Your thoughts on the season to come - Prediction time

[sms1986]

To take the most recent example- in 2013-14, we lost the title not through Gerrard’s slip and Crystanbul but by the referees robbing us in the consecutive matches against Manchester City and Chelsea over Christmas. These two matches have been debated to death on this board, so I won’t start that discussion again, but it only takes two or three matches (and only one decision in each) per season to affect the final table.

You could just as easily say the reverse though, especially as you say it only takes two or three matches to affect the final table (we also lost to Hull and Southampton that season, for example). Also, we went on an eleven game unbeaten run in that season some time after the City and Chelsea match - why would that have been allowed if we were being denied from winning the league? Especially as that unbeaten run included beating City as well as Arsenal, United and Spurs.

What about the other title challenges we've had since 1990?

edit - Also, what if we win the league this season? What would have changed?

 

[epsomred]

Oh, I don’t dispute for a second that we haven’t been good enough for large swathes of the last thirty years.

However, we have had at least three teams who would have won the league had marginal decisions not gone against them or, more crucially, for the other title challengers.

To take the most recent example- in 2013-14, we lost the title not through Gerrard’s slip and Crystanbul but by the referees robbing us in the consecutive matches against Manchester City and Chelsea over Christmas. These two matches have been debated to death on this board, so I won’t start that discussion again, but it only takes two or three matches (and only one decision in each) per season to affect the final table.

The beauty of it, from the wrongdoers’ perspective, is that it is so subtle that the masses don’t pick up on it. Why do you think the FA had to be dragged kicking and screaming into finally accepting VAR?

Ok so let me get this clear;

The premier league and FA don’t like LFC and have decided we will never win the league.

They have launched a secret operation , code name SUTS ( Stich Up The Scousers) to stop us.

Whenever the title race gets close, they launch operation SUTS and the 12 or so officials involved in 2 or 3 key matches are taken into a little room at the FA and told about the existence of SUTS and bribed to give decisions against us.

Because we have been close a couple of times now at least 24 officials plus the people making the payments know all about the existence of SUTS but nobody has ever gone to the press and everybody involved has gone along with it because they all hate us as well.

The FA are resisting VAR solely because it will undermine their operation SUTS. That’s how much they hate us. That much.

SUTS is so clever and subtle that us masses are too dumb to see it. Only you and a few select others have the high level referring knowledge and insight to really spot what is going on. I’m guessing your not a premier league referee but no matter, you know, you just know.

Seriously ? That’s what you actually believe ?

 

[Rambler]

Ok so let me get this clear;

The premier league and FA don’t like LFC and have decided we will never win the league.

They have launched a secret operation , code name SUTS ( Stich Up The Scousers) to stop us.

Whenever the title race gets close, they launch operation SUTS and the 12 or so officials involved in 2 or 3 key matches are taken into a little room at the FA and told about the existence of SUTS and bribed to give decisions against us.

Because we have been close a couple of times now at least 24 officials plus the people making the payments know all about the existence of SUTS but nobody has ever gone to the press and everybody involved has gone along with it because they all hate us as well.

The FA are resisting VAR solely because it will undermine their operation SUTS. That’s how much they hate us. That much.

SUTS is so clever and subtle that us masses are too dumb to see it. Only you and a few select others have the high level referring knowledge and insight to really spot what is going on. I’m guessing your not a premier league referee but no matter, you know, you just know.

Seriously ? That’s what you actually believe ?

Don't go there mate. You can never reason with conspiracy theorists. Thereby lies madness ;-)

They exist on every club's fan forums. City fans are obsessed with the fact that they win things despite the authorities and the officials doing their best to thwart them. They are convinced UEFA are never going to let them win the Champion's League.

 

[epsomred]

Don't go there mate. You can never reason with conspiracy theorists. Thereby lies madness ;-)

They exist on every club's fan forums. City fans are obsessed with the fact that they win things despite the authorities and the officials doing their best to thwart them. They are convinced UEFA are never going to let them win the Champion's

Yeah you’re probably right but they do annoy me.

 

[eng.amohd]

We were never good enough for a title winning team. 08/09 we dropped a lot of 2 points, 13/14 was a joke defensively, and so was last year. We never looked like champions until this season. We are strong on the attack and on the defence, have a world class manager, a winning mentality, good luck and an incredible character, not that one, a real incredible character.

 

[jaffod]

Oh, I don’t dispute for a second that we haven’t been good enough for large swathes of the last thirty years.

However, we have had at least three teams who would have won the league had marginal decisions not gone against them or, more crucially, for the other title challengers.

To take the most recent example- in 2013-14, we lost the title not through Gerrard’s slip and Crystanbul but by the referees robbing us in the consecutive matches against Manchester City and Chelsea over Christmas. These two matches have been debated to death on this board, so I won’t start that discussion again, but it only takes two or three matches (and only one decision in each) per season to affect the final table.

The beauty of it, from the wrongdoers’ perspective, is that it is so subtle that the masses don’t pick up on it. Why do you think the FA had to be dragged kicking and screaming into finally accepting VAR?

You know what's laughable mate? That so many flatly refuse to believe corruption can exist in the PL. Or that personal prejudices could have an effect. It doesn't take these meetings they like to bang on about where thousands of people turn up and discuss ways to shaft us. It literally only takes a couple of bad eggs.
Let's look at Howard Webb who refereed the Chelsea game in 2013. Ex-South Yorkshire policeman Howard Webb. It's well documented the decisions he got wrong in that match. The non-sending off of Eto'o after just 3 minutes and the refusal to give a blatant penalty for a foul on Suarez in the second half. This is the same Howard Webb who gave Manchester United a penalty for fuck all when they were 2-0 down to Spurs in 2008-09, the previous time we were fighting for the title.
Just weeks after the Chelsea game he 'refereed' us again at Arsenal in the FA Cup. He again refused to give Suarez a penalty at 2-1 down which to this day is the most blatant, nailed-on penalty I've seen not given. It was a fucking assault, he had a clear view of it from yards away. I defy anybody to logically explain how he failed to give it.
He possibly cost us the double that year, who knows? And yet people refuse to accept any sort of prejudice or corruption could possibly be involved. A league awash with dodgy cash, but no, not in the Premier League, no way.

 

[Zinedine Biscan]

We were never good enough for a title winning team. 08/09 we dropped a lot of 2 points, 13/14 was a joke defensively, and so was last year. We never looked like champions until this season. We are strong on the attack and on the defence, have a world class manager, a winning mentality, good luck and an incredible character, not that one, a real incredible character.

Agreed on this season being the most creditable title challenge certainly in my time supporting us (from mid-90s). I'd disagree slightly on 08/09, though. That was the season we stayed right in it despite our main source of goals, Nando, being injured for most of the season - he got appearances but predominantly coming back from an injury only to tweak something again. That season is a real case of 'what if' for me... it's not hard to imagine that with a fit and firing Nando at the height of his powers we'd have turned enough of those draws into wins to have turned a close 2nd place finish into a close 1st place finish.

 

[sms1986]

You know what's laughable mate? That so many flatly refuse to believe corruption can exist in the PL. Or that personal prejudices could have an effect. It doesn't take these meetings they like to bang on about where thousands of people turn up and discuss ways to shaft us. It literally only takes a couple of bad eggs.

Who has said that they don't believe corruption exists in the Premier League? Of course it can and it probably does, people are just saying that it's unlikely that there's some sort of conspiracy against Liverpool.

 

[Mascot88]

We were never good enough for a title winning team. 08/09 we dropped a lot of 2 points, 13/14 was a joke defensively, and so was last year. We never looked like champions until this season. We are strong on the attack and on the defence, have a world class manager, a winning mentality, good luck and an incredible character, not that one, a real incredible character.

I disagree. Look at the points totals. Rafa got 86 in 08/09. Brendan got 84 in 13/14.

Both of those totals would have been enough to win a league in a different season.

Those teams accumulated points totals that were good enough to win the title. On both those occasions another team did a bit better. That is nothing LFC can do anything about.

What those teams didn’t have was the circumstances to maintain that form across multiple seasons. This team looks like it could go a few seasons at this level, with key players committed and a solid structure underneath it.

 

[cynicaloldgit]

... us masses are too dumb to see it.

You said that, not me.

The rest is pretty much spot on, though.

 

[sms1986]

I disagree. Look at the points totals. Rafa got 86 in 08/09. Brendan got 84 in 13/14.

Both of those totals would have been enough to win a league in a different season.

Those teams accumulated points totals that were good enough to win the title. On both those occasions another team did a bit better. That is nothing LFC can do anything about.

13/14 we could have won it on the final day - we won as we needed to, but we also needed City to lose and they had an easy victory against West Ham.

 

[Mascot88]

You know what's laughable mate? That so many flatly refuse to believe corruption can exist in the PL. Or that personal prejudices could have an effect. It doesn't take these meetings they like to bang on about where thousands of people turn up and discuss ways to shaft us. It literally only takes a couple of bad eggs.
Let's look at Howard Webb who refereed the Chelsea game in 2013. Ex-South Yorkshire policeman Howard Webb. It's well documented the decisions he got wrong in that match. The non-sending off of Eto'o after just 3 minutes and the refusal to give a blatant penalty for a foul on Suarez in the second half. This is the same Howard Webb who gave Manchester United a penalty for fuck all when they were 2-0 down to Spurs in 2008-09, the previous time we were fighting for the title.
Just weeks after the Chelsea game he 'refereed' us again at Arsenal in the FA Cup. He again refused to give Suarez a penalty at 2-1 down which to this day is the most blatant, nailed-on penalty I've seen not given. It was a fucking assault, he had a clear view of it from yards away. I defy anybody to logically explain how he failed to give it.
He possibly cost us the double that year, who knows? And yet people refuse to accept any sort of prejudice or corruption could possibly be involved. A league awash with dodgy cash, but no, not in the Premier League, no way.

Howard Webb aside (who given his past associations should never have been referring LFC games), I think before accusations of corruption can stick you also have to rule out a variety of other factors.

- referees just being unfit and shit at their jobs.

- the ability of any human being to do the job they are being asked to do. The Owl was moaning about a handball in the run up the our fourth on Saturday, which he can’t possibly have seen. Yet the referee is expected to. The game moves incredibly quickly, and it will often take several replays for a pundit to form a judgement on what happened in an incident. You can’t blame refs for getting stuff wrong.

- the likelihood of unconscious bias. We moan about Liverpool decisions, but Man City have had some awful calls this year too. Sterling should have had four or five more penalties than he has. Every time I’ve watch City this season he has been hacked down in the box (dived a bit as well to be fair).

If you look at the data on penalties (last two seasons below) it does not make any sense.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/topErhalteneElfmeter/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=2017

https://www.transfermarkt.com/premier-league/topErhalteneElfmeter/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=2018

There should be a correlation where the best teams in the country also get the most penalties, simply because they spend the majority of their time attacking. It makes absolutely no sense for a team like palace to be right at the top of that table when the are managed by a shape and defender obsessed dinosaur like Woy. Look at Arsenal at the bottom. Seriously?

It’s looks a lot like a culture where referees are consistently trying to avoid the accusation of being biased towards the big clubs.

- finally what referee would want to purposefully make themselves look incompetent. England did not send a single referee to the last World Cup, such is the perceived lack of quality amongst them. Are we to believe that the refs are thinking it’s all worth it if the scousers don’t win the league?

 

[Rambler]

Interesting take on Howard Webb here https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/10644977/The-stats-that-prove-Howard-Webb-bottles-big-decisions.html

 

[eng.amohd]

I disagree. Look at the points totals. Rafa got 86 in 08/09. Brendan got 84 in 13/14.

Both of those totals would have been enough to win a league in a different season.

Those teams accumulated points totals that were good enough to win the title. On both those occasions another team did a bit better. That is nothing LFC can do anything about.

What those teams didn’t have was the circumstances to maintain that form across multiple seasons. This team looks like it could go a few seasons at this level, with key players committed and a solid structure underneath it.

I don't entirely disagree with you here. My point is, we always had that something missing. We usually wanted 'favours' and slip ups from other teams. I remember in 13/14 we didn't have any proper squad depth, our defense was very fragile, and we could never kill off a game. That whole season was summed up in Palace's game.

This season our fate is in our own hands, and we look good value for it. We practically aren't looking for a Man City slip up to give us a chance to win the title, it is the other way round.

 

[Mascot88]

I don't entirely disagree with you here. My point is, we always had that something missing. We usually wanted 'favours' and slip ups from other teams. I remember in 13/14 we didn't have any proper squad depth, our defense was very fragile, and we could never kill off a game. That whole season was summed up in Palace's game.

This season our fate is in our own hands, and we look good value for it. We practically aren't looking for a Man City slip up to give us a chance to win the title, it is the other way round.

Regarding slip ups from other teams, yeah that always helps. I always think about the Leicester season. Their one off season should have got them third/fourth. But it happened to coincide with a few of the big boys having off years.

Imagine being a Spurs fan that year. That was the one, lads. That was the one.

 

[Red_Jedi]

I think in every match, there are situations where from what the referee or assistant saw in a fraction of a second - they have to make a big call. Replays and analysis then make bad decisions look really bad.

But then there is also a human element of how you might feel towards a team or player. The season Leicester won the league - they were given lots of marginal decisions that helped them through - and majority of neutrals applauded.

I think with what has happened re Hillsborough, our club is seen in a different light and perhaps we weren’t getting some decisions before which we are getting now.

Either way, a team has to keep getting in there and keep forcing the ref to make decisions in order to win games.

In the palace game, mane got given handball when he didn’t even touch it - that should have been a pen. Salah gets accused of diving when sakhos hand was on his shoulder - wtf was it doing there? Is it allowed? And Robbo did use his hand to help towards the 4th goal - but that didn’t get seen.

But I certainly feel that our club is seen differently now, and with the manager we have with squad he’s put together - hopefully we will have enough to get over the line.

If anyone feels there is a conspiracy or corruptness with this league, my suggestion would be find something else to follow. For me, nothing compares to the drama and excitement of the premier league - especially when we are sitting top of the league.

 

[epsomred]

You said that, not me.

The rest is pretty much spot on, though.

Wow. Just wow.
My guess is you see have similar thoughts about the moon landings, 9/11, Diana and the Kennedy assassination.
Enjoy the rest of the season and hopefully you are wrong.

 

[cynicaloldgit]

My guess is you see have similar thoughts about the moon landings, 9/11, Diana and the Kennedy assassination.

Not necessarily, although it’s kind of flattering that you have nothing better to do than to think about what I’m thinking.

Agree with your last sentence, though. Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong this season but, judging by the evidence of the past, I shan’t be holding my breath.

 

[Mascot88]

Not necessarily, although it’s kind of flattering that you have nothing better to do than to think about what I’m thinking.

Agree with your last sentence, though. Nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong this season but, judging by the evidence of the past, I shan’t be holding my breath.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they always, always, collapse under their own weight. I remember arguing with a someone who didn’t believe we landed on the moon, and the point that it would have been structurally more difficult to fake the moon landing than it would have been to land on the bastard was entirely lost on her.

The various conspiracy theories I’ve read about LFC - whether that’s the FA, the PL, Referees, or whoever - are similar. How many people would need to be persuaded into silence or acceptance to pull it off.

Then you have the simple fact that virtually every other club thinks they are the victims of unfair treatment. I’ve read Spurs fans calling us media darlings, ffs. I’ve seen Utd fans cryarsing about referees.

 

[Red over the water]

Not simple, but not impossible. There must be someone who could offer more than Sturridge, Origi, Keita or Lallana in the final third, even on loan.

Not Keita. He’s a good player and we need to persevere with him.

Sturridge and Origi will probably go the way of Ings and Solanke, and I would imagine we will upgrade with someone like Werner in summer, hopefully. In the meantime we will take what they can give as needed, which isn’t a lot, but at the moment I’m grateful for the Sturridge goal at Chelsea and the Origi derby goal.

Lallana - No point bringing in a loan to replace him as he has faded away and the team has moved on while he has had a succession of injuries. I’m sure he will be moved on in summer.

We do need a bit more in the squad, but at the same time we are stronger than I’ve known in years. If there’s an opportunity in January to improve, I’m sure we will take it, but chances are it will be summer.

 

[jaffod]

Howard Webb aside (who given his past associations should never have been referring LFC games), I think before accusations of corruption can stick you also have to rule out a variety of other factors.

You're right about Webb, he should have been nowhere near our matches.

How about Anthony Taylor, Manchester born and still living there, refereeing a vital Man City v Liverpool match where the outcome will very possibly decide who wins the title?
One major decision to make in the whole game and he still gets it wrong despite having a clear view of it. I'm not going to blame him nor absolve him but what I will call into question is the motive behind his appointment in the first place. Anyone with any common sense can see the situation he's in, knowing full well he lives in the area. Is it a stretch of the imagination to think any of this played a part when deciding what to do with Kompany? Is it too much to think that it would have been a red for Lovren or VVD? I don't think it is.
Doesn't have to be a room full of thousands to make the decision to appoint him, just another cunt like Riley.

 

[sms1986]

You're right about Webb, he should have been nowhere near our matches.

How about Anthony Taylor, Manchester born and still living there, refereeing a vital Man City v Liverpool match where the outcome will very possibly decide who wins the title?
One major decision to make in the whole game and he still gets it wrong despite having a clear view of it. I'm not going to blame him nor absolve him but what I will call into question is the motive behind his appointment in the first place. Anyone with any common sense can see the situation he's in, knowing full well he lives in the area. Is it a stretch of the imagination to think any of this played a part when deciding what to do with Kompany? Is it too much to think that it would have been a red for Lovren or VVD? I don't think it is.
Doesn't have to be a room full of thousands to make the decision to appoint him, just another cunt like Riley.

He's overall been a good referee for us, though, we've won 18 of the 33 games he's officiated and drawn 8 of the rest. He's also given us 8 penalties, more than any other club has got from him.

I don't think the decision to appoint him is malicious (every other fanbase could easily say that about any referee they don't like).

 

[ILLOK]

He's overall been a good referee for us, though, we've won 18 of the 33 games he's officiated and drawn 8 of the rest. He's also given us 8 penalties, more than any other club has got from him.

I don't think the decision to appoint him is malicious (every other fanbase could easily say that about any referee they don't like).

It doesn't matter whether the appointment was malicious or whether Taylor was conciously bias or not, there are still obvious issues with having a referee who lives in GM (born in Whytenshawe) officiate that game.

Michael Oliver is by far and away the best referee in the league and there would have been no accusations of bias, he was the obvious choice to make. They could have swapped Oliver and Taylor for our Arsenal and City games which would've made a lot more sense.

 

[sms1986]

It doesn't matter whether the appointment was malicious or whether Taylor was conciously bias or not, there are still obivous flaws with having a referee who lives in GM (born in Whytenshawe) officiate that game.

I agree with that, it seems that because he says he supports Altrincham then he can officiate GM matches. It seems that there's a lot of inconsistency rather than outright malice -

However, they have been some glaring inconsistencies. Back in April, Kevin Friend was removed from Tottenham’s clash with Stoke because of his perceived support for Spurs’ title rivals Leicester City. Friend, a Bristol City fan, now lives in Leicestershire and had previously attended Foxes matches with friends.

Yet also in April Michael Oliver, a Newcastle fan, was allowed to take charge of a game involving the Magpies’ fellow relegation candidates Norwich City and Crystal Palace. Mike Dean, a Tranmere fan, was removed from refereeing the 2006 FA Cup final between Liverpool and West Ham because he lived in Wirral. Dean hasn’t refereed a single game involving Liverpool or Everton since.

But Taylor, who supports non-league Altrincham, is allowed to officiate matches involving both Manchester City and Manchester United.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/manchester-official-anthony-taylor-allowed-12005260

City fans don't seem to like him either - https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-city-manchester-united-referee-15378358.

Michael Oliver is by far and away the best referee in the league and there would have been no accusations of bias, he was the obvious choice to make. They could have swapped Oliver and Taylor for our Arsenal and City games which would've made a lot more sense.

I agree on Oliver.

 

[Perth Red]

I don't believe in any conspiracy theories for one simple reason - love them or hate them, all referees in top class football, throughout the major leagues of the world, have spent many years training, learning rules and adapting to new ones, going through assessments, learning their craft. Throughout the time of a Premier League level referee he would have spent hours and hours officiating, in the middle, running the line and as a fourth, games right through from amateur and junior all the way up to the top flight.
As an armchair pundit and one time poor player, I am amazed that they are as dedicated to their jobs as they are considering the crap they have to put up day in, day out.... and they don't even get to kick the ball!
They aren't perfect, of course, but who is? Maybe they have an underlying bias sometimes, maybe they aren't that good at their jobs (I am definitely not one to comment on that!), but overall I think they do a pretty good job most of the time and deserve our respect (except when they make a decision against us!).

 

[PaulRoJo]

Jaffod I admire your resolute support and remembering of the (many) wrongs and near things we've had since winning the league. I'm sanguine about bias being systemic (I remember feeling that Suarez was treated harshly re Evra cf. others but always felt that had more to do with Ferguson and media pressure) but do feel that the UK media seems generally pejorative toward the city of Liverpool; its ppl and the club. I now live in Australia, grew up in Ireland only living briefly in the (near) Merseyside so don't pretend to understand the intricacies but I've often heard it said that the media antipathy dates back to Thatcher and the mining strikes.

As a supporter I feel the most disappointment about (in order) 2014 and 2009 in the league and 2007 and 2018 in the CL. Four (obvious) results that I'd change to give us the 4 biggest prizes (the fifth would probably be the 99 CL final, as I'm a bit of a hater). That said 2005 blows them all away and 2001 was the most magical May. What lessened the blows (except 2014) was the feeling we'd have another chance - after the Chelsea game i thought I'd never see us win the league. Hopefully I am wrong but really until that is righted then the CL or anything else will be significantly less enjoyable.

 

[Billy Biskix]

It doesn't matter whether the appointment was malicious or whether Taylor was conciously bias or not, there are still obvious issues with having a referee who lives in GM (born in Whytenshawe) officiate that game.

Michael Oliver is by far and away the best referee in the league and there would have been no accusations of bias, he was the obvious choice to make. They could have swapped Oliver and Taylor for our Arsenal and City games which would've made a lot more sense.

I don't believe in conspiracy theories but it was a ridiculous decision to award Taylor that game.

In 2006 Mike Dean, who's from the Wirral, was dropped as FA Cup final ref when we made the final. Not because he supports us but because 'the fact that he is from the Wirral might lead to comment and debate which would place him under undue additional pressure'. Surely the same thing applied to Taylor in a game of this importance.

 

[sms1986]

I don't believe in conspiracy theories but it was a ridiculous decision to award Taylor that game.

In 2006 Mike Dean, who's from the Wirral, was dropped as FA Cup final ref when we made the final. Not because he supports us but because 'the fact that he is from the Wirral might lead to comment and debate which would place him under undue additional pressure'. Surely the same thing applied to Taylor in a game of this importance.

He's a Tranmere fan according to the article I posted above so should have been fine. Liverpool and Manchester are both in the North West, whilst West Ham are from London so WH fans might have felt he would be biased against them. Dean did referee a Derby match once in 2016 so it seems that geographical proximity plays a part - Taylor has refereed Manchester derbies before but City fans feel he's biased against them.

 

[Red_Jedi]

The latest TV Fixtures have just been released and it now looks like we will play AFTER city in 7 of the 9 match days.

This could ramp the pressure on us and all the small details do make the difference. I also found it interesting that the Dubai break had absolutely no report or pics from it. Its like Jurgen closed the outside world for a few days. Hopefully the whole team have been focused and know what they have to do.

I am getting nervous.

 

[Dane]

The latest TV Fixtures have just been released and it now looks like we will play AFTER city in 7 of the 9 match days.

It's all part of the conspiracy