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Winning Mentality

liveforthereds

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Thought that it would be good to start a new thread about the Winning Metality as it seems to be derailing another thread.

What is it and how do we go about it ? This is what I posted in the Rodgers thread on this.

Yes the League is what matters and it also should matter winning the Cups no matter which one But and this is a big BUT the owners our not intrested in any of that all's they want is 4th place as that is what get's the club untold richies from the Champions League. Playing in the Champions League is more important and for me when setting that type of goal will not help to get the winning mentality. Arsenal have played in the Champions League for many years now and just how long is it since they won a Cup of a Title!! also it does not matter how good you play in a game if you don't win you won't be in the fight for the Title or anything else, It would not bother me if we played crap in ever game and won 1-0, winning is everything. Man U have built Titles on the back of playing crap and scraping 1-0 wins, we did it in the 70's and 80's. The manager has to expect his players to give 100% every time the take to the field and if they don't then they should be dropped. Shanks did it, so did Sir Bob and look at what they and their teams achived, other managers in the past like Busby achived things by demanding the 100% from his players. Fergie has been doing it for the last 20 years and players know if they don't give him 100% they will get dropped and in some case's booted out of the club. Brendan has a lot to learn and one thing is this I think he can learn but can the owners also learn that to win you have to demand 100%.
 

AussieLad

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Said it god knows how many times in the past, and will no doubt say it as many times in the future, The Champions League MUST be reverted to being open for the champions of each country only. Rewarding teams finishing 2-4th with spots in a competition that is suppossed to be for the champions is a joke and is only done due to Uefa not having the balls to stand up to the big clubs and to the sponsors
 

liveforthereds

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Compleatly agree, they should bring back the Cup Winner Cup and revert the leagues back to knockout compertions. If they want to have a Champions league type format then they should do away with International football and play this type of tornament in the Summer months.
 

DeathOrGlory

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In my opinion, there is one fundamental objective needed to be achieved in order to become consistent and challenge for titles.

It's the ability that the scum have mastered, the ability to lose a cup game mid week, then follow it up with a win away, at say, West Ham.

Every time they lost a cup game last season, whether it be in the Champs League, the League Cup etc they followed up each loss and exit with a win. That is a fantastic achievement.
 

costared

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Not being picky but can a Mod would fix this thread title and put the N in mentality please ?
 

T.C.B

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To me this current side have a very brittle feeling about them. I find it hard to be confident of a win against any side especially at home. Compare this to say Houlliers side that won the trebble. I always felt they were mentally tough and hard to beat. They had winners in the side though like Marcus Babbel for example. Its very hard for our team to have this mentality when its full of rookies and kids. Looking back Houllier made some great signings like Didi Hamann, Gary Mac as well as Babbel, Hyppia and Henchoz. All experienced, mentally tough players.
Buying kids is great and necessary but you need a spine of strong experienced pros with them. We have Jamie and Stevie on the wain. Apart from Luis and maybe Agger where is this mental toughness and experience?
It could also be said that in Downing Henderson and Carroll we bought three of the most mentally fragile players possible. Could explain why they havent worked out.
I work in education and we use a mentor system to help new kids settle in. It works. Who are the leaders here?
I'll bet Brendan knows this also. If you keep buying kids you end up with a team of them.
 

Red_IndianLFC

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Towards the end of last season, there was an alarming lack of mental strength in the side. There was no one to grab the game by the scruff of neck and lead others by example.

Yet to see a winning mentality being showed by the team, but i guess it will take time. Some consistency and a winning run is what we need the most at this moment, i would imagine.
 

Doggie

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It's certainly the difference for United and to some extent, Arsenal.

United don't seem to have a squad that is particularly strong, but always manage to punch above their weight. In fact this season, they have gone behind in almost all their games - it's like they need the pressure to get going.

I'll wager that when old bacon face retires they will lose that edge.

Somehow Arsenal found it last season too - they had that horrific start, yet they began to grind out one nil wins and before long they were flying.

As for us - we won the Carling Cup and it felt like we had that mentality and were going to kick on and get fourth, but our season imploded for reasons I simply can't put my finger on.

For me therefore, it's down to leadership.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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There are two sides to a winning mentality, fight and confidence.

Fight is something a player is born with. Classic example is Roy Keane, but in our team Agger, Carragher or Suarez are those who best embody it. Players that give 100% right to the very end, even if the game looks lost. People scoff and British blood and guts but thats it at its essence. A determination to succeed, a real hatred of losing.

The other aspect is confidence, which as a team can come and go. Look at WBA and Newcastle as examples. If you have sustained success like United, the trophies you win cement your confidence. That self belief of having a trophy makes you stronger and less likely to lose that confidence, which can occur for other teams after losing a handful of games.

At the moment we are missing a midfielder in our team with real fight. Our confidence is also shot from a lack of consistancy (in team selection) and poor results
 

OhYaBeauty

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My take: it comes down to team results, first and foremost, and then to a lesser extent player and manager motivation with a little bit of supporter expectations thrown in at the end.

The most important thing there is results. If you set up a culture where your team is expected to win each game, the players go into the game expecting a win, and nothing else. You see it at United, where they score so many late winners. Why? Because every player on the team goes into each game like the other team owes them three points. When there's a scoreless draw in the 80th minute, Liverpool and United treat the game very differently. United attack relentlessly, with the mentality "three points or bust" while Liverpool sometimes sit back and enjoy the draw, sometimes attack, and sometimes close up shop. We're just more insecure, and because of it, we don't attack and get the three points that should be ours.

How did United get their "winning mentality?" In my opinion, the largest part comes from their recent history of winning. In order to get on their level, we have to start winning. In that respect, its difficult to get that winning mentality, but once you have it, its a self-sustaining cycle keeping you at the top.

What we can do, in my opinion, is change our players' and coaches' motivation. If the players and Rodgers were to up their motivation somehow, results would follow.
 

Never Say Never

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There are two sides to a winning mentality, fight and confidence.

Fight is something a player is born with. Classic example is Roy Keane, but in our team Agger, Carragher or Suarez are those who best embody it. Players that give 100% right to the very end, even if the game looks lost. People scoff and British blood and guts but thats it at its essence. A determination to succeed, a real hatred of losing.

The other aspect is confidence, which as a team can come and go. Look at WBA and Newcastle as examples. If you have sustained success like United, the trophies you win cement your confidence. That self belief of having a trophy makes you stronger and less likely to lose that confidence, which can occur for other teams after losing a handful of games.

At the moment we are missing a midfielder in our team with real fight. Our confidence is also shot from a lack of consistancy (in team selection) and poor results
I agree with your first point much more than your second.

To me it comes down to a pure hatred and disgust of losing, plain and simple. Winners generate their own confidence because in their head they always believe they'll come out on top. There's two different types, your Roger Federer's and your Muhammad Ali's. One is quiet confident and intense, but still maintain that undeniable self belief. Examples would be Messi, Suarez, Walter Payton, Lance Armstrong, King Kenny and debatably Michael Jordan. Then you've got your Ali's. People like Ronaldo, Tyson, Deion Sanders, Bobby Knight, Donald Trump etc. They're great, they'll tell you they're great and frankly, they are. But the one thing they both have in common is an unshakable belief in themselves. It could be the third minute of stoppage time and be down 3 goals and they still think they could win. Part of this also comes by not making excuses. Failure is disgusting to these guys and they hate themselves until they win. It's very intensely personal for them. They look in the mirror and don't point to anyone else.

Conversely, you've got your Andy Murray's. Let me make this clear - I love Andy Murray. He's Scottish, kinda goody looking like me, and seems to be a down to earth genuine guy. What's not to love? And yeah he got his grand slam, but he's just not a winner. He's such a confidence player he can't shake it when things are looking down. Like you said, you've either got it or you don't. You can win and not be a winner. Jordan Henderson may possibly fall into this category.

Here in the US, if you don't win, you're nothing. You're forgotten. We don't have the same respect for history that you do. We just don't tolerate losers, I think that's part of the logic behind the draft system, if teams can't stay competitive there's no reason to exist. Fans don't show up any more. Teams aren't ingrained in culture, they exist purely for entertainment. I thought John Henry was a winner, but I'm starting to have doubts.

Truly from top to bottom, I think we lack winners in this club like the ones I described. The club executives, manager, and many of the players in my eyes don't exude the qualities I was hoping for. Hell you don't even have to be good to be a winner. Tim Tebow sucks, but it's hard to deny he got the job done when asked to.

Edit: add Roman Abramovich to that list of winners.
 

LFCLV

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Winning mentality??? Only three players in our squad have it. Agger Lucas and Luis. They give everything whene they wear this shirt. Others simply dont have it. Win- good, draw- oh that's ok, loss- we deserved more frome the game :D pathetic attitude. I fear that Brendan will do the same mistake that Kenny did by being too soft with lads. Hairdryer treatment sometimes needs to me done.
 

brush85

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^So you're saying that Skrtel doesnt give everything? That Johnson and Sterling arent giving everything? Heck, Downing and Enrique are poor but they give eveything.

Its so easy to just say players arent trying hard enough when things arent going well. When in actuality, if they werent trying hard enough we'd be getting battered in games but we are losing games by a single goal or drawing games. Which means we are competing, we just arent good enough to make an impact going forward.What we need are better players and better players lead you to having a winning mentality. No matter how much confidence you have at the start, when reality sets in, you cant kid yourselves into thinking you are better than what you are.
 

LFCLV

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^So you're saying that Skrtel doesnt give everything? That Johnson and Sterling arent giving everything? Heck, Downing and Enrique are poor but they give eveything.

Its so easy to just say players arent trying hard enough when things arent going well. When in actuality, if they werent trying hard enough we'd be getting battered in games but we are losing games by a single goal or drawing games. Which means we are competing, we just arent good enough to make an impact going forward.What we need are better players and better players lead you to having a winning mentality. No matter how much confidence you have at the start, when reality sets in, you cant kid yourselves into thinking you are better than what you are.
Yes sometimes others just let their heads down and dont give their best when things are not going their way. It is normal. Maybe those three I mentioned are mentaly strong because they have gone through some tough times as footballers. Lucas- booing in early days and now long term injury. Agger's carrer has been plagued by injuries. I hope that I don't have to mention what Luis has been through.
 

brush85

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I've never seen Skrtel's head go down or Johnson's. Sterling is 17 and yeah, he wasnt great today but he was still work hard and trying to make something happen.

Ultimately, we have 2 guys in our team that have a history of scoring goals...one of them is well past his best and the other is Suarez.
Everyone else is probably under 10 goals for their careers in the top flight. So, yeah, we can bemoan our issues with confidence and winning mentality. But if you have a team were 9 of the 10 outfield players are highly unlikely to score a goal...what do we expect to happen after every game?
 

RichLFC

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Been replaced with an excuse ridden jam tomorrow mentality. It's like waiting for Godot here now

Club hasn't coped well with adversity. May have been other teams out there which could have ridden the last few years out better than we have done, but there is a weakness in the mindset and a difficulty in acknowledging responsibility and mistakes

Perhaps a little oo much false pride and a tendency to blame outside influences too much (refs etc) has not helped. We have kind of forgotten what we once were and have retreated in to over protectiveness and delusion

Needs someone now and again to say it how it is from time to time. Like the attitude of the players is not appropriate for a club of this level and while owners are well meaning up to a point and did save us from the last lot it doesn't ean they have a free pass to turn us in to a mid table club. Our revenues are in the top 10 in the world and the club is 3rd or 4th best supported. Stop telling us that 4m for Clint Dempsey is the height of our ambitions

And please, less of the excuses. Excuses are what is killing his club. They are endless and getting worse
 

Quagmire81

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To gain winning mentality you have to win games, it's that simple. How do you win games, by scoring goals right. So why do we keep making it hard for ourself scoring goals. We are benching the two most scoring midfielders for two games in a row now! that's just silly.
I feel as long as our midfield is filled up with players thats can't score a goal if their life dependss on it, we gonna keep struggling doing so, atleast as long as we only play with one up front, our two wide attackers are just regular wing players in disguise really.
 

Hope in your heart

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(...)

And please, less of the excuses. Excuses are what is killing his club. They are endless and getting worse
Agreed, mate. The more difficult the club's situation becomes, the more excuses are bandied around... truth be told, at executive level, we are very much a drunken ship. No clear direction, no clear signs of ambition, and very contradictory signals sent out to the fans.

Like you, I'm less blaming the gaffer, who finds himself fighting with the means given to him (or not), but much more the upper level. This mess needs really to be sorted out. We need a good CEO in this club, a genuinely top class man, and fast! Winning mentality has to come down from the very top of the club.
 

brush85

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Who are the 2 scoring mids on the bench? Sahin has exactly got a great track history in scoring goals...he averages about 1 every 9 games in his career.
Suso? One day maybe but he is probably a good few years away from being a reliable scorer for us..same with Sterling.

Hardest thing in the sport is to score goals, thats why they cost so much money to buy. So we can either hope to get lucky in finding those players or we can invest in some ready made players to at least give our Manager a fighting chance.
 

RichLFC

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Agreed, mate. The more difficult the club's situation becomes, the more excuses are bandied around... truth be told, at executive level, we are very much a drunken ship. No clear direction, no clear signs of ambition, and very contradictory signals sent out to the fans.

Like you, I'm less blaming the gaffer, who finds himself fighting with the means given to him (or not), but much more the upper level. This mess needs really to be sorted out. We need a good CEO in this club, a genuinely top class man, and fast! Winning mentality has to come down from the very top of the club.
Agreed. In the long run, the fish rots from the head. In the main match thread, I did say that I think Rodgers may have been better served taking the Spurs job. At least Levy can sign players instead of lame arsing around like the useless bastards we have

But in the end, I think a winning mentality and excuses are like chalk and cheese ultimately. Excuses have become way too dominant a feature at all levels. Know choices are limited right now but there does need to be a greater willingness to accept responsibility at all levels of the club, support, to playing staff, managers, owners, everything

There is still too much of a blame outsiders for our own fuck ups culture going on here, it's deeply ingrained and it's taking us down

Owners need to stop thinking they are so clever when they arein football terms clueless and take some advice from people who know football and employ football savvy people, whatever the cost

Manager may need to be a bit more pragmatic and stop persisting with bad experiments, and stop praising average performances

Fans may need to stop overrating average players and stop the poisonous evertonianesque attitude towards officials etc, and accept some people are doing things better and more effectively than us sometimes

Players need to stop abdicating responsibility on the pitch. Hiding isn't acceptable

That would be a start, can build up from there but perhaps there is too much pride at stake to admit properly to past errors, that's my concern. It's too easy for people to pretend there isn't a problem and take comfort in jam tomorrow, when an attitude shift is most sorely needed.
 

Arminius

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'Winning mentality' to me is often what people on the outside looking in call the concentration and determination to do all the little things, all the time.

Tonight, Downing showed a perfect example of not taking care of the little things. You don't need to be a career fullback to keep your legs in motion and run next to a white shirt running through your area of defensive responsibility. That sort of lapse is becoming characteristic. You add a few those together every game, other team members stop caring, and you have people talking about lacking a 'winning mentality'.

On at least one team I played for, Downing probably would have been subbed at the half with a broken nose.
 

Quagmire81

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Who are the 2 scoring mids on the bench? Sahin has exactly got a great track history in scoring goals...he averages about 1 every 9 games in his career.
Suso? One day maybe but he is probably a good few years away from being a reliable scorer for us..same with Sterling.

Hardest thing in the sport is to score goals, thats why they cost so much money to buy. So we can either hope to get lucky in finding those players or we can invest in some ready made players to at least give our Manager a fighting chance.
Sahin has goals and assist to his name, thats more than the big fat 0 that both Allen and henderson has to theirs.But they both been starters in the last two games, which we both failed to score in if look away from the Own goal today.You also forgot shelvey who has 4 goals to his name in europe. I have him over allen and henderson any day.Your right about suso tho, can't expect too much from him yet but still always look more of a goal threat than thoose two I've already mentioned a bit now.
 

lfc.eddie

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Scrap the word "Winning" in this title... start with mentality first. That is what we need. Players just don't have any, forget about winning.
 

WrinkledMind

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I think the damage was done in Rafa's last season with us.

I distinctly remember how shoulders and heads would fall down that season, everytime we went a goal down.
A major reason for it was lack of leaders.Rafa didn't replace Xabi, Arbeloa and Sami.Stevie and Nando were mostly injured.

That fragile mentality pretty much existed and grew under Roy and in Kenny's second year.Changing managers, having not so great results and not adding players with a strong mentality--apart from Suarez-- has made sure, that fragile mentality still exists.

Rectifying that takes a hell lot of time.You can't expect BR to do that 3-4 months in his job.It taks time.
 

LFC-Orlando

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@WrinkledMind yes, but did you see Stevie today after the match? Hope in your Heart brought it up twice too, that it was sad and worrying to see our captain acting as he just had another day at the office.

Big smiles and everything. It's like he's given up. In 2005 and 2006, in 2 certain Cup finals, our captain inspired us to do the unthinkable.

Now he's having a lough with his England part time team-mate (Lennon) and he doesn't care - as much as he used to. Or he's accepted mediocrity, like many supporters.
 

WrinkledMind

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I think he has.
Stevie of the old always talked about winning trophies.Every bloody interview.
Few weeks ago I heard Stevie on BBC FF, and he said he knows that he might never win the league.

Even if he is being realistic, its not the Stevie I have seen or heard in the past.Stevie of past would have still hoped for it.

One of the great things that Houlier did was making Stevie the captain because he felt he could inspire everyone more than Sami.
Sami geniunely cared about the club, but GH was right.
And his tough decision on captaincy made this club more successful.

BR is at a similar crossroads.But I doubt whether he has the guts to select Agger(who I believe should be the captain) over Gerrard.

PS:-I understand taking it away from Stevie is way more difficult than taking the captaincy away from Sami was.
But's the club well being is important.GH did that and so did the great Bob, with Thomo --after winning an European club.