Your thoughts on the season to come - Prediction time

Irishanfield

Internet Terrorist
Joined
May 5, 2017
Messages
3,580
Likes
6,527
We need to convert our 12 draws last season to more wins.. i expect 6 draws this season giving us another 12 more points to get closer to city. Even if city slip, they are capable of 90+ points
So you expect us to lose 5 games again this season ?
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
19
I don't really believe in narratives like this. Context is important so for each of the 3 finals:

League Cup 2016: Klopp only joined 4 months ago. The ideas and way of playing was new. Plus we were against City, who had the better team.

Europa League 2016: Klopp still in his first season. Playing against a Sevilla side who had vastly more experience in the Europa final, winning the previous 2. We lost due to a couple of defensive calamities, mainly by Moreno who has since been replaced.

Champions League final 2018: same comment with Sevilla. Playing against the most experienced champions league side. We defied expectations by even getting there. Two main things went wrong for us. Salah coming off and not having good enough options to replace him and the errors from Karius. Since then we've provided more attacking option in Shaqiri, and broke the world record for signing a keeper.

I agree with the narrative we can't judge this season by silverware. It's judged by how well we do and if we've progressed in the main areas. We're still vast underdogs in the league and Europe so can't be expected to win those. The domestic cups are one off games like someone said. Paul Joyce wrote a good article about how our squad depth can only be judged in May and I agree.

This season I'm looking for some consistency. None of this scoring 4 against City in emphatic fashion only to lose 1-0 to Swansea next weekend. I'm looking for us to cope with fighting on multiple fronts, reduce our goals conceded particularly at set pieces, reduce those frustrating draws against park the bus teams. We're certainly on the right track.
Lot of excuses there a lot if which can be put to Jose and Manu yet they managed to win trophies under Jose in less time of him being there. If spending the m9ney we have to make sure we fit the pieces of Klopp's jigsaw together does not bare fruit then questions have to be asked on what is missing? If we have the best squad seen here since the EPL started and then performs no better than past squads we put together then what exactly can be done and changed? Would leave more questions than answers and would not look good for Klopp either would make him a serial loser of finals to an extent that can not be ignored.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts...
Admin
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
21,658
Likes
19,649
Lot of excuses there a lot if which can be put to Jose and Manu yet they managed to win trophies under Jose in less time of him being there. If spending the m9ney we have to make sure we fit the pieces of Klopp's jigsaw together does not bare fruit then questions have to be asked on what is missing? If we have the best squad seen here since the EPL started and then performs no better than past squads we put together then what exactly can be done and changed? Would leave more questions than answers and would not look good for Klopp either would make him a serial loser of finals to an extent that can not be ignored.
A cup final is always a throw of the dice. You can be lucky or not, and it will have an enormous influence on the outcome. As YeGra said, there were a lot of things going against us in these three finals. The good thing is that it statistically raises the likeliness of us getting a lucky break in future finals. If Klopp continues his outstanding work with us, there is a big chance of it happening soon.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
19
A cup final is always a throw of the dice. You can be lucky or not, and it will have an enormous influence on the outcome. As YeGra said, there were a lot of things going against us in these three finals. The good thing is that it statistically raises the likeliness of us getting a lucky break in future finals. If Klopp continues his outstanding work with us, there is a big chance of it happening soon.
So Manu Chelsea ManCity and Arsenal are all just luckier than us?????

This is sport and luck has many factors thrown in to it like injury ref decisions and general rub of the green like a deflection off the ref going your way or a mistake not costing you or costing them.But all the bad luck or good luck in the world will not even cover 5 minutes of a game and that leaves close to 90 minutes given extra time averages that nowadays.

You make your own luck in sport and good or bad luck will never be an excuse or reason for losing a game or a tournament purely because of the time given to get things done in games. The best team will not always win because it is not a sport based on performance it is based on results. Meaning if you score 1 more goal than your opponant then you win and even if bad luck results in a goal conceded that in itself only equates to a small amount of time in a game so plenty of time to do what a winning team does and that is score more than your opponant.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts...
Admin
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
21,658
Likes
19,649
So Manu Chelsea ManCity and Arsenal are all just luckier than us?????

This is sport and luck has many factors thrown in to it like injury ref decisions and general rub of the green like a deflection off the ref going your way or a mistake not costing you or costing them.But all the bad luck or good luck in the world will not even cover 5 minutes of a game and that leaves close to 90 minutes given extra time averages that nowadays.

You make your own luck in sport and good or bad luck will never be an excuse or reason for losing a game or a tournament purely because of the time given to get things done in games. The best team will not always win because it is not a sport based on performance it is based on results. Meaning if you score 1 more goal than your opponant then you win and even if bad luck results in a goal conceded that in itself only equates to a small amount of time in a game so plenty of time to do what a winning team does and that is score more than your opponant.
Losing out on penalties against Man City? Bad luck.
Not being awarded two clear penalties in the first half vs. Sevilla when we were already leading by one goal? Bad luck. Moreno losing his head against his former club? Bad luck.
Losing Salah after twenty minutes and Karius experiencing his worst game for us in two years? Bad luck again.

I'm not making excuses. The other teams were probably stronger than us and their victory wasn't undeserved (bar for that fucker Ramos). But a tight game against quality opponents hinges on a few key moments, that's how it is.

Anyway, my point was mainly that getting to three finals in three years is a hell of an achievement, and we'll likely get other chances to make that final step. Hopefully this season already, fingers crossed!
 

YeGra

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Messages
787
Likes
1,186
So Manu Chelsea ManCity and Arsenal are all just luckier than us?????

This is sport and luck has many factors thrown in to it like injury ref decisions and general rub of the green like a deflection off the ref going your way or a mistake not costing you or costing them.But all the bad luck or good luck in the world will not even cover 5 minutes of a game and that leaves close to 90 minutes given extra time averages that nowadays.

You make your own luck in sport and good or bad luck will never be an excuse or reason for losing a game or a tournament purely because of the time given to get things done in games. The best team will not always win because it is not a sport based on performance it is based on results. Meaning if you score 1 more goal than your opponant then you win and even if bad luck results in a goal conceded that in itself only equates to a small amount of time in a game so plenty of time to do what a winning team does and that is score more than your opponant.
You mistake my point. It's not about excuses or luck. Let me make another point: how many players in the starting lineup against Sevilla make the starting lineup now? Looking in wiki I'd argue maximum 4. So are you going to compound the failings of our older teams that had less quality onto our current one?

It's not about excuses or luck it's about reasons, and those reasons are "yes some good players, can play well, but stuff is missing"

So when Moreno did a brain fart in the first minute of the second half against Sevilla, we further recognised we had a LB problem; Robertson is now our main LB and is absolutely class.

Karius made crucial mistakes in the champions league final, we further recognised we needed a keeper and paid a world record for a keeper?

Not enough quality in midfield? Let's splash the cash on some quality players like Fabinho and Keita.

The Mane, Salah and Firmino trio weren't even a thing for the two finals we lost; we didn't have Salah or Mane, and Firmino didn't start to prove crucial til the season after.

We can only judge this squads success on what they do from the moment we have that squad - our squad is vastly different to previous years. You could argue 5 of our current starting 11 (so nearly half the team!) came to prominence the past 6 months: Alisson, TAA, Robertson, VvD, Keita. Fabinho might be the starter in a few months time which makes 6. Salah only came in 12 months ago that's 7. I think we need to sit back and appreciate how rapid our improvement of the squad has been.
 

Red_Jedi

Anfield kick about
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
1,233
Likes
3,313
I won't slit my wrists if thats where your going. However, if we were to lose another finaland finish the season empty handed, it would raise quesions against Klopp and the players, are they winners or a very good an exciting team.
The same questions that were asked at the end of last season - and Klopp duly bought Fabinho, Shaqiri and Allison (with Keita already on his way)....

Def dont slit your wrists, hang around - this is going to be one hell of a ride. That's if you like rides!
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
19
You mistake my point. It's not about excuses or luck. Let me make another point: how many players in the starting lineup against Sevilla make the starting lineup now? Looking in wiki I'd argue maximum 4. So are you going to compound the failings of our older teams that had less quality onto our current one?

It's not about excuses or luck it's about reasons, and those reasons are "yes some good players, can play well, but stuff is missing"

So when Moreno did a brain fart in the first minute of the second half against Sevilla, we further recognised we had a LB problem; Robertson is now our main LB and is absolutely class.

Karius made crucial mistakes in the champions league final, we further recognised we needed a keeper and paid a world record for a keeper?

Not enough quality in midfield? Let's splash the cash on some quality players like Fabinho and Keita.

The Mane, Salah and Firmino trio weren't even a thing for the two finals we lost; we didn't have Salah or Mane, and Firmino didn't start to prove crucial til the season after.

We can only judge this squads success on what they do from the moment we have that squad - our squad is vastly different to previous years. You could argue 5 of our current starting 11 (so nearly half the team!) came to prominence the past 6 months: Alisson, TAA, Robertson, VvD, Keita. Fabinho might be the starter in a few months time which makes 6. Salah only came in 12 months ago that's 7. I think we need to sit back and appreciate how rapid our improvement of the squad has been.
Your point holds no water you were answering a view on winning silverware this season and how it is almost vital we now win something. The very fact you bring up our squad only having around 4 players in it now from that squad is one of the biggest reasons we should be winning silverware.

If improving your squad dies not improve the results you had previously then what is the point in improving it? We made the champions league final with a good squad last season but we now have a top quality squad so obviously that brings with it a certain expectation and minimum requirement to make it value for money.

We reached 2 finals under Klopp with a very poor squad compared to the last 2 seasons. So again the fact we have so many top players all working so well as a team should mean we are far more capable of winning trophies.

The fact we are capable and expected to do well does not guarantee we will but it dictates that we should and means if we do not questions have to be asked.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
19
Losing out on penalties against Man City? Bad luck.
Not being awarded two clear penalties in the first half vs. Sevilla when we were already leading by one goal? Bad luck. Moreno losing his head against his former club? Bad luck.
Losing Salah after twenty minutes and Karius experiencing his worst game for us in two years? Bad luck again.

I'm not making excuses. The other teams were probably stronger than us and their victory wasn't undeserved (bar for that fucker Ramos). But a tight game against quality opponents hinges on a few key moments, that's how it is.

Anyway, my point was mainly that getting to three finals in three years is a hell of an achievement, and we'll likely get other chances to make that final step. Hopefully this season already, fingers crossed!
Those moments with Moreno were poor managerial decisions to put him in the squad in the first place so not bad luck. Penalties given against you are momentary decisions again rest of game is Liverpool's to show they are better and they did not so verdict is not good enough on the day. Luck bad or good does not decide a game over 90 plus minutes it is that simple. Moments that luck happens do not out weigh the time spent trying to create an attack and score the goals to win the game. If in all these added minutes of build up and attack we did not create enough or score enough to win the game then that is where the game was won or lost not moments that favoured an opponent.

Liverpool will always be in charge of what they can do for themselves anything else is out of their control so can not be used as reasons or excuses it is that simple. If our player is sent off for a challenge that did not warrant that punishment yes it is bad luck but it should not dictate that we now lose the game because 10 players win plenty of games so it is no excuse for losing instead it is a reason for finding it hard to win. Finding something hard does not give anyone the right to make excuses.Because alternatively when we win against a 10 man team we do not say we were lucky because we still need to play good to win.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts...
Admin
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
21,658
Likes
19,649
That's all not very well reflected to be fair. Who should Klopp for instance have selected as left back at the time? We had an awful lot of injuries that season, and there wasn't much choice to pick from. And for the rest: whether you agree with this or not, tight games are decided by a few key moments. Football is like that.

Over a whole season, I don't believe that luck is involved indeed (looking at a league table for instance), but in a cup game, there is definitely a part of luck involved.

Anyway, this has gone well off-topic now. Back to this season's prediction game...
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
19
That's all not very well reflected to be fair. Who should Klopp for instance have selected as left back at the time? We had an awful lot of injuries that season, and there wasn't much choice to pick from. And for the rest: whether you agree with this or not, tight games are decided by a few key moments. Football is like that.

Over a whole season, I don't believe that luck is involved indeed (looking at a league table for instance), but in a cup game, there is definitely a part of luck involved.

Anyway, this has gone well off-topic now. Back to this season's prediction game...
Not having a LB as cover again comes down to Klopp. We were lucky the following season because had Milner been injured we may of been back to reliance on Moreno and not of even gained a Champions League spot.

You can not start throwing past results in finals and the poor excuses given for losing them as counter arguements to why we need a bit of luck this season.when in reality we just were not good enough back then and are now.

Luck takes many forms in sport but it will never dictate a result over 90 minutes or 2 games in a cup. Most of those minutes in those games are available to a team for creating and scoring goals to win the game.

That is fact mate so no luck has no baring on winning or losing it only has baring on making things easier or harder.
 

ubermick

Willing to drive Lovren to the airport
Admin
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
11,179
Likes
18,291
There's most certainly an "x-factor" that you just can't account for.

I remember (believe it was under Kenny) a season where we finished sixth but we hit the post some inordinate amount of times. There was a season under Rodgers where it felt like every team that came to play us had Gigi Buffon in his prime in goal for them.

BBC ran a story which showed we were the "unluckiest team" in the league when it came to decisions going against us (United being the luckiest, surprise surprise), and had everything played out "as it should" we'd have finished 2nd with 87 points.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45087444

It's not an excuse for poor performances or individual errors, however - which I think Moreno has more than his fair share of.
 

lfc.eddie

"¿Plata... O Plomo?"
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
49,937
Likes
37,060
That is fact mate so no luck has no baring on winning or losing it only has baring on making things easier or harder.
Making it easier to win would help no? When things are easier, you can achieve it with less stress and that helps in a long run for not straining oneself, don't you think? That extra 10% that luck could give you can be detrimental between getting 3 points or 1 point. Unlike American sports where there is no tie/draw, unlucky teams that dominate their opponent only need the slightest change of luck to change the complexion of the match/table.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
18,339
Likes
30,471
Look at the 08/09 season. How injury time, fortunate decisions, and last minute flurry goals by no marks like Macheda got Utd over the line.

Liverpool were clearly the best team that season. But Utd got the luck and we didn’t.
 

shachart

"You're supposed to help people that need a bit."
Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
1,885
Likes
1,504
The same questions that were asked at the end of last season - and Klopp duly bought Fabinho, Shaqiri and Allison (with Keita already on his way)....

Def dont slit your wrists, hang around - this is going to be one hell of a ride. That's if you like rides!
I'm one of the farts around here. I prefer as just winning. no excitement needed. Start a season expecting to win everything and well .. win everything.
I'm used to things being simple. Liverpool play, Rushie scores, Liverpool win. Why did we stop doing that ?
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
800
Likes
897
There are those who say we've had little luck going our way in the past few seasons, while others would point to us not having decent enough players to get us over the winning line. Whatever the reason, it's about time we started winning some silverware, and with the squad we have this season there is every chance of us doing just that.
 

Gone Kloppo

Formerly known as Ʒan
Joined
Jul 15, 2016
Messages
1,667
Likes
2,693
Look at the 08/09 season. How injury time, fortunate decisions, and last minute flurry goals by no marks like Macheda got Utd over the line.

Liverpool were clearly the best team that season. But Utd got the luck and we didn’t.
I guess losing to relegated Middlesbrough and United having a 7 point gap and a game in hand in early March doesn't help either?

The reality is that after mid jan there were far more weeks where we were at least a couple of games out of their reach than being within reach. For them to have lost it would have been a pretty epic choke.
 

YeGra

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Messages
787
Likes
1,186
Your point holds no water you were answering a view on winning silverware this season and how it is almost vital we now win something. The very fact you bring up our squad only having around 4 players in it now from that squad is one of the biggest reasons we should be winning silverware.

If improving your squad dies not improve the results you had previously then what is the point in improving it? We made the champions league final with a good squad last season but we now have a top quality squad so obviously that brings with it a certain expectation and minimum requirement to make it value for money.

We reached 2 finals under Klopp with a very poor squad compared to the last 2 seasons. So again the fact we have so many top players all working so well as a team should mean we are far more capable of winning trophies.

The fact we are capable and expected to do well does not guarantee we will but it dictates that we should and means if we do not questions have to be asked.
*rolls up sleeves and prepares to write a post full of logic and counter points that will win me an award*

Anyway, this has gone well off-topic now. Back to this season's prediction game...
Fine! :((I will predict we will come second about 5-10 points behind City.
 

Red_Jedi

Anfield kick about
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
1,233
Likes
3,313
I'm one of the farts around here. I prefer as just winning. no excitement needed. Start a season expecting to win everything and well .. win everything.
I'm used to things being simple. Liverpool play, Rushie scores, Liverpool win. Why did we stop doing that ?
Cos Rushie got old and we bought Dean Saunders.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
19
There's most certainly an "x-factor" that you just can't account for.

I remember (believe it was under Kenny) a season where we finished sixth but we hit the post some inordinate amount of times. There was a season under Rodgers where it felt like every team that came to play us had Gigi Buffon in his prime in goal for them.

BBC ran a story which showed we were the "unluckiest team" in the league when it came to decisions going against us (United being the luckiest, surprise surprise), and had everything played out "as it should" we'd have finished 2nd with 87 points.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45087444

It's not an excuse for poor performances or individual errors, however - which I think Moreno has more than his fair share of.
Hitting the post is not unlucky it just means your shot was not as accurate as you like it to be and no different to a shot that is straight at the keeper. Anyone who believes luck dictates results over 90 plus minutes really needs to go an examine games more and see how many bad luck and good luck situations arise in a game because it is not many and accounts for no more than 5% of a game so in that other 95% it is upto a team to make their possession and attacking play count. Nothing more to it than that football is very simple and the more you complicate it the more you will start believing things like luck effect results.

Could take the game with the most unlucky situations ever where say ref was giving nothing even tho clear fouls freekicks corners and the like he even gave them a penalty that was not. Now even an extreme like that will likely only cover 10 minutes maybe 15 at a stretch when add up all the broken up play. So that still leaves 75 minutes where a team should be doing its best and scoring goals that can not be argued against. So no matter how you look at football over that length of time if a team does the right things at the right time and scores plenty and defends well then they will win.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
19
Making it easier to win would help no? When things are easier, you can achieve it with less stress and that helps in a long run for not straining oneself, don't you think? That extra 10% that luck could give you can be detrimental between getting 3 points or 1 point. Unlike American sports where there is no tie/draw, unlucky teams that dominate their opponent only need the slightest change of luck to change the complexion of the match/table.
Not really pal as it takes true extremes to be that unlucky. Am talking a team that scores maybe 4 goals everyone marginally onside yet ref say's all were off now that is unlucky i grant you but also thrown into that you could look at the rest of the game that does not include those moments and still find mistakes or things that the team could of done better and gone on and scored that goal where it was not marginal for offside so clear for even a blind ref.so over 90 plus minutes in a game where luck as gone against a team they can still look at that game after and pick apart what they did wrong and what they should and could of done better. So instead if using we were unlucky as a reason you lose just be honest and say we should of done better because that is the truth because time on the pitch where your in control as a team over what happens out weighs the influence a ref or luck has on the game especially if like us you bost 65% possession or more in plenty of games.
 

Commando

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
1,114
Likes
2,849
I guess losing to relegated Middlesbrough and United having a 7 point gap and a game in hand in early March doesn't help either?

The reality is that after mid jan there were far more weeks where we were at least a couple of games out of their reach than being within reach. For them to have lost it would have been a pretty epic choke.
I seem to recall that we had a few seasons where we dropped points to at least one of the relegated teams. Last year (I know there were reasons, injuries and CL semi and final) we only drew with a poor Stoke team. Hopefully this season we'll smash these teams.
 

YeGra

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2017
Messages
787
Likes
1,186
Hitting the post is not unlucky it just means your shot was not as accurate as you like it to be and no different to a shot that is straight at the keeper. Anyone who believes luck dictates results over 90 plus minutes really needs to go an examine games more and see how many bad luck and good luck situations arise in a game because it is not many and accounts for no more than 5% of a game so in that other 95% it is upto a team to make their possession and attacking play count. Nothing more to it than that football is very simple and the more you complicate it the more you will start believing things like luck effect results.

Could take the game with the most unlucky situations ever where say ref was giving nothing even tho clear fouls freekicks corners and the like he even gave them a penalty that was not. Now even an extreme like that will likely only cover 10 minutes maybe 15 at a stretch when add up all the broken up play. So that still leaves 75 minutes where a team should be doing its best and scoring goals that can not be argued against. So no matter how you look at football over that length of time if a team does the right things at the right time and scores plenty and defends well then they will win.
There's one slight flaw in your argument: you're making it seem easy to score goals. Put it into numbers, even if a team is super prolific and scores 114 goals in a season. That's 3 goals a game on average which is boss BUT in terms of minutes that's 1 goal every 30 minutes. So if in a 30 minute period, you work hard to score your goal, and then a bout of bad luck comes your way and concede one goal through a poor penalty decision, your average dictates you have just two more time periods to score a goal based on your average goals per minute ratio.

Then when you factor in that the team you're facing has a goal average as well, they are likely to score again.

What I'm trying to say is goals are rarer in games than you think. It's often made of fine margins of 1 goal leads.

Plus psychological elements come into every game. A team scores a goal, they gain confidence. And the atmosphere in the stadium changes as well.

You're making it sound like it is easy to score a goal but it's not. You have to work hard for them so when something goes against you, you have to work even harder. And that's hard.
 



Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Likes
19
There's one slight flaw in your argument: you're making it seem easy to score goals. Put it into numbers, even if a team is super prolific and scores 114 goals in a season. That's 3 goals a game on average which is boss BUT in terms of minutes that's 1 goal every 30 minutes. So if in a 30 minute period, you work hard to score your goal, and then a bout of bad luck comes your way and concede one goal through a poor penalty decision, your average dictates you have just two more time periods to score a goal based on your average goals per minute ratio.

Then when you factor in that the team you're facing has a goal average as well, they are likely to score again.

What I'm trying to say is goals are rarer in games than you think. It's often made of fine margins of 1 goal leads.

Plus psychological elements come into every game. A team scores a goal, they gain confidence. And the atmosphere in the stadium changes as well.

You're making it sound like it is easy to score a goal but it's not. You have to work hard for them so when something goes against you, you have to work even harder. And that's hard.
Never said it was easy to score goals at all or made it sound that way. Easy or not it is what a team must do to get 3 points. No goals only makes the best result possible a draw and in cup competition that will not win you anything will it unless your so good at penalties you never get beat. Luck has no baring on results in football and if you are relying on a ref decision or a lucky deflection to favour you in a game then it is a poor game plan. Can look at any game ever played from the worse refereed to the best one and the luck good or bad in those games will not of been the difference in the result. Because if a team list 2-1 in the last minutes due to a controversial penalty when deserved the draw at least you can look at all the other moments in that game the losing team should of done better and it will always out weigh the moments that unlucky decision took.

Concentrating on moments and minutes in games as the reason for winning or losing is very poor because their are 90 plus minutes to concentrate on so diluting a game down to moments leaves almost all of the game as what exactly?

Take a game where both teams are playing poor and nothing much is happening other than passing and losing the ball in midfield all game. Do both managers then look at that 0-0 game and suggest they needed some luck or do they suggest they needed that better passing or movement to make more clear attacking chances happen? If luck won games and tournaments then clubs would change their mascots after losing games or employ only lucky people. Good or bad luck in sport will always effect the game when it happens at that moment just like a dodgy tackle will or a substitution can. These are moments and minimal ones at that so the rest of the game gives any team no matter how unlucky or lucky the time to do if they are good enough what needs doing to win. For every If that shot had not hit the bar or post their is a If that player had passed left not right or seen that runner not this one. Decisions on a field could always be looked at after the game and changed to benefit the team and these are the reasons the game is won or lost not luck.

Liverpool are winning more games and playing far better now than ever before under Klopp because of one key factor and that is decision making in those moments in a game. It is about doing the right things at the right time more often and that is why players rated higher than others cost more it is because they make the right decisions more often than other players which helps the team win. Salah is no better finisher than Firmino in terms of the ability to score but what he is better at is being in the right spot at the right time to get a scoring chance this means he gets more chances to score than most players which is why his tally was so high last season. The decisions of our front 3 when working in harmony are what makes them so potent they
There's one slight flaw in your argument: you're making it seem easy to score goals. Put it into numbers, even if a team is super prolific and scores 114 goals in a season. That's 3 goals a game on average which is boss BUT in terms of minutes that's 1 goal every 30 minutes. So if in a 30 minute period, you work hard to score your goal, and then a bout of bad luck comes your way and concede one goal through a poor penalty decision, your average dictates you have just two more time periods to score a goal based on your average goals per minute ratio.

Then when you factor in that the team you're facing has a goal average as well, they are likely to score again.

What I'm trying to say is goals are rarer in games than you think. It's often made of fine margins of 1 goal leads.

Plus psychological elements come into every game. A team scores a goal, they gain confidence. And the atmosphere in the stadium changes as well.

You're making it sound like it is easy to score a goal but it's not. You have to work hard for them so when something goes against you, you have to work even harder. And that's hard.
Never said it was easy to score but here is a fact mate if the team does not score how can it ever win? Relying on luck to be able to score will bring nothing. When you assemble a team of players all some of the best at their given positions then the only factors in a game that can win or lose it are players decisions. If a team is full of players that make the right decisions at the right times in games and make them consistently through a season then that team will win a lot of games. Salah is not the best finisher in the EPL not even in the top 5 but what makes him so potent is his decision making. He will always create and get more goalscoring chances than anyone else because of his decisions on where to be or when to run or stay which makes him always in the right place at the right time. Keita has power and skill but his biggest asset is his decision making in the important moments in games he rarely makes the wrong pass or wrong run into space even his fouling is calculated at times looking at Leipzig games where he takes a card in moments t
There's one slight flaw in your argument: you're making it seem easy to score goals. Put it into numbers, even if a team is super prolific and scores 114 goals in a season. That's 3 goals a game on average which is boss BUT in terms of minutes that's 1 goal every 30 minutes. So if in a 30 minute period, you work hard to score your goal, and then a bout of bad luck comes your way and concede one goal through a poor penalty decision, your average dictates you have just two more time periods to score a goal based on your average goals per minute ratio.

Then when you factor in that the team you're facing has a goal average as well, they are likely to score again.

What I'm trying to say is goals are rarer in games than you think. It's often made of fine margins of 1 goal leads.

Plus psychological elements come into every game. A team scores a goal, they gain confidence. And the atmosphere in the stadium changes as well.

You're making it sound like it is easy to score a goal but it's not. You have to work hard for them so when something goes against you, you have to work even harder. And that's hard.
I never said it is easy to score goals at all and if it sounds that way then it was not suppose to. But facts are if goals were so rare draws would be more frequent than wins and they are not pal. Home win 1-0 is the most frequent scoreline you will see. Making goals far more frequent than you give them credit.

But even if it was more frequent to draw 0-0 what luck has to do with those results can also be deemed relatively pointless. Could still look at the biggest factors that make a team win and that is decision making in game be it players managers tactics or use of subs. Pundits pull apart games after every game and may mention luck as a factor on occasion but it is very contradictory of them to do because the very fact they can pull decisions made in game apart after games explains how the game was won and lost and it is always wrong decisions at key times that caused a loss and right decisions at key times that help a team win.
 

RedForever2014

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
3,438
Likes
3,052
Still waiting for the final squad for the season as of 1/9, before fully assessing our chances.

Hoping we don't do anything silly in terms of who we sell.

The Klavan one was interesting. Personally I wonder if he really wanted to go, or the club wanted to sell him. We haven't been able to offload who we wanted to, so did we target someone we would have otherwise kept to save wages and raise a bit of cash?

He was getting a bit injury prone, but he was a proven performer in a department we need extra cover given that many of them are also injury prone.

I'm presuming that Grujic, Origi, Migs and Markovic will leave or not be used much. But I'm hoping we keep Solanke, Clyne, Lallana and Moreno for this season and we should be if we intend to have the squad to compete.

So how does the outfield squad look year on year?

Due to long term injuries to Lallana and Clyne and delayed arrivals, last season we effectively started with 4 full backs (Gomez, TAA, Robertson, Moreno), 3 centre backs (Matip, Lovren, Klavan), 6 midfielders (Gini, Hendo, Can, Milner, Oxlade, Coutinho) and 6 forwards (Mo, Mane, Bobby, Sturridge, Solanke, Ings).

That's 19 outfield players plus Grujic until Jan (but only used once so not counted).

In Jan we added VVD, lost Coutinho, loaned Sturridge. Clyne and Lallana made so little contribution they shouldn't be fully counted, though they boosted the squad to 20 from April at a time when we had injuries, so they were a help.

The three outfield signings have added quality, but we are light Coutinho, Can, Ings and Klavan from this time last year.

Much depends on who can stay fit, but aside from upgrading at keeper, we are clearly stronger in central defence, with Gomez becoming the 4th centre back we didn't have this time last year, VVD effectively being a huge upgrade on Klavan, with Clyne replacing Gomez as a proper right back squad player. Left back is currently the same.

Midfield can be debated, Fab is probably an upgrade on Can, Keita will be as effective as Coutinho I'm sure, but Lallana is not a patch on Oxlade.

Shaqiri is able to play AM or in the forwards, and thus part compensates Oxlade's loss, but ostensibly is an upgrade on Ings in the front 6.

If Sturridge can stay injury free, we have twice the back up 9 we had last season, whilst Solanke should do better this time after many first team experiences last season. If he can't he needs to go out on loan in Jan or next summer, but not now.

So with 8 defenders, 6 midfielders and 6 forwards we're definitely a player better off than this time last year, stronger in defence, at least as strong in midfield, and deeper up top.

Add the improvement at keeper, plus Camacho, Jones and Philips having a good chance of becoming considered first team squad players if they carry their pre season performances into the League Cup, and we are stronger all round.

Ideally you'd have 23 outfield players who you can count on, so I do think we're a player or two light of the ideal squad, probably another 10 come forward (as Fekir would have been).

To keep progressing, there is also some clear replacing and upgrading going to be required in terms of centre backs, back up left back, Lallana and maybe up top for Sturridge.

But what is very clear is that we're not overstocked, and selling the likes of Clyne, Moreno, Lallana, and even loaning out Solanke, will take away from the improvements we've made, as it'll leave us short of the required depth.

We have 20 outfield players, the kids can top that up, but not replace any of them.

Klopp's comments that any offers for others beyond those muted to leave would depend on the offer.

We really shouldn't be selling any more and shouldn't need to. We've spent £100m net under Klopp this far, there should be no need to net this down selling players we can use.
 
Last edited:

basil1492

TIA Squad Member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
4,678
Likes
1,470
Didn't want to do any predictions till i'd seem a but moe from the other top 6 contenders but halfway through the Chelsea-Arsenal game has left me filled with confidence we have nothing to worry about from them. Arsenals defense has looked shocking and Chelseas in this game even worse. If Arsenals strikers could hit the net from 6 yards they'd be well ahead but they've looked terrible too so i really think we'll finish ahead of these 2. Utd have had Mourinho in charge long enough for him to remove ANY attacking ambition and i'm hoping Spurs fall apart at their new stadium, always a possibility.

That leaves just City. They've got a load of strength in depth but i think everyone agrees KDB is their best player and makes them tick. Him being out for 3 months (maybe 4 by time he's back to fitness) could give us the chance to get ahead of them and i really think if we can build just a small gap we'll hold onto it this time. We may slip up against the bigger sides but unlike past seasons i just don't see us losing against the smaller sides in a race to win the league.

My prediction is 1st in the league, semis in the CL and at least one final in the other cups (which unfortunately i think we'll lose but don't care, its the league i want).
 

Danny_

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
1,432
Likes
706
Well, City look like the same monsters they were last season, maybe even worse and they don't even have De Bruyne. We are going to have to get a very high points total this season to do it.
 

Claymenza

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
1,771
Likes
288
When mane, salah and firmino cannot unlock that defense....
We have hungry shaqiri and sturridge coming off the bench at the 60 minute mark, and lallana/ox to cover the ground behind them.

We haven't had that calibur in a long long time. Last season, it was just lallana and he can't play in the final third anymore.