away sometimes the following summer) we will move to alternatives on the list that Klopp may not have been as sure of but will listen to his team (like with Salah and Robertson).

My issue is I think there is an urgency this year and we shouldn't be looking to wait till next summer. And yes you're right Brandt (and Draxler?) were the one/ones I was thinking of.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Neither of those are remotely true at Liverpool though.

1) He has turned us into a powerhouse - We won the CL for the 6th time, we are the most feared team in Europe, we are causing Pep sleepless nights.

2) We've sold no player Klopp has wanted to keep, in fact we've invested vast amounts retaining the worldclass team Klopp/Edwards have built - Learning from the mistakes of Dortmund.
We aren't a powerhouse yet. We need to establish ourselves at the top of the premier league as 1st or 2nd for a few seasons back to back not just finish in the top 2 once. We need to start consistently adding silverware nearly every season. We haven't actually won much over the last decade. To be a powerhouse in the top echelon like United used to be, City are becoming (lack of history holds them back), Chelsea flirted with for awhile (never quite got there) and Barca/Real and possibly Juve and/or Bayern are required more than just a good season or two. You've got to be a side that consistently competes for and wins the biggest honours and has a status about it (what City still lack and what held Chelsea back). We can have the status because of our standing and history and we behaved like a powerhouse last season but we've got to keep doing it. A 3rd or 4th place finish next year and no silverware will have everyone thinking this was a false dawn.
 

Flobs

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I think the choice is that the club maintain control of the wage bill by heavily incentivising success. So to get on the very top wage bracket, a player has to demonstrate he can earn that. You don’t see LFC banging a player straight on 250k a week, but they will provide a clear pathway for that player to prove they should be earning that.

In addition to this the club have a big bonus and reward structure, which lifts a player’s salary in response to on the field success - so there will be huge bonuses for winning trophies and bringing the club success. (Can’t remember where I got this, might be Reddy)

Where is the Champion’s League money, John?

It’s in the pocket of Van Dijk, Salah, Hendo, Mane, Bobby et al. It is basically how we provide these players with a competitive salary and keep them happy, while also incentiving their performance, and being fiscally responsible.

I think it’s fucking genius, actually.
Yes but some players got hefty basic wage increases after just 12 to 18 months at the club (which flies in the face oçf the incentive doctrine).
Then when/if we are succesful how does this affect the finances?
Where is this 100 million profit (kopstar mentionned) going, how is it being used?
At the end of the day it all has to be balanced and if your wage bill suddenly increases that increase has to be covered somewhere (particularly if the club wants 100 million plus profits every year (which will probably be even greater once the main stand has been paid off :-) )
Btw with incentive orientated wages it must be damn frustrating sitting on the bench ;-)
 

Iluvatar

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We aren't a powerhouse yet. We need to establish ourselves at the top of the premier league as 1st or 2nd for a few seasons back to back not just finish in the top 2 once. We need to start consistently adding silverware nearly every season. We haven't actually won much over the last decade. To be a powerhouse in the top echelon like United used to be, City are becoming (lack of history holds them back), Chelsea flirted with for awhile (never quite got there) and Barca/Real and possibly Juve and/or Bayern are required more than just a good season or two. You've got to be a side that consistently competes for and wins the biggest honours and has a status about it (what City still lack and what held Chelsea back). We can have the status because of our standing and history and we behaved like a powerhouse last season but we've got to keep doing it. A 3rd or 4th place finish next year and no silverware will have everyone thinking this was a false dawn.
Well then I'll leave it there and we can agree to disagree, I think we are a powerhouse. I think Klopp has built us into one of the feared teams in all of Europe, nothing done this summer has changed that, the fact we have retained the same team only strengthens in my eyes.

This is no false dawn.. It's a golden sky.
 

Mascot88

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Look none of us can know exactly why nobody is coming in so far this summer. Klopp and the more reliable journalists have spoken about us looking to try and get business done but it's not happening. The theory that most fits the available evidence is that we have our targets and we are struggling to bring them in this summer so will patiently wait for next summer and cope without instead of going for alternatives. It fits what we know about Klopp and how he operates. To use LB as an example we tried for Chilwell and when we couldn't get him we "made do" with Milner for a season. When Chilwell still wasnt available we brought in Robertson as an alternative. I can't remember off the top of my head who it was we were unable to land that led us to Salah but we had definitely been trying to land a "Klopp pick" and yet again (like with Chilwell v Robertson) when the original target couldn't get delivered Klopp trusted in his recruitment team to provide an alternative and we got Salah. It's a great set up we have and whether they are Klopp picks or committee picks the working relationship and Klopp all work it brilliant. I want that to happen again this window. I know we are probably waiting for someone special next year but I dont think, in this circumstance, that it's worth the risk. I'd like to see what alternatives the recruitment team give Klopp as Klopps target doesn't seem to be coming this summer and I dont think we can cope without. This isn't like how we would end up with Pennant in the past this is a proven working system that provides useful solutions. Klopp is a perfectionist and in many ways that is great, but I feel the urgency of the situation we are in and he is a laid back dude. Hes had a great career and is an amazing manager but he hasn't yet established a good team into a powerhouse, he came close at Dortmund but kept having his best players stolen and they dropped off just as they had the opportunity. I believe we are taking a risk by not forcing the issue. Something amazing is there for the taking and the opportunity will not come around very often. I'd say it's not come to us to get to this top echelon of clubs since the Premier League started. If we keep calm and patient it might actually pass us by and be gone. We may still achieve something special this season but we aren't putting all the odds in our favour that are within our power to influence. I'm worried we haven't done enough.
Jeez man. Paragraphs?

So even though Klopp has a demonstrable track record for trusting his recruitment team to find him the right players, for some reason, this season and this season alone, he is digging his heels in, to get players he personally has identified and is refusing to accept their recommendations?

That makes absolutely no sense. Sorry.

The theory that actually fits the evidence is that there is a range of issues at play

- the elevated position of the club and the performance of the players makes recruitment a much harder prospect. These issues have been debated endlessly, but signing a back up left back/forward is much harder than we acknowledge, and good players want to know there is at least a pathway to getting into the first team.

- the market has gone mental, and we are not going to spend £60m plus, to get in a player who wouldn’t even be a starter. Klopp has said they were looking in the £20m and this reflects the idea that our first 16-18 lads are set, and we are just looking to add a bit of cover here and there.

- we have a clutch of really promising young players and we need to get them game time.

- there are simply no players available that meet the needs we have, are available for purchase and justify the outlay the current market would demand.

To me, that’s about the sum of it.
 

Mascot88

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Yes but some players got hefty basic wage increases after just 12 to 18 months at the club (which flies in the face oçf the incentive doctrine).
I don’t think it does. I just think the club pays commensurate with what players have proved they can do in our structure.

At the end of the day it all has to be balanced and if your wage bill suddenly increases that increase has to be covered somewhere
I think the idea would be that wages increase in response to success on the pitch, then then should translate to a greater income - directly in the form of prize money and indirectly through marketing.
 

Kopstar

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Yes but some players got hefty basic wage increases after just 12 to 18 months at the club (which flies in the face oçf the incentive doctrine).
Then when/if we are succesful how does this affect the finances?
Where is this 100 million profit (kopstar mentionned) going, how is it being used?
At the end of the day it all has to be balanced and if your wage bill suddenly increases that increase has to be covered somewhere (particularly if the club wants 100 million plus profits every year (which will probably be even greater once the main stand has been paid off )
Btw with incentive orientated wages it must be damn frustrating sitting on the bench
I imagine a large part of the £100m profit went towards the £170m or so we spent on players last summer.
 

Flobs

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I don’t think it does. I just think the club pays commensurate with what players have proved they can do in our structure.



I think the idea would be that wages increase in response to success on the pitch, then then should translate to a greater income - directly in the form of prize money and indirectly through marketing.
Yes! I not really here to question the club finances though I do find it a bit off putting how so many take it all for granted as a good thing. When you lose players like Coutinho and Sturridge and the wage bill rises dramatically surely some questions should be asked. Particularly as the next window the amount of movement seen is next to nothing.
I'm certainly not looking for an arguement over something I think very few of us look into in detail. Some quite glib replays to my concerns though which is also a bit worrying. Above all as I was just pointing out an slight overlook in sopmeone elses post to which he gave an explaination even if it wasn't that convincing.
I certainly am not an FSG or Klopp out type supporter. Then again I never going to follow them blindly (that's reserved for LFC) :-)
Just looking at the finances without any objective on the squad which is in general strong.
 

Kopstar

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So it wasn't profit?
You realise it's different financial years right? Or perhaps you don't.

The profit of just over £100m was for the 17/18 season (year end 31 May 2018). The spending on players last summer is for the 18/19 season (year end 31 May 2019).
 

KillerBeeLFC

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Whilst City treat winning the Community Shield like winning a major trophy, our club treats every competition except the CL and PL with indifference.
So we treated the game with "indifference" but still drew on the day with 1 of our main attackers resting? Bodes well for the season ahead ha
The Community Shield means jack shit really mate. I cant remember who won it any year off the top of my head and it is never mentioned as an honour when talking about trophies accumulated by the end of the season. Its a glorified friendly, for charity. You can use 6 subs for christs sake ha
 

Mascot88

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Yes! I not really here to question the club finances though I do find it a bit off putting how so many take it all for granted as a good thing. When you lose players like Coutinho and Sturridge and the wage bill rises dramatically surely some questions should be asked. Particularly as the next window the amount of movement seen is next to nothing.
I'm certainly not looking for an arguement over something I think very few of us look into in detail. Some quite glib replays to my concerns though which is also a bit worrying. Above all as I was just pointing out an slight overlook in sopmeone elses post to which he gave an explaination even if it wasn't that convincing.
I certainly am not an FSG or Klopp out type supporter. Then again I never going to follow them blindly (that's reserved for LFC)
Just looking at the finances without any objective on the squad which is in general strong.
Sturridge only left this summer, so his wages would still be on last year’s accounts. And on last year’s accounts the wages of Coutinho would be removed, but you then have to add Van Dijk, Alisson, Shaqiri and Fabinho.
 

Flobs

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You realise it's different financial years right? Or perhaps you don't.

The profit of just over £100m was for the 17/18 season (year end 31 May 2018). The spending on players last summer is for the 18/19 season (year end 31 May 2019).
Came to my mind after, also was that 'club' profit or net profit from transfers?
To be honest I was just having a bit of fun with you then realised that isn't possible. :-)
 

Flobs

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Sturridge only left this summer, so his wages would still be on last year’s accounts. And on last year’s accounts the wages of Coutinho would be removed, but you then have to add Van Dijk, Alisson, Shaqiri and Fabinho.
VVD and Alisson would make a dent. ;-)
(Edit: Could we be seeing a book balancing exercise?)
 

Mascot88

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For being trigger happy with the enter button?
Maybe you shouldn’t be replying to Kopstar?
You don’t get on, there is a history of you winding each other up, and this does look a lot like baiting.
 

Flobs

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Maybe you shouldn’t be replying to Kopstar?
You don’t get on, there is a history of you winding each other up, and this does look a lot like baiting.
I like Kopstar, he posts some very good stuff. It's just in the Brexit thread where tension rise. And yes I do tend and try not to reply to him when I feel it's going too far. I just have lapses occasionally. I just couldn't resist that time then realised my error after and compounded it with a little dig which was unnecessary. :-(
 

Prolix

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Yes but some players got hefty basic wage increases after just 12 to 18 months at the club[...]
Which players? When? What wages were they brought in on? What wages would they have gotten from a competitor for the role they played?

Something more concrete than "it's somewhere in the player threads :-) ", please.
(which flies in the face oçf the incentive doctrine).
If the player/team were successful, isn't that precisely part of incentivising performance? Who said it all has to be in contractual clauses?
 

Flobs

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Which players? When? What wages were they brought in on? What wages would they have gotten from a competitor for the role they played?

Something more concrete than "it's somewhere in the player threads ", please.

If the player/team were successful, isn't that precisely part of incentivising performance? Who said it all has to be in contractual clauses?
VVD and Salah, both on hefty wages to start with!

Yes!
However the players didn't just have their incentives increased they had their basic wages increased as well after a very short time at the club.
 

scouseheadross

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I like Kopstar, he posts some very good stuff. It's just in the Brexit thread where tension rise. And yes I do tend and try not to reply to him when I feel it's going too far. I just have lapses occasionally. I just couldn't resist that time then realised my error after and compounded it with a little dig which was unnecessary.
Fortunately the naughty bench isn't totally full yet. Welcome. Just don't speak to me.
 

Kopstar

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The examples you're going with are the widely-accepted Best Defender in the World™ and a forward who in his first season set a Premier League goalscoring record?!
Flobs is also pre-empting VvD's wage increase, it hasn't yet officially been confirmed.

He's certainly earned it though.
 



Flobs

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The examples you're going with are the widely-accepted Best Defender in the World™ and a forward who in his first season set a Premier League goalscoring record?!
Yes, so what?
They fall into the description I gave!
 

Flobs

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Flobs is also pre-empting VvD's wage increase, it hasn't yet officially been confirmed.

He's certainly earned it though.
Damn it jumping the gun again. :Firmino:
Perhaps he's earned it after 18 months then again I think he was on a good wage to begin with and his incentives on his 'previous contract can't be bad either (as the system was already in place).:-)
 

fspencer

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Damn it jumping the gun again.
Perhaps he's earned it after 18 months then again I think he was on a good wage to begin with and his incentives on his 'previous contract can't be bad either (as the system was already in place).
so who would you buy then @Flobs ?

A private investigator to get your the details on the contracts ? or an accountant to explain the accounts ?
 

Flobs

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so who would you buy then @Flobs ?

A private investigator to get your the details on the contracts ? or an accountant to explain the accounts ?
I'll just stick with generalities, I probably wouldn't understand what either of those said to me anyway. Not unless they know Flobs law. :-)
I'm sure the club has a number of these chappies and that those above them understand a lot more than I do so I think we will be ok. I just don't know why my fancy for a new signing isn't being fulfilled. :-(
 
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lfc.eddie

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I think the choice is that the club maintain control of the wage bill by heavily incentivising success. So to get on the very top wage bracket, a player has to demonstrate he can earn that. You don’t see LFC banging a player straight on 250k a week, but they will provide a clear pathway for that player to prove they should be earning that.

In addition to this the club have a big bonus and reward structure, which lifts a player’s salary in response to on the field success - so there will be huge bonuses for winning trophies and bringing the club success. (Can’t remember where I got this, might be Reddy)
That's not the same thing? How would one booked in their financial report if it isn't the same? One classify as bonus, the other as commission? A bit confused.