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Who would you buy?



William Clarke

REDSHIRT ~ I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
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Although we have started off well, in fact brilliantly, I still believe we need cover for Robbo. It doesn't have to be a big name just an up and coming player with first team experience for his club. He would have to be prepared to sit on the bench for long periods, so a confirmed Liverpool supporter with loyalties to our club would be much preferred. Does anyone know who would fit the bill?
 

Mascot88

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We can praise Matip's performance without making exaggerated claims like this. He has been very good thus far. He's also not the second best CB in the world.
Familiarity breeds contempt. If we’d bought Matip for £50m this summer, we’d be drooling over him and think Centre Back was covered.
 

Prolix

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Nope Klopp has accomplished his goals in Dortmund and now here. So in terms of trend, pattern and historical data used to show his worth and would not even blink to think he will be able to do the same under Ian Ayre. It’s not unfair, it’s using past achievements to draw that conclusion.

Let me put it this way, who worries you more if he leaves? Klopp or King Edwards? I know what my answer is going to be. For what it is worth, I am giving more credit to the manager less so to the others. They get it but they aren’t the ultimate factor to me. Not binary choice, all get credit on different percentage.
Klopp's whole "thing" was that he was lucky enough to work with a very highly respected management team at Dortmund. Yes, they struggled with his replacements for a while before Favre, but they remain highly thought of. It takes all elements working together. Klopp would be the first to say that he wouldn't be the manager he is without all of the people he has been able to work with for his whole career. Edwards and his team struggled with Rodgers. Klopp would struggle at United.

You say it's just about "percentages", but you have priors for pouring cold water on any praise of Michael Edwards ("King Edwards", you say sarcastically). That isn't about giving credit where credit is due; you just have a weird bone to pick.

To be clear: I think Klopp is an absolutely phenomenal manager, in pretty much every aspect of the job. But at the end of the day, to answer your question, the structure in place above the manager will always be more important to get right long-term. These are the people who will, inevitably, have to find the successor to Klopp someday. United are living proof of what happens when you put all your eggs into the legacy of one manager.
 



Prolix

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At least we are no longer bitching about whether the club are going well or not.

Now we are just bitching over who gets how much credit for it.
We are "bitching" about one person's derisory, pathological need to be contrarian at every possible opportunity. It's like he's summoned by dark magic whenever the word E*wards appears in a post.
 

lfc.eddie

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Klopp's whole "thing" was that he was lucky enough to work with a very highly respected management team at Dortmund. Yes, they struggled with his replacements for a while before Favre, but they remain highly thought of. It takes all elements working together. Klopp would be the first to say that he wouldn't be the manager he is without all of the people he has been able to work with for his whole career. Edwards and his team struggled with Rodgers. Klopp would struggle at United.

You say it's just about "percentages", but you have priors for pouring cold water on any praise of Michael Edwards ("King Edwards", you say sarcastically). That isn't about giving credit where credit is due; you just have a weird bone to pick.
I think Klopp will do as well with us as he would with United, or Chelsea. That's how good he is. The structure we have today isn't something that had just been implemented by the club when Klopp arrived, it's been around. Today it comes to fruition because the man himself developed the players from average to someone special. That is why I gave him more credit. I have no bone to pick with Michael Edwards, like I never have any bones to pick with Lucas back then, which I hope you get it.
 

lfc.eddie

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This is just blatant trolling.
Nope, I am not trolling you. I am explaining to you that I do really have no problems with Edwards, just the people who hype him up too much I feel needs to wait and see. Like how I felt Lucas had been too hyped up, and at one point Henderson too and so on. Why the need to label people? Besides, you picked my post up to comment, I didn't go around chasing you down. So let's get one thing clear here, please. I put my point across and you labelled me something I am not in the previous post, so I clarify. And you call me a troll? Damn....
 

Cologne-Liverpool

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The better the people the better, for everyone involved. 'Better' includes being able to co-operate and work with other people, so that everyone can do their best work. We all know the co-worker who's somewhat brilliant in his/her field, but unable to co-operate or the boss who can't take advice/criticism or won't delegate at the right moments. I think Klopp's character is perfect to give other able, talented people some room to shine and help create a good working environment.
 



Prolix

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Besides, you picked my post up to comment, I didn't go around chasing you down.
Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the concept of a discussion forum...

Re: Lucas, you're intentionally bringing up past conflicts that we've had-- completely off topic-- to try and bait a reaction. Congratulations, I fell for it again.

Regarding the conversation at hand: what would you say is the 'proper' amount of credit to give Edwards? Because it seems to me like every time someone talks about him you show up and start lecturing about how he doesn't deserve it.
 

lfc.eddie

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Re: Lucas, you're intentionally bringing up past conflicts that we've had-- completely off topic-- to try and bait a reaction. Congratulations, I fell for it again.
Honestly I did not.... but if you think I do, can't stop you for labeling me whatever you want. I was just using it as an example of fans overhyping someone at times, which does not mean I don't like the player or whoever they hyped. But hey, you seemed to like to find ways to put all sorts of accusation on me. Ever since we've interacted years back.
 

SithBaare

From Doubters to Believers
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After we win the league this year I think the sting in the tail might be Salah deciding to try his hand in Spain. Got nothing to base it on, other than a hunch. If that happens I could see us going big on Sancho as a direct replacement. We might even add Havertz to the attacking midfield as we’ve been saving our pennies.
Will not be fussed overly about losing Salah. Just hands off Bobby and mane.
 

Prolix

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With Duncan and Kent departing, Liverpool will have made almost 50 million pounds profit on transfer dealings this summer, various bonuses and wages not included. Overall net spending in Klopp's era is down to some 70 million pounds if I'm not mistaken. That's some great work from him and Edwards, even if the cloud of doubt over not strengthening the squad by getting in a new senior or two is still present. I wish they would run my countries.
The impressive thing is how much money has come from bit-part players who were patently not at Liverpool's level, or who would have a hard time fulfilling their career here, rather than from players being sold out from under the manager.

Really the only meaningful asset to leave since Klopp has arrived was Coutinho, a situation which was a.) forced upon us, and b.) converted into way more playing value than we lost.

The net spend is incredibly deceptive. Klopp really has not had a shoestring budget to work on; the staff above him has just been masterful in maximising the value of departing assets. Getting so much for Ings was impressive. Getting almost as much for Solanke is next-level.

Also beneficial is how assiduously the members of the recruitment setup keep out of the limelight. There was that one (fantastic) article in the NYT, but they are quite content to let Klopp be the face of Liverpool. (y)
 

Nikola

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The impressive thing is how much money has come from bit-part players who were patently not at Liverpool's level, or who would have a hard time fulfilling their career here, rather than from players being sold out from under the manager.

Really the only meaningful asset to leave since Klopp has arrived was Coutinho, a situation which was a.) forced upon us, and b.) converted into way more playing value than we lost.

The net spend is incredibly deceptive. Klopp really has not had a shoestring budget to work on; the staff above him has just been masterful in maximising the value of departing assets. Getting so much for Ings was impressive. Getting almost as much for Solanke is next-level.

Also beneficial is how assiduously the members of the recruitment setup keep out of the limelight. There was that one (fantastic) article in the NYT, but they are quite content to let Klopp be the face of Liverpool.
And rightly so, I think the recruitment guys want to be as anonymous as possible for business' sake.

Their single biggest transfer success for me, at least when it comes to sales, is getting rid of Benteke for roughly what he cost Liverpool. I sometimes watch him and shudder, how the hell did this guy line up for Liverpool? That he played just a few years after Carroll is no mitigating circumstance in my head... :) And that money was probably reinvested to fund Mane's arrival.

Really, quality work from all parties involved from Liverpool's side. I also think they silently implemented a few tricks that clubs like Chelsea used, namely the improvement in loan system that increases the amount of money club can ask for players. A while back, loan meant we'd never see that player in a Liverpool shirt again, that they tried to sell him but no one wanted to spend money on him. Now, not just that, club are ready for brinkmanship games in order to get what they want, as well as getting a few underrated players (like Ings, Solanke, Stewart) and selling them for massive profit.

Long may this continue, I'm honestly still not used to this. It's like watching Ferguson's Man United with Gill at the helm or Juventus at the top of their game at times - the former comparison won't be popular here but we have to admit it, they were great at conducting business.
 



JibJab

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Familiarity breeds contempt. If we’d bought Matip for £50m this summer, we’d be drooling over him and think Centre Back was covered.
That really doesn't have anything to do with the absurd assessment that he's the second best CB in world football.

But even in following your tangent, I don't agree with your conclusion. It smacks of recency bias. Some of you are forgetting what Joel Matip looked like before we signed Virgil. He was an injury-prone, inconsistent CB who could not be relied upon to head a central defense. Joel Matip is only as good as the partner next to him....and that's if he remains healthy.

Great CBs thrive irrespective of who they partner with. That's what separates studs like VVD and Koulibaly from players like Matip. Anyone who has watched Koulibaly play knows that he's a colossus back there...one of the reasons why Liverpool only scored once over two legs against Napoli last year (with the one goal coming from some greatness from Salah to beat KK). And he clearly runs that defense; he doesn't have the best defender in the world covering behind him.

Anyway, I don't think we're going to buy Koulibaly, despite the fact that he was on our short list with VVD when we decided to buy a CB two summers ago. I do think it's unquestionably true that we'd be even better back there with Koulibaly, though.
 

roydom

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That really doesn't have anything to do with the absurd assessment that he's the second best CB in world football.

But even in following your tangent, I don't agree with your conclusion. It smacks of recency bias. Some of you are forgetting what Joel Matip looked like before we signed Virgil. He was an injury-prone, inconsistent CB who could not be relied upon to head a central defense. Joel Matip is only as good as the partner next to him....and that's if he remains healthy.

Great CBs thrive irrespective of who they partner with. That's what separates studs like VVD and Koulibaly from players like Matip. Anyone who has watched Koulibaly play knows that he's a colossus back there...one of the reasons why Liverpool only scored once over two legs against Napoli last year (with the one goal coming from some greatness from Salah to beat KK). And he clearly runs that defense; he doesn't have the best defender in the world covering behind him.

Anyway, I don't think we're going to buy Koulibaly, despite the fact that he was on our short list with VVD when we decided to buy a CB two summers ago. I do think it's unquestionably true that we'd be even better back there with Koulibaly, though.
Agree partly with most of what you say, but the reason we only scored one against Napoli was down to poor finishing on our behalf, nothing else.

Koulibaly though is a beast.
 

Mascot88

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But even in following your tangent, I don't agree with your conclusion. It smacks of recency bias. Some of you are forgetting what Joel Matip looked like before we signed Virgil. He was an injury-prone, inconsistent CB who could not be relied upon to head a central defense. Joel Matip is only as good as the partner next to him....and that's if he remains healthy.
I don’t think that’s true. If you read the forum from around the time Matip had the issue with the Cameroon FA, there was much anguish around what we’d do, how we needed him and how we’d cope without him.

He has had spells of being very good, and spells of being inconsistent. His patchy injury record has not help.

But not true to suggest he was shite before Virg came. He had spells of being very good.
 

JibJab

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I don’t think that’s true. If you read the forum from around the time Matip had the issue with the Cameroon FA, there was much anguish around what we’d do, how we needed him and how we’d cope without him.

He has had spells of being very good, and spells of being inconsistent. His patchy injury record has not help.

But not true to suggest he was shite before Virg came. He had spells of being very good.
I didn't suggest he was "shite." I said he was inconsistent...which means that he was good at times, and not good at others. Not sure why that's controversial when you yourself are saying that he had "spells of being very good, and spells of being inconsistent."

And the fact that we were worried about him during his dispute with the Cameroon FA had as much to do with our lack of quality depth at CB as it did with our perception of Matip's quality. We were forced to start Lucas Leiva at CB at one point, IIRC.

And again, that has nothing to do with the original claim that he was the second best CB in world football.
 

Chewbazza

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I didn't suggest he was "shite." I said he was inconsistent...which means that he was good at times, and not good at others. Not sure why that's controversial when you yourself are saying that he had "spells of being very good, and spells of being inconsistent."

And the fact that we were worried about him during his dispute with the Cameroon FA had as much to do with our lack of quality depth at CB as it did with our perception of Matip's quality. We were forced to start Lucas Leiva at CB at one point, IIRC.

And again, that has nothing to do with the original claim that he was the second best CB in world football.
The claim was only for 2019, not in general. There is a huge difference there.

James Milner was the best/2nd best LB in the league in 2018. That doesn't mean he was ever "the best left back in the premier league".
 



Red over the water

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Koulibaly is an excellent defender. Better than Matip, not as good as Van Dijk. If we had the chance to sign him we should not do it, as the improvement would not be worth the outlay.

In a team without Van Dijk, a player like Koulibaly would be well worth having, as you could build a defense around him. (I'm not sure if I'd want Koulibaly over Gomez, mind).

Since we have Van Dijk we are sorted. The options we have to go alongside are very good too. Gomez was brilliant before he got injured. I think he will have a big career as a central defender when he can get back in again. Matip was a revelation last season when he came in for Gomez, and he has done well this season so far too. Hoever is very highly rated and looks like he has got the lot too, though time is very much on his side. And Sepp VDB is highly rated for a youngster too, though he needs to beef up a bit.

Lovren fits in as fourth choice. He has an occasional brain fart moment, but he's a good player when fit.

Koulibaly would be the one to hold it all together... sans Van Dijk. But he's not needed here.
 

Zoran

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Koulibaly is still quality, no doubt about that. But I was surprised that he was our alternative to Virgil however. Stylistically they do have some similarities, but I don't really see them as the exact type of CB.

There's Virgil... and then it's up to the other 3 to fight and earn game time. All 3 have their issues with either style, form or injuries. Matip and Gomez are playing like 25-30 games on average every season, so Lovren doesn't need to panic, he might be called up for action in no time. Gomez is also an option for full back, so if something happens to Trent, it immediately affects our CB situation. We had 53 games last season while going out immediately in both cups. I expect us to go to the last knockout stages in Europe again, so together with other two competitions we played or will be playing, there will be plenty of chances for all of them.

Gomez probably has the highest ceiling, but Matip has continued where he left off last season (and it's the best he's played for us, even if he did show quality initially when he joined, it seems to be like some fans forgot about that when there was this Lovren love in the air).

Last season we managed well. Gomez started off brilliantly, then we had Lovren coming in and the level didn't drop, then we covered ourselves with Fabinho for a short while, then Matip took over and did his thing.

The plus with Matip is that his international career is over for a while now. Might be another reason why we're willing to give him a new deal here. So for me it's about continuing to develop Gomez if he can finally stay fit, sell Lovren next summer when he'll have a year left and then see where we are. Current players and what's out on the market.
 

Mascot88

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I didn't suggest he was "shite." I said he was inconsistent...which means that he was good at times, and not good at others. Not sure why that's controversial when you yourself are saying that he had "spells of being very good, and spells of being inconsistent."

And the fact that we were worried about him during his dispute with the Cameroon FA had as much to do with our lack of quality depth at CB as it did with our perception of Matip's quality. We were forced to start Lucas Leiva at CB at one point, IIRC.

And again, that has nothing to do with the original claim that he was the second best CB in world football.
How about on present form?

I mean, is Virgil Van Dijk not the best Centre Back in the world, because he wasn’t that good at Celtic or Southampton?

On his run from getting back in the team to the present, I’m struggling to think of a better Centre Back.
 



PeachesEnRegalia

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Honestly I did not.... but if you think I do, can't stop you for labeling me whatever you want. I was just using it as an example of fans overhyping someone at times, which does not mean I don't like the player or whoever they hyped. But hey, you seemed to like to find ways to put all sorts of accusation on me. Ever since we've interacted years back.
Gr8 b8, m8. I wud r8 it 8/8.
 

redbj

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We are "bitching" about one person's derisory, pathological need to be contrarian at every possible opportunity. It's like he's summoned by dark magic whenever the word E*wards appears in a post.
Poor innocent Eddie.

Quite why you guys always pick on him I’ll never know.
 

JibJab

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How about on present form?

I mean, is Virgil Van Dijk not the best Centre Back in the world, because he wasn’t that good at Celtic or Southampton?

On his run from getting back in the team to the present, I’m struggling to think of a better Centre Back.
He's absolutely playing very well...but I have to taken his performance in context when evaluating his quality versus other defenders. Joel Matip has the protection of the best defender in world football to clean up his mistakes, take critical defensive assignments, and organize the defense entirely. We have seen Joel Matip prior to Van Dijk's arrival. He wasn't good enough to take on that responsibility, which is why Klopp and Edwards made recruiting a world class central defender a priority heading into the 2017 summer window. Virgil van Dijk was excellent at Southampton and had all of the tools to be great, which is why he was their #1 choice.

But the difference between considering the symbiotic relationship between VVD and Matip right now is that Virgil has excelled consistently for 18 months no matter who he's paired with or which opponent he's playing. He rarely, if ever, makes mistakes. He spent 18 months without a single dribble past him. He was a colossus on set pieces when attacking and defending.

You remove Virgil from this defense, and the center buckles. Matip can't fill his shoes.

You remove Matip, and we still thrive with Gomez or Lovren back there because Virg protects them.

That's the difference between being good and being great. And that's, in part, why I would love to recruit a monster like Koulibaly to Liverpool so that they can not only pair together as this impenetrable wall in front of goal, but also to provide protection in case one of them gets hurt.
 

Mascot88

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He's absolutely playing very well...but I have to taken his performance in context when evaluating his quality versus other defenders. Joel Matip has the protection of the best defender in world football to clean up his mistakes, take critical defensive assignments, and organize the defense entirely.
What mistakes?

As far as I can see Matip has done plenty of mopping up himself.

We have seen Joel Matip prior to Van Dijk's arrival. He wasn't good enough to take on that responsibility, which is why Klopp and Edwards made recruiting a world class central defender a priority heading into the 2017 summer window. Virgil van Dijk was excellent at Southampton and had all of the tools to be great, which is why he was their #1 choice.

But the difference between considering the symbiotic relationship between VVD and Matip right now is that Virgil has excelled consistently for 18 months no matter who he's paired with or which opponent he's playing. He rarely, if ever, makes mistakes. He spent 18 months without a single dribble past him. He was a colossus on set pieces when attacking and defending.

You remove Virgil from this defense, and the center buckles. Matip can't fill his shoes.

You remove Matip, and we still thrive with Gomez or Lovren back there because Virg protects them.

That's the difference between being good and being great. And that's, in part, why I would love to recruit a monster like Koulibaly to Liverpool so that they can not only pair together as this impenetrable wall in front of goal, but also to provide protection in case one of them gets hurt.
Thoughts on Koulibaly.

1. He will realistically be 29 before a transfer can be made.

2. We’d be looking at a Virgil-esque fee.

3. There are areas of greater need in the squad.

4. We have four solid senior CBs and two very highly rated youngsters.

For these reasons I think there is no chance of signing Koulibaly, and it would be a poor use of money to do so.

If we are planning to spend big cash it will be further up the pitch.